30 votes

I just got back from a seven-day Buddhist silent meditation retreat. Ask me anything (or share your own experiences of meditation retreat)

As I mentioned in the screenless day thread

I was at Cloud Mountain in the woods between Seattle and Portland. This was my 3rd retreat there, and the longest that I've sat - the previous two that I attended were 2 days and 5 days respectively.

There were two teachers on the retreat, fully ordained Buddhist nuns in the Thai Forest tradition of Theravada Buddhism. Ayya Santacitta and Ayya Santussika were both wonderful.

I spent 8-10 hours a day meditating, split between sitting and walking meditation. Other than that, I ate 2 or 3 really tasty vegetarian meals a day, skipping dinner on the last few days (Buddhist monastics were doing intermittent fasting way before it was cool - only eating between sunrise and mid-day). Dinner is always served, soup and bread, but the monks don't eat, and some retreatants skip it as well. And...not much else. Eat, meditate, sleep, repeat.

It was very well done with respect to covid safety - we all wore masks and social distanced. Everyone on the retreat was vaccinated (and this retreat center is making it a requirement starting in September). They took a vote at the beginning that gave us the option of removing our masks since everyone was vaccinated, but the vote to take them off had to be unanimous and it wasn't, so we all continued to wear them while indoors.

ping: @kfwyre and @cfabbro

19 comments

  1. [4]
    BlindCarpenter
    Link
    were you bored at any point and wishing it would speed up and finish sooner?

    were you bored at any point and wishing it would speed up and finish sooner?

    7 votes
    1. [3]
      spit-evil-olive-tips
      Link Parent
      yes, I certainly noticed feelings of impatience / restlessness / desire for a changed situation. it happened at sort of a fractal level, too. an individual sitting meditation was typically 45...

      yes, I certainly noticed feelings of impatience / restlessness / desire for a changed situation.

      it happened at sort of a fractal level, too. an individual sitting meditation was typically 45 minutes. my daily meditation practice at home is only 10-15 minutes. so midway through a lot of the 45-minute sits, my legs & knees would start to feel a bit sore and ask if we could go out for a walk. thoughts of "is it over yet?" were common while that happened.

      most of the time, I was sitting cross-legged on the Ikea ottoman I use as my daily meditation spot and which I brought to the retreat with me. I would sometimes shift to have my feet on the floor, or stand up and meditate standing instead. the nuns encouraged this for anyone who found it useful, and actually made a point of calling them "still" and "movement" meditations instead of "sitting" and "walking" meditations as I've heard them called on previous retreats. I also skipped a few of the scheduled sitting meditations in order to go for a long walk. this is also encouraged - you can go walking during the sits, or keep sitting during the walks. the schedule is very much an open-ended suggestion.

      at a different zoom level of the fractal, I noticed that in the last couple days of the retreat, the planning neurons in my brain got busy and I started to have thoughts about what I was going to do this weekend (I got home from the retreat Friday afternoon, and had this weekend to decompress before going back to work on Monday). at one point, for example, I considered briefly turning my phone on so I could schedule a Saturday or Sunday appointment at a sauna I go to, since day-of appointments tend to be harder to book. so, not quite wishing for it to be over, but starting to shift out of the retreat mindset and back into "what am I going to do tomorrow?" mode.

      10 votes
      1. [2]
        elcuello
        Link Parent
        A friend of mine did the whole fasting two weeks prior and traveled to another country to try this and had to quit after two days because his knees hurt so bad. It's something a lot of...

        so midway through a lot of the 45-minute sits, my legs & knees would start to feel a bit sore and ask if we could go out for a walk. thoughts of "is it over yet?" were common while that happened.

        A friend of mine did the whole fasting two weeks prior and traveled to another country to try this and had to quit after two days because his knees hurt so bad. It's something a lot of participants don't consider when signing up I've heard. What I don't get is why can't you just meditate in the position you want? Everybody has a bad back/knee/shoulder etc. and this "power through" meditation mentality I just don't get and it feels a bit exclusive tbh.

