51 votes

New York starts enforcing $15 broadband law that ISPs tried to kill

33 comments

  1. [25]
    DefinitelyNotAFae
    Link
    This is basically designed to help low income households especially after losing the federal FCC benefit last year. Appreciate that New York made a point to put in the provision about reviewing to...

    This is basically designed to help low income households especially after losing the federal FCC benefit last year. Appreciate that New York made a point to put in the provision about reviewing to see if speeds need updated

    30 votes
    1. [2]
      tanglisha
      Link Parent
      Are they pulling that everywhere? Apparently anything faster than a dialup modem is "high speed".

      Are they pulling that everywhere? Apparently anything faster than a dialup modem is "high speed".

      2 votes
      1. DefinitelyNotAFae
        Link Parent
        The federal benefit? I think it's no longer funded by Congress so yeah it's pulled. There are some places where DSL is the fastest option still, I guess, so I understand a nationwide policy having...

        The federal benefit? I think it's no longer funded by Congress so yeah it's pulled.

        There are some places where DSL is the fastest option still, I guess, so I understand a nationwide policy having to be very broad for that purpose.

        3 votes
    2. [22]
      updawg
      Link Parent
      🤨 That's not how Illinoisans speak... Even more off-topic, isn't it odd that we (typically) refer to nationalities using adjectives, by saying "British people," "French people," "Japanese people,"...

      need updated

      🤨
      That's not how Illinoisans speak...

      Even more off-topic, isn't it odd that we (typically) refer to nationalities using adjectives, by saying "British people," "French people," "Japanese people," yet people from smaller localities are exclusively referred to using noun demonyms ("Illinoisans," "New Yorkers," "San Diego...ites...Diego-ins...San Diego-uns...San Diegans!")

      Interestingly, there is a trend in the exceptions: Indians, Americans, Norwegians, Iraqis, Azerbaijanis, Israelis...and Swedes...

      You'll also note that localities larger than countries typically use nouns, but you'll also also note that they actually all follow the exception for countries: Africans, Asians, Europeans, Americans, Micronesians.

      At this point, you may realize that given the trends established by the exceptions, I'm really just pointing out that the only suffixes that don't usually get turned into nouns by native English speakers are "-ish" and "-ese" (and "-ench...or is the suffix there just "-h"?). Yet, increasingly, I see people using the non-English-speaking countries' adjectives as nouns, something which I attribute to the Internet making it so that people with bad English (e.g., the French) have a bigger platform in the anglosphere.

      I also just employed one of the other tricks we like to use to get around these rules: "the French." Just stick "the" before an adjectival demonym and it becomes okay to use in place of a noun. Interestingly, this works, but is not as common when referring to e.g., the Chinese.

      And don't even get me started on (the) Liechtensteiners...

      What were we talking about?

      9 votes
      1. [4]
        Gephorian
        Link Parent
        I don't know where it came from, but using need updated or needs fixed is spreading here. Illinois born and raised, I've heard it more in the past 5 years than the previous 30. But then, maybe...

        I don't know where it came from, but using need updated or needs fixed is spreading here. Illinois born and raised, I've heard it more in the past 5 years than the previous 30. But then, maybe it's always been here and I've only just realized that particular quirk of language exists.

        5 votes
        1. [2]
          xk3
          Link Parent
          I would say "needs updating" but the word updating in this context irks me a bit... It's not the speed that is being upgraded rather it is the infrastructure which can support the higher speed....

          I would say "needs updating" but the word updating in this context irks me a bit... It's not the speed that is being upgraded rather it is the infrastructure which can support the higher speed.

          Actually, I don't think the word updating can apply to speed. You can measure the speed of something and you can update your measurement but you can't really update speed--only increase or decrease it. Because speed is something that exists within the context of time it is always updating...

          source: Central Illinois

          3 votes
          1. DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            To be specific the speed listed in the law is what I was saying would need updated

            To be specific the speed listed in the law is what I was saying would need updated

            1 vote
        2. Baeocystin
          Link Parent
          I've noticed it spreading in usage myself over the past few decades. It kind of grates on my ear personally, but it is what it is.

