How often do you go to write a comment or a post online, and after a bit of time spent writing you decide that it is crap and just delete it? Is this a good thing?
I do this a lot. I did it just now. I wrote about five paragraphs on a topic, deleted it and started over, wrote about five more and did the same thing. Got frustrated. Some thoughts that went through my mind:
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"this is not concise at all. It's disorganized and needs to be re-done"
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"this is going to trigger an emotional response and that will filter how they read it, so I'll be less likely to get interesting responses"
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"maybe I should just do this as a journal entry and keep it private"
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"these thoughts are worth something, and even if they aren't super cogent, maybe they can be a starting point for a collaborative thinking process"
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"that's dumb, nobody cares about my ramblings anyway. everyone has thoughts like this, mine aren't more important"
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etc.
So what usually ends up happening in instances like this is I just don't post. Other times, I get wrapped up in trying to make a post super-high quality and it comes across as over-produced... and if I've somehow triggered an emotional response then that aspect becomes an avenue for attack.
Does anyone else experience something comparable to this? Is it a good thing for helping to maintain quality content and discussions? If not, what are strategies to improve situations like these?
I do this a lot. Most of the time it's because I either decide I don't want to deal with replies or that what I'm typing doesn't really bring anything to the convo.
I often dread an orangered inbox on reddit, probably more than I get excited by the idea that someone saw my comments and acknowledged my existence. :P
This happens to me too. Sometimes I get excited because I know it's a reply to something good.
If I'm not expecting a reply, I always assume it's something profoundly negative. I've trained myself to avoid reading replies to my comments because I just expect toxicity from some random reddit user.
On Tildes I'm normally just excited. The vibe here is far more neutral and accepting, although there are hivemind activities here and there. Right now it's not quite large enough to matter, but I'm worried that in the future it'll be more prominent. I'm hoping that there will be a better way to sort comments soon.
I'm not sure how people get this sort of expectation. In the last week I've received:
What kind of comment replies do you get that you find upsetting?
It's more of a 'few bad apples' situation where just one or two directly harsh messages gives me the bias that I'll only ever get them.
Human brains hate being attacked, so since it's happened to me once before I try to avoid it. there was a time where I got nothing but harsh messages. I generally avoid commenting unless I can add something these days, and even then only if I feel like it's actually important. Most replies I get now are either neutral or partial jokes.
I'm curious what you are imagining about comment sorting. I know I'd like something like an "activity" sort, something that shows new comments that are nested in a few layers without having to scroll through the whole page to find them - but I'm not 100% sure how it would be best done.
That's basically how I feel. I think there is a better way than most votes, and activity would be a better metric but would also push new threads to the bottom where they might be ignored even if they are truly additive. It's a complicated issue that I don't know even know where to begin.
One of the more interesting posts I've read recently is from @BuckeyeSundae here, it's a bit long but worth the read.
The most interesting part to me, is where they go on about "following" in heading number 2.
I think an option like that would elegantly solve the ignored thread problem. We could even have a sort by most followers, or something similar.
Nearly every time I have an orangevelope I verbally say "who did I piss off this time." lolol
This same thought process effects me as well, and it actually tends to make me lurk a lot since the times I feel most compelled to comment are when I disagree or have a differing opinion but I tend to be very hesitant to rock the boat or get into an argument. I also don't want to do a poor job of presenting the opposing view point so I'll often just move on.
Yep. I'm not big on confrontation and I don't often know enough about a side I've taken to fully 100% cover myself incase I would need to so I often skip it. I've made a post where about midway through while I was researching I realized that I barely held the stance I was originally holding. It was rough but i had actually learned stuff, so that was nice I guess.
I decide to abandon the comment based on whether I actually care enough about the subject do deal with the replies.
Or sometimes it's because I want to post it anonymously. I don't like a big profile of data about myself out there in public.
A really great example of this is the other day on the daily tildes discussion post about quality content. I spent like two hours trying to come up with a useful comment. I started looking into trying to find a definition of "quality", got a bit wikihole'd, came up with a reasonable definition (tl;dr: utility), which spawned a few questions about goals and objectives of the userbase, and after about seven re-writes after that I decided that I was too exhausted and my contribution probably wasn't meaningful anyway. >_>
Hey, if you learned something of course it's valuable. You could have spent that time doing something else non-productive but by visiting this site, it made you really think. I would feel great if I inspired deep thought from a comment or a post that I create.