        3 votes
        1. spit-evil-olive-tips
          Link Parent
          you certainly can, or should be able to. some Buddhist traditions or meditation centers may be stricter than others in this regard. I've never heard anything but encouragement for meditating in...

          What I don't get is why can't you just meditate in the position you want?

          you certainly can, or should be able to. some Buddhist traditions or meditation centers may be stricter than others in this regard. I've never heard anything but encouragement for meditating in the best position for your body, but I'm a data point of one, both in terms of myself and in terms of how many places I've meditated with other people where it's mattered.

          at the retreat center I went to, one of the etiquette guidelines they posted for the meditation hall was to not wear any nylon or gore-tex clothing that can rustle when you move, but that's it. as I said in another comment, something these nuns did that I hadn't heard before was rename "sitting" and "walking" meditations to "still" and "movement" to emphasize the inclusivity and not-one-size-fits-all nature of the practice.

          Everybody has a bad back/knee/shoulder etc. and this "power through" meditation mentality I just don't get and it feels a bit exclusive tbh.

          agreed. I think any exclusivity about meditation is counter-productive. absolutely anyone can meditate.

          there is one aspect related to "power through" that I think can be helpful or useful, when practiced skillfully. when my legs or knees or back starts to hurt when I'm meditating, I don't always shift my legs or stand up right away. I will sometimes sit there with the discomfort, observing it for some amount of time.

          I would certainly never do this long enough that I thought I might run the risk of causing permanent damage, but in small doses, it's an interesting aspect of meditation. the pain/discomfort is real, but it's also temporary, and it exists in a part of a brain that is not my "self". I can examine it while meditating in a way that I can't do as easily if I'm say, exercising and feel discomfort or pain.

          4 votes
  2. [3]
    Grendel
    Link
    I hope this isn't rude to ask but what does something like this cost to attend?

    I hope this isn't rude to ask but what does something like this cost to attend?

    6 votes
    1. spit-evil-olive-tips
      Link Parent
      @tomf is correct on the pricing. that $500ish for a 7 day retreat seems to be about typical. they offer three price tiers for every retreat because it lets them offer a lower price to people who...

      @tomf is correct on the pricing.

      that $500ish for a 7 day retreat seems to be about typical. they offer three price tiers for every retreat because it lets them offer a lower price to people who can't afford more, and the option to pay a bit extra for people who can afford it and want to help subsidize the others.

      the fee goes entirely to the cost of food & lodging - the nuns do not accept any of it. instead, they accept offerings (dana) at the end of the retreat.

      4 votes
    2. tomf
      Link Parent
      not the op, but this was $490 / $560 / $630 + an optional donation. The three levels are subsidized, sustaining, and supporting. The donation is called 'dana'

      not the op, but this was $490 / $560 / $630 + an optional donation. The three levels are subsidized, sustaining, and supporting. The donation is called 'dana'

      3 votes
  3. [2]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. spit-evil-olive-tips
      Link Parent
      the theme of the retreat was the four vipallasas, or distortions of the mind: seeing impermanent things as permanent seeing suffering as pleasant seeing not-self things as self seeing...

      the theme of the retreat was the four vipallasas, or distortions of the mind:

      • seeing impermanent things as permanent

      • seeing suffering as pleasant

      • seeing not-self things as self

      • seeing not-beautiful things as beautiful

      I was originally attracted to Buddhism to deal with depression & anxiety, and two of those distortions (permanence and self) seem particularly relevant to that. so a change I hope I experience as a consequence of this retreat is more mindfulness that any depressed or anxious thoughts I experience are a) temporary and b) generated by a part of my mind that is not my "self".

      an analogy I used when talking to a friend about this is that I'm sitting on a park bench, and anxiety comes and sits next to me. the anxiety is not me - it's there next to me, and I'm able to not attach my "self" to it. and at some point it'll get up and walk away, and I'll still be there sitting on the bench.

