27 votes

Topic deleted by author

9 comments

  1. [9]
    nic
    Link
    General reminder: When you encounter an accident, avoid moving the victims. Unless the victim is in imminent danger from fire or something else, leave the person in place until emergency services...

    General reminder: When you encounter an accident, avoid moving the victims. Unless the victim is in imminent danger from fire or something else, leave the person in place until emergency services arrive. For cyclists, leave the helmet on.

    7 votes
    1. [2]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. nic
        Link Parent
        Good assumption.

        Good assumption.

        3 votes
    2. [7]
      zaarn
      Link Parent
      For Motorcyclists the German ADAC (General German Automobile Club) recommends removing the helmet as it allows putting them in a stable position with free airways and doesn't risk the person...

      For Motorcyclists the German ADAC (General German Automobile Club) recommends removing the helmet as it allows putting them in a stable position with free airways and doesn't risk the person throwing up and choking on it. Though one should be very very careful when removing them in order to not move the neck too much. They also recommend removing people from the vehicle if possible (ie, the person is not trapped), as first aid is more important than avoiding other damage.

      edit: Link to their First Aid Page: https://www.adac.de/verkehr/verkehrsmedizin/erste-hilfe-verkehrsunfall/

      3 votes
      1. [6]
        vakieh
        Link Parent
        If they're recommending that they are years out of date and will end up killing people. You should NOT remove the helmet unless the person is not breathing or you need to control bleeding from the...

        If they're recommending that they are years out of date and will end up killing people. You should NOT remove the helmet unless the person is not breathing or you need to control bleeding from the head or some other crucial need - you can get them into the recovery position perfectly well with it on, and tilting the head back to open their airway while the helmet is on does exactly the same thing as with it off. You can tell if a person is breathing while wearing their helmet the same as if they are not wearing it.

        There are numerous occasions where people have severely damaged skulls or necks who lived up until the helmet was removed. Here is an actual first aid organisation's advice.

        3 votes
        1. [5]
          zaarn
          Link Parent
          The article I linked is from 2018 and ADAC is a well respected organization that offers first aid and driving courses for people as refreshers or beyond the course you need to take for the drivers...

          The article I linked is from 2018 and ADAC is a well respected organization that offers first aid and driving courses for people as refreshers or beyond the course you need to take for the drivers license in germany (the course I took, taking place at a clinic, also recommended removing people from the vehicle and removing the helmet to administer first aid). If you just move the helmet back and the injured ends up throwing up, they will choke on it unless their mouth is tilted towards the ground to let bodily fluids flow out naturally.

          2 votes
          1. [4]
            vakieh
            Link Parent
            I didn't say your article was out of date, I said the organisation was out of date. They are not a first aid organisation, they are a driving club, and they are wrong. The recovery position is...

            I didn't say your article was out of date, I said the organisation was out of date. They are not a first aid organisation, they are a driving club, and they are wrong.

            The recovery position is explicitly designed to ensure that if a person vomits that they do not choke. It keeps airways open and is the safest position for an unconscious person to be in - in this position their mouth is angled to the ground, but only slightly to place minimum pressure on the chest (and therefore the lungs).

            1 vote
            1. [3]
              zaarn
              Link Parent
              The organisation is certainly not just any driving club, they're one of the largest clubs in europe and they do a lot of work towards road safety and accident prevention, they offer a wide array...

              The organisation is certainly not just any driving club, they're one of the largest clubs in europe and they do a lot of work towards road safety and accident prevention, they offer a wide array of first aid and driving safety courses as well as operate the largest medical emergency helicopter network in europe. Their helicopters can reach any point in germany within 15 minutes and provide emergency room care until a hospital or clinic is reached.

              A normal first aid course and their guide show the proper recovery position and several articles mention that removing the helmet is better for first aid chances than any damage it could possibly cause.

              There is an article here https://www.t-online.de/auto/technik/id_41993450/ratgeber-motorrad-nach-unfall-den-helm-abnehmen-.html that lists the procedure recommended by the ADAC;

              • Only remove helmet if unconscious or wants it removed
              • Remove helmet with partner; one stabilizes the neck, the other carefully removes the helmet
              • Immediately put into recovery position and/or begin CPR

              The reasoning in the article: The helmet being on could prevent blood flowing to the brain, it hinders CPR and risks the injured to choke on their vomit.

              1 vote
              1. [2]
                vakieh
                Link Parent
                Have a source for those? St John's Ambulance service (where I do my first aid training) as I linked states do not remove unless absolutely necessary, and every source in English I have found says...

                Have a source for those? St John's Ambulance service (where I do my first aid training) as I linked states do not remove unless absolutely necessary, and every source in English I have found says the same. 1 2 3 4 5

                Everything I know about airways and how they stay open says there is zero need to remove the helmet to maintain them, and removing it can exacerbate very common injuries - so why on earth would you remove it?

                2 votes
                1. zaarn
                  Link Parent
                  /shrug tbh, all my german sources tell me to remove it, including the ADAC and my first aid course I took a while back. The common reasoning I've come across all of them is that it can exacerbate...

                  /shrug tbh, all my german sources tell me to remove it, including the ADAC and my first aid course I took a while back. The common reasoning I've come across all of them is that it can exacerbate common injuries but gives the motorcyclist a better survival chance.

                  1 vote