Yeah i suppose it's true that it wasn't an entire waste of time since it did help me to see discussions about quality content in a slightly different light.
Yeah, I had a similar experience to yours. I got about 5 minutes in, decided I didn't want to put in the effort required to source it all, and deleted it all. Also, I felt like whatever replies I would have gotten (if any), I already knew how it would turnout and didn't want to really discuss a topic I felt had been beaten to death.
I then tried to rewrite the comment to make it short and concise, but I couldn't, so I didn't.
oh yeah, citing sources is another big thing that bugs me. Like, I get it - it helps. I like when I am able to do it, and i recognize that not directly citing a source myself means a post or comment i make isn't as credible as one that has them - but when people treat conversations like rigorous academic debates and accuse you of crap for not having one handy for every single thing... and feeling a need to have one to back up every single thing you say... it's discouraging. People attacking a person for a mistake or a source they don't find credible is another thing that generates some apprehension.
I'm not saying it'd be wonderful if we had fake news and unsourced claims flying around all the time, but sometimes you just don't feel like being that anal about crap.
I agree, would rather we not be expected to whip out PhD level citations and articles for every post on Tilde or personal expression. Where is the line for [citation needed]? I don't think anyone could definitely say.
However, I would say the "need" for backup scales with the scope and content of a statement. Someone asking for sources for the following is being pedantic:
But someone asking for evidence to back this up is justified, in my opinion:
Also
Personal attacks and semantic nitpicking-for-the-sake-of-it? Uncool. But expounding on logical fallacies being made or why they don't find the source credible and rebutting with a different source, making a case for why said source is more accurate/is less biased/not pushing an agenda should not be considered an attack, I hope.
There are a few topics that I will always ask for sources on, but I generally agree with you.
And that's why we should have anonymisation of contents older than X time :)
On a serious note, knowing that my comments of, let's say, 1 month ago, would not be marked as mine anymore (only in the topic itself) would help people talk more about personal anecdotes and experiences and help fight the feeling of "talking with a screen".
I think the idea that was floated of allowing users to post comments from their main account with a masked username would help with that. You'd maintain your reputation/trust, but be able to share more personal details without it being linked to other posts you've made.
Sometimes I'm the vindictive asshole who writes a snarky, assholish reply.
I catch myself all the time getting into a comment war over something stupid. The other day I pointed out that Factoid and Fact don't mean the same thing, and I justified it with a definition from wikipedia. Of course one of the replies to my comment was a definition from Webster and an argument about how the semantics of my definition was wrong.
I thought about it for a day and I really wanted to come back to it and list sources and spend time making a well written comment, only to realize I was just trying to vindicate myself to some asshole I didn't know. I eventually just let it go by ignoring the user outright.
At the same time, I'll write a good reply that's neutral that is somewhat vindictive but also educational. I'll cite sources and spend time explaining myself, only to get someone who replies "you don't know what you're talking about, I'm an xyz and my whole life I've done abc and I think your sources are bunk but I won't refute them with actual data." I find that really upsetting, and just the notion that I'll get a response like that on Reddit will stop me from posting something.
As a final point: downvotes. I tend to go against the flow of popular trends. Not intentionally (although I used to, I catch myself hating something just because it's popular these days) but I understand when people think I do. I'll try to add to a conversation by bringing in an additional dissenting point and put work into my part of the discussion only to receive a hail of downvotes, even though I put in a lot of effort to stir discussion I just get a bunch of jerks downvoting me and replies that just tell me they think I'm wrong.
I'll write a really snarky sarcastic answer to someone, just to get it out of my system, then I will remove all the negative snark and sarcasm to my reply.
I know I will never really change the mind of the person I'm talking to, but I can change the mind of someone who hasn't picked a side yet, and I know they will be turned off by my overly aggressive asshole tendencies even if my logic is sound.