      3 votes
  4. [3]
    Icarus
    Link
    How were you feeling in the hours after you returned back to normal civilization?

    How were you feeling in the hours after you returned back to normal civilization?

    5 votes
    1. [2]
      spit-evil-olive-tips
      Link Parent
      my previous two retreats, I was the driver of a carpool, and so I had company on the drive back. that made for what I think was a more gentle introduction back into the real world, since me and my...

      my previous two retreats, I was the driver of a carpool, and so I had company on the drive back. that made for what I think was a more gentle introduction back into the real world, since me and my two carpool-mates could discuss what happened on the retreat.

      this drive back, it was quite rainy, and I hit the beginnings of Friday afternoon rush hour traffic as I got back to Seattle. I fell pretty quickly into my old habits of mind while driving alone, of seeing someone do something stupid or reckless or careless and saying to myself, sometimes out loud, "oh you fucking idiot". not road rage or anything, just sort of mental face-palming about how many drivers are.

      that mindset is...not very Buddhist of me. and it was interesting to see how quickly my mind was able to shift gears like that. it seemed more prevalent on this trip because I didn't have conversation with passengers to provide other mental stimulation.

      once I got home, it was very, "oh yeah, I'm back to my normal everyday life and concerns". the little stuff like what do I want for dinner? do I want to cook, or go out? do I have ingredients to cook or would I need to go to the store? food on the retreat is prepared on-site, same time every day for breakfast/lunch/dinner, and one of the goals is taking away those logistic concerns so on retreat you can entirely focus your attention inward.

      I came back, in addition to all the normal stuff, to a note from my upstairs neighbor about how I've been using the garbage cans wrong (spoiler: I haven't) and an unexpected $150 medical bill because even though the doctor's office I went to recently is in-network for my insurance, the laboratory they use isn't, so they charged me.

      11 votes
      1. [2]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. spit-evil-olive-tips
          Link Parent
          yes. the school of Buddhism that I practice within is called "Vipassana" which is loosely translated into "insight". specifically, insight into the working of the mind. my "self" - the jumbled bag...

          Do you feel like the retreat is "part of" your regular life, or is the separation, the retreating from normal life an important part of it?

          yes.

          the school of Buddhism that I practice within is called "Vipassana" which is loosely translated into "insight". specifically, insight into the working of the mind.

          my "self" - the jumbled bag of neurons that has convinced itself that it's a consciousness - is present both while I'm on retreat and in my "normal" life outside retreat. so in that sense, it's absolutely part of my life.

          but in another sense, what I'm doing on retreat is creating a huge separation from my "normal" life - turning down the volume as much as possible on all the external sources of mental noise. only the internal sources of mental noise remain, and I spent 7 days listening to that static. this, in turn, gives me insight that persists in my "normal" life, and a better understanding of how my own mind works "normally".

          perhaps the retreat is "normal", even if I only do it 7 days a year, and it's my "regular" life that's the aberration?

          did you feel like you were "ready" to return to the trials and tribulations of normal life?

          I felt...more ready than usual? but I also don't think we're ever really "ready" to deal with everyday life.

          a core Buddhist teaching is that dukkha - dissatisfaction with life - is always with us. when we have a positive feeling, we cling to it and want it to never go away. when we have a negative feeling, we push it away and hope that it ends soon and never comes back.

          so I'd like to think that as I encounter trials and tribulations in my non-retreat life, I will recognize my aversion to them as an omnipresent part of life, and not necessarily as the result of a dumb decision I made, or such a terrible thing that it should dissuade me from dealing with that tribulation and living that part of my life.

          Do you feel like your retreat has a real positive effect on your life after you return?

          absolutely, 100%.

          but, not in a light-switch sort of way where there's a clearly defined "before" and "after" though. I've meditated daily for the past 5 years, and gone on 3 of these retreats over the past 2 years. it's much closer to a savings account earning compound interest. it's a slow change, and very noticeable over time, but there isn't one clear boundary you can draw where the change happened.

