27 votes

The human beings behind the statistics

Topic deleted by author

10 comments

  1. [9]
    nic Link
    General reminder: When you encounter an accident, avoid moving the victims. Unless the victim is in imminent danger from fire or something else, leave the person in place until emergency services...

    General reminder: When you encounter an accident, avoid moving the victims. Unless the victim is in imminent danger from fire or something else, leave the person in place until emergency services arrive. For cyclists, leave the helmet on.

    8 votes
    1. [2]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. nic Link Parent
        Good assumption.

        Good assumption.

        3 votes
    2. [7]
      zaarn Link Parent
      For Motorcyclists the German ADAC (General German Automobile Club) recommends removing the helmet as it allows putting them in a stable position with free airways and doesn't risk the person...

      For Motorcyclists the German ADAC (General German Automobile Club) recommends removing the helmet as it allows putting them in a stable position with free airways and doesn't risk the person throwing up and choking on it. Though one should be very very careful when removing them in order to not move the neck too much. They also recommend removing people from the vehicle if possible (ie, the person is not trapped), as first aid is more important than avoiding other damage.

      edit: Link to their First Aid Page: https://www.adac.de/verkehr/verkehrsmedizin/erste-hilfe-verkehrsunfall/

      3 votes
      1. [6]
        vakieh Link Parent
        If they're recommending that they are years out of date and will end up killing people. You should NOT remove the helmet unless the person is not breathing or you need to control bleeding from the...

        If they're recommending that they are years out of date and will end up killing people. You should NOT remove the helmet unless the person is not breathing or you need to control bleeding from the head or some other crucial need - you can get them into the recovery position perfectly well with it on, and tilting the head back to open their airway while the helmet is on does exactly the same thing as with it off. You can tell if a person is breathing while wearing their helmet the same as if they are not wearing it.

        There are numerous occasions where people have severely damaged skulls or necks who lived up until the helmet was removed. Here is an actual first aid organisation's advice.

        3 votes
        1. [5]
          zaarn Link Parent
          The article I linked is from 2018 and ADAC is a well respected organization that offers first aid and driving courses for people as refreshers or beyond the course you need to take for the drivers...

          The article I linked is from 2018 and ADAC is a well respected organization that offers first aid and driving courses for people as refreshers or beyond the course you need to take for the drivers license in germany (the course I took, taking place at a clinic, also recommended removing people from the vehicle and removing the helmet to administer first aid). If you just move the helmet back and the injured ends up throwing up, they will choke on it unless their mouth is tilted towards the ground to let bodily fluids flow out naturally.

          2 votes
          1. [4]
            vakieh Link Parent
            I didn't say your article was out of date, I said the organisation was out of date. They are not a first aid organisation, they are a driving club, and they are wrong. The recovery position is...

            I didn't say your article was out of date, I said the organisation was out of date. They are not a first aid organisation, they are a driving club, and they are wrong.

            The recovery position is explicitly designed to ensure that if a person vomits that they do not choke. It keeps airways open and is the safest position for an unconscious person to be in - in this position their mouth is angled to the ground, but only slightly to place minimum pressure on the chest (and therefore the lungs).

            1 vote
            1. [3]
              zaarn Link Parent
              The organisation is certainly not just any driving club, they're one of the largest clubs in europe and they do a lot of work towards road safety and accident prevention, they offer a wide array...

              The organisation is certainly not just any driving club, they're one of the largest clubs in europe and they do a lot of work towards road safety and accident prevention, they offer a wide array of first aid and driving safety courses as well as operate the largest medical emergency helicopter network in europe. Their helicopters can reach any point in germany within 15 minutes and provide emergency room care until a hospital or clinic is reached.

              A normal first aid course and their guide show the proper recovery position and several articles mention that removing the helmet is better for first aid chances than any damage it could possibly cause.

              There is an article here https://www.t-online.de/auto/technik/id_41993450/ratgeber-motorrad-nach-unfall-den-helm-abnehmen-.html that lists the procedure recommended by the ADAC;

              • Only remove helmet if unconscious or wants it removed
              • Remove helmet with partner; one stabilizes the neck, the other carefully removes the helmet
              • Immediately put into recovery position and/or begin CPR

              The reasoning in the article: The helmet being on could prevent blood flowing to the brain, it hinders CPR and risks the injured to choke on their vomit.

              1 vote
              1. [2]
                vakieh Link Parent
                Have a source for those? St John's Ambulance service (where I do my first aid training) as I linked states do not remove unless absolutely necessary, and every source in English I have found says...

                Have a source for those? St John's Ambulance service (where I do my first aid training) as I linked states do not remove unless absolutely necessary, and every source in English I have found says the same. 1 2 3 4 5

                Everything I know about airways and how they stay open says there is zero need to remove the helmet to maintain them, and removing it can exacerbate very common injuries - so why on earth would you remove it?

                2 votes
                1. zaarn Link Parent
                  /shrug tbh, all my german sources tell me to remove it, including the ADAC and my first aid course I took a while back. The common reasoning I've come across all of them is that it can exacerbate...

                  /shrug tbh, all my german sources tell me to remove it, including the ADAC and my first aid course I took a while back. The common reasoning I've come across all of them is that it can exacerbate common injuries but gives the motorcyclist a better survival chance.

                  1 vote
  2. Nmg (edited ) Link
    What I find crazy is that what you have described is entirely preventable. People call car collisions accidents, as if nothing can be done to stop them. The fact of the matter is, they're entirely...

    What I find crazy is that what you have described is entirely preventable.

    People call car collisions accidents, as if nothing can be done to stop them. The fact of the matter is, they're entirely preventable. Our society just lacks the political will to pressure traffic and civil engineers and licensing agencies to actually design our streets and change policy with safety in mind instead of speed.

    Every time a plane crashes, a huge investigative team is sent out to determine the cause, and future planes are designed to prevent such crashes from happening again. 1.25 million people each year die in car crashes worldwide, and it is the leading cause of death for younger people. Just imagine if the same sort of investigative team was sent to determine the cause of a crash and implement safety improvements. We already have luxury cars that are able to resist collisions. Now imagine if there were regulations that every new model of car had to have the same exact collision avoidance system installed. Perhaps some of the people in the collision you saw would still be alive today.


    EDIT: I saw the comment that you later decided to delete, and thus I just wanted to add the following...

    I recently saw a video posted on reddit of a cyclist in New York being completely destroyed by a red light runner. Poof, there disappears that persons life. I often see myself in their shoes. That could be me, I bike all the time. But I think most people don't think that way. Oh, another accident on the highway, I am late to work. Oh, some dumb teenagers playing stupid games and getting stupid prizes. But of course we know that such thought patterns are fatalistic.

    I think the sort of realization you had with your experience is a necessary part of making streets safer. Engineering and design do not exist in vacuums. They are guided by value systems. And if that value system is cars go fast, and some people just happen to die in "accidents," then that is exactly the kind of society we will have.

    2 votes