One thing I have done in the past is write a long, well-written comment with sources and neutral language and then ended it with "so fuck you, you fucking moron."
It was totally inappropriate, but it felt good. I think the person I responded to ended up with some downvotes and deleted their comment.
I wonder if this has to do with fundamental personality traits. Like, you sound like you are low in agreeability (or high in disagreeability, whatever). I find myself dissenting a lot of the time too - but I'm also high in negative emotion/neuroticism. :P
Deleted two replies so far while trying to reply to your comment.
I just don't care about most things. It seems like most people aren't interested in facts while I just want to know the truth of any given situation. I'm very neutral most of the time. I don't think I am a disagreeable person, I just don't go with the flow and I'm critical. I look at all situations with a critical eye and I only contribute to a subject after I know the truth of the situation. Most people seem to want to accept the status quo, whatever that might be. I don't want to accept it, I want to know the details and learn the best solution and not the solution everyone likes.
I know I might sound assholish but this:
Reminded me of this:
I consider it to be a cornerstone of understanding.
i didn't mean the disagreeable thing as an insult - it's just a personality trait to me, and it was probably a bit much to presume just from one comment from you. I mean, it's like if someone is the sort of person who doesn't rock the boat, that's agreeableness being dominant. If its someone who is more likely to question the status quo, that's disagreeableness (at least by my perception of the terms). Both kinds of behavior/traits have utility in different contexts.
I get what you mean now. I thought you meant that I just disagreed to disagree, whereas I don't. I only go against the status quo if there are reasons to do so, not just because it exists that way.
I certainly don't mind rocking the boat if there is good reason to do so, but I don't do it just to irritate people. I'm also not about to say that I don't get annoyed by trivial things, but I tend to let them go in order to further discussion.
I'm actually having the opposite problem. Half the time my comment gets deleted here, but It happens much less frequently on reddit. I think It's partly because I feel the audience here is a bit more "respectable" and I don't know if my comment will be high enough quality.
Nearly deleted this one too, but given the circumstances....
Don't worry about it. As long as the comment is polite and has more though put into it than
me too thanksit is welcome. All discussion is good.I'm curious if there is anything specific you have been doing to try to change your habit. Like affirming to yourself when you feel that compulsion that "tildes isn't like reddit, so it's safer to speak my mind" or something?
Thank you for sharing that. I hadn't thought about setting a time limit like that.
All the time.
I'd say it's a good thing, in that it's an exercise in articulating your thoughts. The brain is basically a magic box and the fact we can express our abstract feelings at all is a miracle. I think this point of yours is really valuable:
It's something I've tried to do more with ~, compared to some other sites I use. I know I'm not fantastic at conveying exactly what I mean, and I trip over nuance a lot, so I tend to be a little wordy or wish-washing in my language at times. But, in the end the comment is a reflection of myself and my mindset at the time of writing it, and if I feel it's relevant then what is there to lose, really?
I do this all the time. Either I realize I'm not really contributing anything useful to the conversation or decide it's not a debate worth getting myself into.
Yes, I probably delete twice as many comments as I end up posting. I think it's a good thing. It shows you're thinking like an editor, and concerned about the impact the post/comment will have on the reader.
I think you're right - at least in part. This comment itself is another product of that (I revised drafts of it thrice).
Part of me does feel that it may be somewhat disingenuous, like filtering authenticity e.g. what if part of that editor is masking vital components of my self from criticism and review - perhaps out of fear of harsh responses. But as long as I consciously try to be honest, the benefits of a clearly edited expression clearly outweigh the costs of a stream of consciousness ramble that most people just don't have time for at best. In a way, i guess taking it slow and doing a lot of that editing also gives more time for the ideas to stew and coalesce a bit.
In my case I think another component is a kind of internal battle I have between "If I don't engage and express myself, I am contributing to the problem of the silent majority, keeping a massive portion of our collective brain disengaged" vs. "that's narcissistic, my ideas are probably not actually worth anything"
Communication is weird.
edit: oh also, if i spent a lot of time on something, editing, revising, etc. and then it gets ignored or downvoted, that sucks. which i suspect further contributes to the lingering perception that my ideas are probably uninteresting or not valuable.