          3 votes
  5. [2]
    cfabbro
    (edited )
    Link
    Mentions/pings in topic text unfortunately still don't work, @spit-evil-olive-tips, so I'm glad I spotted this (cc: @kfwyre so they don't miss it either) since you have now answered all of the...

    Mentions/pings in topic text unfortunately still don't work, @spit-evil-olive-tips, so I'm glad I spotted this (cc: @kfwyre so they don't miss it either) since you have now answered all of the questions I asked in the screenless day topic. And I am also glad to hear you had a pleasant experience. :)

    p.s. Here's another one for you. Do you think you will ever do another 7 day retreat, or did you prefer the shorter ones like you have done previously?

    5 votes
    1. spit-evil-olive-tips
      Link Parent
      I'd love to do another 7-day one. Perhaps longer - they sometimes have week-long retreats back-to-back so people have the option for staying over and doing both. I think the minimum retreat length...

      I'd love to do another 7-day one. Perhaps longer - they sometimes have week-long retreats back-to-back so people have the option for staying over and doing both.

      I think the minimum retreat length I'd consider would be 5 days. It took the first several days of the retreat for my mind to truly quiet down, and so a shorter retreat would have limited benefit.

      I think a rough goal I'm going to set for myself is one 7-day retreat per year.

      4 votes
  6. [2]
    mrbig
    Link
    That's awesome. I envy you very much. I'm able to meditate for a 30 minutes stretch by myself and cannot go further mostly because my legs go numb. I like Zen meditation and there are no Zen...

    That's awesome. I envy you very much. I'm able to meditate for a 30 minutes stretch by myself and cannot go further mostly because my legs go numb. I like Zen meditation and there are no Zen places anywhere near my location. I think I would have trouble following a different school at that point. I also have a very loud tinnitus and still cannot meditate without white noise. Having a cellphone or noise device on at all times would probably disturb other participants.

    4 votes
    1. spit-evil-olive-tips
      Link Parent
      does Zen generally require sitting? I know "zazen" literally translates to "sitting meditation" but don't know how strictly that's adhered to. my general, at-a-distance impression of Zen has been...

      does Zen generally require sitting? I know "zazen" literally translates to "sitting meditation" but don't know how strictly that's adhered to.

      my general, at-a-distance impression of Zen has been that it tends to be rather rules-focused, perhaps because of the influence of Japanese culture. the traditions I practice in mostly have their home in Tibet, Burma, and Thailand, and I think the somewhat more relaxed culture carries over into their Buddhism.

      eg, at one point I was looking at meditation centers here in Seattle, and there was a Zen one that mentioned "you must have exactly 3 bowls of the following sizes in order to participate" in some ritual. that was a turn-off for me personally because I meditate in an attempt to decrease / manage anxiety and rules / formal structure like that would only increase it.

      I also have a very loud tinnitus and still cannot meditate without white noise. Having a cellphone or noise device on at all times would probably disturb other participants.

      I've never personally seen anyone do this on retreat, but I imagine that if you made arrangements in advance, some small, unobtrusive wireless earbuds playing white noise wouldn't be a problem. for politeness' sake you'd want to only pull out your phone discreetly / privately if you needed to adjust it. you could also perhaps get a dead simple MP3 player that's not a smartphone, and load it up with hours of your chosen white noise. that would remove the habit of mind that accompanies "I have a smartphone in my hand".

      3 votes
  7. [2]
    JXM
    Link
    How did you find out about this? What made you want to sign up and go? It sounds interesting but it also sounds like the total opposite of something I’d do so I’m curious.

    How did you find out about this? What made you want to sign up and go? It sounds interesting but it also sounds like the total opposite of something I’d do so I’m curious.

