16 votes

Anyone interested in learning a bit more about the Catalan situation? AMA

Hey all,

I'm Catalan (expat) and many of my friends in the USA or other countries in Europe tend to ask me a lot about the Catalan situation: independence, Puigdemont's extradition, political prisoners, police brutality, etc. I figured maybe some users here will be interested too?

I consider myself equidistant to both the independentist nationalist, and the centralist nationalist movements (I'm more anti-borders than pro-borders, and I don't recognize the authority of any state), so I figure many of my responses will annoy everybody in Spain equally :-) . That said I would appreciate it if we all keep the discussion civil and as soon as I see flame wars I will stop answering questions.

To my fellow Spaniards/Catalans. Feel free to chime in, contradict me with facts and opinions (I will probably not argue with you, I'm actually eager to learn more about other points of view in this matter), answer questions that I haven't answered for lack of knowledge, etc. Hell even if you are not from Spain but you know about it feel free to give me your two cents.

Hope we get interesting discussions and we all learn from this!

3 comments

  1. [2]
    eyybby
    Link
    I would love to hear this. I found a lot of parallels between the Basque country and the North of Ireland when I was reading about it and would be very interested to see if similar things can be...

    I would love to hear this. I found a lot of parallels between the Basque country and the North of Ireland when I was reading about it and would be very interested to see if similar things can be found with Catalonia (though I doubt it!)

    3 votes
    1. wise
      Link Parent
      I have to be honest with you I don't know enough about the Basque country and North of Ireland to tell you if there are parallels. We do have our own language (although it is not as different as...

      I have to be honest with you I don't know enough about the Basque country and North of Ireland to tell you if there are parallels. We do have our own language (although it is not as different as Basque) and history (although it has been more tied to Castilian history than the Basque), but as far as I know the tax arrangements are different, as well as the course of the independence movement (we did have Terra Lliure at some point, which was a militant group who shot some people but it was never at the level of ETA or IRA).

      On the other hand there are some who claim that the Basque language is more artificial than the Catalan and Sabino de Arana (father of Basque nationalism, IIRC) was a bit of a racist. But then again our new president, Quim Torra, and one of the politicians who are in prison, Oriol Junqueras, have said some dumb shit about Catalan genetics vs. Spanish genetics lol.

      Catalan independentists definitely feel (or felt, when it was more of a fringe movement) an admiration for Basque independentists or Irish independentists. There was a blog post by a catalan equivalent of "The Onion" talking about how this Catalan independentist teenage boy lost his girlfriend to a Basque independentist teenage boy and had now turned full PPero lol (supporter of Partido Popular, the mainstream conservative party in Spain). Which is of course parody but there is (or was) a bit of one-sided infatuation with the kale borroka and those rebel groups. I remember my maulet (the most radical Catalanist young groups when I was younger) friends calling the Basque young left abertzales their "brothers" but never heard anything similar from the young rebel groups in Basque Country or Ireland.

      I think (AFAIK) you'll find more parallelisms with Scotland than Ireland, maybe.

      Did anything I said make sense?

      4 votes
  2. [2]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. wise
      Link Parent
      These are good questions all of them. Here's my point of view: I think Capital is a big motivator, for sure. The socialist movements like CUP or ERC have either become smaller or allied with the...

      These are good questions all of them. Here's my point of view:

      1. I think Capital is a big motivator, for sure. The socialist movements like CUP or ERC have either become smaller or allied with the conservative PdC to achieve the goal of independence. I come from a low income area (and part of my family is Roma) and honestly when I hear some politicians talking about how great independence will be but "we may have to collectively sacrifice a bit the first few years", it makes my blood boil. They will not have to sacrifice shit, just like they didn't in 2008. That said there are two points I want to make on the Capital issue: I think CUP brought a very refreshing point of view to independence desires and for a while I supported them. Also, although the Catalan government is corrupt, it is not so at the same level as other regional governments, and I understand the angst of some Catalan citizens (who are not by any means well-being) seeing that their education, healthcare, security deteriorates while other regions spend the money they receive either in big time corruption or in bandages to a big problem (like subsidizing mining and agriculture instead of investing in reeducating the workers). I understand it especially in the context of all the insults hurdled around from both sides. In the end however, there is also Nationalism there; our history, language, traditions, are different from the rest of Spain. But the weird thing is that Aragon has their own traditions, Andalusia also, etc.
        There was a very nice article by Carles Boix (a pro independence professor in Princeton) written in Spanish about how the tension came from a bimodality in terms of power and desires. Spain has always held the cultural and military power (with the "discovery" of America, the reconquista, etc.) and has always desired to see itself as a big nation, very centralized, very unified, with any and all appendages a part of it (similar to France). Catalonia has always held an economical power (ports, industry) and has always desired to see itself also as a nation, and at most part of a coalition of nations which is Spain (similar to Switzerland). Since neither has been able to survive without the other, neither has been able to impose their model. Now I'm not sure how true this is but I found it an interesting analysis.

      2. Huh, I think that's political manoeuvring. I honestly think that strategically Rajoy was better than Puigdemont, and now the Catalan government is scrambling for legitimacy within their supporters and in the international community (this I say from a purely Machiavellian perspective, I definitely think they have been very incompetent in terms of taking care of their country). I'm not sure what the right decision is because the people in Catalonia still see Puigdemont as the legitimate president, and PdC won many votes with this slogan. Sanchez is now the president so the strategies may shift. But I'm very bad at reading this stuff so I have no idea what is going to happen.

      3. Yeah, but here's the debate: By which authority aren't those other regions allowed to separate? I think that common-sense wise it is a bad decision to include more borders in an already fragmented Europe, but if we believe in democracy (which I don't, not in this democracy of manipulation and post-truth at least), it is difficult for me to justify that regions don't have a right to self-determination. The question is whether each of the regions or the central government has sovereignty, and that is in my opinion the fight that is being fought. So if the central government doesn't want more regions to separate, it has to prove that they need to be united. But it is not doing that, in my opinion.

      4. Well the oppression game is being played from both sides, and brought up when they are interested in it. There is no justification for what Guardia Civil and Policia Nacional did on Oct 1, and I was there actually, to protect my family and friends if things went south. But come on, Mossos d'Esquadra attacked catalan citizens during demonstrations against capitalists. They oppress continuously the Roma community, the immigrants, the "manteros", etc. Schools in certain parts of Catalonia do some shifty stuff too. And Catalans have always (as long as I have been here) made fun of Andalusians, Extremenyos, Murcians... Calling them lazy, or dirty. And yeah, I think it is getting worse. And unfortunately from the other side as well. I hear from Catalans working in Madrid (and these are not independentists) that their subordinates complain to HR that they won't work under a Catalan. There are calls for product boycott in both sides. My point is, coming back to my previous response, that while both sides want to paint this as a "freedom/democracy vs. oppression" situation of the people vs. the state, I see it more as a fight of sovereignty between two states, in which yes, one of them is more powerful than the other, but I don't see it as a fully grassroots movement (again, with the notable exception of CUP, but they have lost a lot of support in the last elections IIRC).

      Let me know if I can clarify something or if you disagree!

      3 votes