I'm constantly struggling with this. I think Tildes in particular has such lofty goals for content quality that I just automatically assume my opinion or perspective isn't interesting enough.
That said, I think of it as an opportunity to practice being in those situations. There are a lot of knowledgeable and experienced people on this site--it would be a complete waste to not engage with them, even if I'm the newb who doesn't fully understand, or doesn't have much to contribute yet.
It's like that saying uh, if you're the smartest person in the room you need to pick a different room. Or whatever that saying is. It's good practice for offline life.
Many times. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I honestly find it a bit rude for someone to quote the unedited post just to say "Aha!' in certain situations. For example in one forum I was a part of I made a small error in a discussion, so I promptly edited that post. Few minutes later another user quoted that unedited post and said
The entire discussion then turned into the error rather than the topic itself.
I rarely remove a comment altogether. I do edit my post many times to make my intent clearer or more friendly towards other posters, or to fix grammar or spelling mistakes (my main language is not English, so it happens from time to time).
Oftentimes when I post something, I read my own post again after hitting the post button, and spot something that is incorrect, or might give a message I did not intend to send, so I quickly try to edit it to keep the discussion going in a good manner. (That doesn't mean all my posts are perfect, sadly.)
The vast majority of the time. I start to type up a post, realize that I can't quite convey my thoughts properly over text, and delete the post.
All the time. As a matter of fact, I can't remember if it was you or someone else, but I was writing up a response to one your posts, I decided it wasn't very cohesive or structured, and decided I'd be better off not making a reply. I believe there's still a dangling comment somewhere. And on the post with the youtuber and the men, that one, I rewrote my comment like 5 times because I didn't want to seem controversial or impolite, only to be told off for making it too polite. Life is a balancing act and one I at least often get wrong, so I've learned to care about it less. So I guess that means, I don't edit my or delete my posts as much as I used to, and I think it's a good idea to ignore the feeling sometimes. Damn this post is kind of rambly, maybe I should... rethink it...
lol, i really appreciate you sharing this and not deleting it. So meta. :P
Maybe we should adopt a forgiving attitude about internet comments. I think on reddit it's a very confrontational argumentative situation. Maybe this is due to it being all text-based. But that game of trust thing said that people make mistakes, and introducing a component of forgiveness of potential mistakes seemed to help a lot.
Your post is fine.
On other websites, I do this way too frequently. Reddit in particular tends to be pretty toxic and if you so much as breathe in the wrong direction, they'll jump down your throat, bombard you with downvotes, and accuse you whispering secrets to the Illuminati.
Here on Tildes, I feel like I can be more open in discussions without worry because the community is being built around civility and constructive discourse, so I only very rarely find myself deleting my comment, and usually if I do, it's because I find that the structure of my comment is garbage and I want to rewrite it for better clarity and readability.
But I mean, at least some of them do whisper to the illuminati... right? ;)
I'm glad you're here and that you feel more comfortable expressing yourself.
Absolutely. Just did, in fact. Going to post the rest even though I'm uncomfortable with it.
I'm here to feel a sense of community which has been lacking for me IRL. I bring all of my insecurities from failed attempts at community building. This causes me to be overly cautious and I end up saying nothing.
The other side of this is when someone else has already said the thing I was totally feeling, and said it more succinctly than I likely would have. Then I wonder if I actually have anything worthy to offer - which, I feel like I should. I'm absolutely middle-aged (experience) and still open to change.
I want to be a part of a community that I can contribute to meaningfully. I won't be able to dedicate 4-6 hours a day to it. I'm married with kids and work full time. I still want to be involved.
Sometimes I realize I just don't have any good arguments to support what I'm saying. So I just scrap it. I see that as a good thing.
I've gone to the next step, which is just not giving enough fucks to start writing in the first place.
All the time. I did it twice in fact today. Invariably it's because I think it'll just turn into an "internet argument" and it's just not worth my time and effort. Discussion Ok - but argument, nope.
Indeed. On reddit i feel like i am less incentivized to go into arguments because i know I will just be downvoted and mocked. At least on tildes there is a semblance of trying to go into disagreements without much shit-flinging.