    3 votes
    1. spit-evil-olive-tips
      Link Parent
      For meditation in general, a therapist I had years ago introduced me to it. I've been meditating daily for the past ~5 years since then. For Cloud Mountain specifically, my sister went originally...

      For meditation in general, a therapist I had years ago introduced me to it. I've been meditating daily for the past ~5 years since then.

      For Cloud Mountain specifically, my sister went originally and told me about it. I don't know where she heard about it from. She started with a 7-day retreat right off the bat because that's how she rolls. I dipped my toe in the water with a 2-day retreat targeted at beginners, and then the 5-day retreat a few months later with the same teacher.

      3 votes
  8. [2]
    kfwyre
    Link
    Thanks for all of your other answers in this thread, evil-olive! It's been very interesting to hear your perspective and insights. What would you recommend for people who want to begin meditating...

    Thanks for all of your other answers in this thread, evil-olive! It's been very interesting to hear your perspective and insights.

    What would you recommend for people who want to begin meditating at home?

    Could you give a "narrative" of one of your meditations where you highlight what you did and experienced throughout that specific meditation?

    3 votes
    1. spit-evil-olive-tips
      Link Parent
      something that helped me establish my daily practice: there are 1440 minutes in a day. if you meditate for 14.4 minutes every day, that's just 1% of your life spent meditating, and 99% spent doing...
      • Exemplary

      What would you recommend for people who want to begin meditating at home?

      something that helped me establish my daily practice: there are 1440 minutes in a day. if you meditate for 14.4 minutes every day, that's just 1% of your life spent meditating, and 99% spent doing everything else.

      a hindrance that I encountered, that I have gathered is an almost universal occurrence among people new to meditating, is a self-criticism loop of "oh I got distracted" -> "oh that means I'm bad at meditating" -> "oh this means I should stop meditating" thoughts.

      after 5 years of daily meditation, I still get distracted. meditation is not a break from distraction, meditation is time spent noticing the distraction. the noticing is uncomfortable. that discomfort is OK.

      I still experience thoughts of "wow, I'm getting distracted a lot". I still experience thoughts of "maybe this means I'm bad at meditating". except, I know that's not true, because empirically speaking I'm "good" at meditating (but also I recognize that "good" or "bad" at meditation is a false dichotomy)

      I've recognized that there's a part of my brain that just does self-criticism 24/7. when I meditate, I turn down the volume of everything else, and so the self-critical part of my brain gets louder. since meditating is what I'm doing while that happens, the thing that the self-critical part of my brain criticizes is my meditation practice.

      the self-critical part of my brain is quite loud. that doesn't mean I need to listen to it.

      the trick is, you can experience an "I'm bad at meditating" thought...and keep meditating. it's OK to let that thought, generated by the self-critical part of your brain, just...sit there. it doesn't need to become part of you. it doesn't need to dictate your actions (such as stopping meditation because you experienced an "I'm bad at meditating" self-critical thought).

      Could you give a "narrative" of one of your meditations where you highlight what you did and experienced throughout that specific meditation?

      huh...I don't think I can.

      I think it's possible that I could be meditating, and then notice a particular thought, and then notice a "ooh, that's a thought that I could turn into an interesting Tildes post in response to @kfwyre's question" thought.

      but...ideally I would just keep on meditating. that's just a thought. there's no reason it should take over my brain for the rest of my meditation, and enter my long-term memory (long enough, at least, for me to go over to my computer and post about it on Tildes)

      in general, I don't have any specific memory of any daily meditation, or any particular highlight or realization from one. it's just...10-15 minutes a day, of listening to static on the radio. sometimes you hear patterns in the static, sometimes you don't.

      or, it's a bit like brushing your teeth. is there a tooth-brushing that stands out for you? is there a night of tooth-brushing that was particularly life-changing? no, of course not.

      but, would you be a different person if you never brushed your teeth? yes, absolutely.

      2 votes