          I've noticed it spreading in usage myself over the past few decades. It kind of grates on my ear personally, but it is what it is.

      2. [6]
        DefinitelyNotAFae
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I have no idea how Illinoisans speak - especially given I'm not from Chicago which is the standard most people use, and double especially since I literally said "sod the rest" here earlier today....

        I have no idea how Illinoisans speak - especially given I'm not from Chicago which is the standard most people use, and double especially since I literally said "sod the rest" here earlier today.

        I blame the British. Or Brits.
        Or the Moroccan friend with the Scottish accent that said "knackering" to me before that. I tend to pick up her accent even in my internal monologue.

        But no one's ever said anything about "need(s) updated" before, what was I supposed to say

        5 votes
        1. [3]
          sparksbet
          Link Parent
          I grew up saying this (it's often called the "needs washed" construction), and it's typical of Indiana, Ohio, and Western PA. But it's present in other parts of the lower Midwest as well,...

          I grew up saying this (it's often called the "needs washed" construction), and it's typical of Indiana, Ohio, and Western PA. But it's present in other parts of the lower Midwest as well, including Illinois, just less consistently. Here's an article from the Yale Grammatical Diversity Project about it. According to them it likely originates from Scotland and Northern Ireland. I grew up not even knowing it was non-standard myself until I did my linguistics undergrad.

          Anyway I'm chalking this one up to you being my twin.

          9 votes
          1. DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            I mean, frankly I watched PBS Britcom airings since childhood and panel shows today so I also suspect I just pick linguist bits and bobs up from all that. But clearly it's our twinship coming...

            I mean, frankly I watched PBS Britcom airings since childhood and panel shows today so I also suspect I just pick linguist bits and bobs up from all that.

            But clearly it's our twinship coming through strong in this one 💜

            2 votes
          2. [2]
            Comment deleted by author
            Link Parent
            1. sparksbet
              Link Parent
              When I went to England in the past the folks I spoke with there definitely didn't recognize it, but they weren't from very far north even so I suppose that makes sense. Worth noting, though, that...

              When I went to England in the past the folks I spoke with there definitely didn't recognize it, but they weren't from very far north even so I suppose that makes sense.

              Worth noting, though, that this particular construction needs the past tense. "Needs washed" rather than "needs washing" (the latter of which is more widespread in the US than the former afaik).

              1 vote
        2. [2]
          Pistos
          Link Parent
          TIL: There are people that do this that don't even realize there are other ways of saying it. I (born and raised Canadian) have always and exclusively said "needs to be [verb]ed", and never "needs...

          what was I supposed to say

          TIL: There are people that do this that don't even realize there are other ways of saying it.

          I (born and raised Canadian) have always and exclusively said "needs to be [verb]ed", and never "needs [verb]ed". It's only in the last ... 10, 15-ish years that I've seen "needs [verb]ed", and the incidence rate has really rocketed in that time. I've heard/read it from both Americans, and people from the British Isles. I don't know where or why it spawned, but always sounded odd to me. Borderline outright incorrect.

          2 votes
          1. DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            Oh, I can say "Needs to be updated" and do it all the time; I just also say "it needs updated" or even "That needs updating," too. I mentioned I listen to/watch a broad spectrum of English...

            Oh, I can say "Needs to be updated" and do it all the time; I just also say "it needs updated" or even "That needs updating," too.

            I mentioned I listen to/watch a broad spectrum of English language shows and have for a long time, but I'm also on Tiktok (for now) and work with college students, so I do notice I pick up slang (like crash out) more quickly than my siblings for example. So, if it's a shift among young folks or an international phrase, I'm probably slightly more likely to use it than the average Midwesterner

            Plus, there's something about empathetic people mimicking speech patterns that I cannot confirm held up scientifically, but anecdotally, I mimic a lot and I don't let Grammarly edit my sentences often, leaving everyone with my confused mess full of parentheticals and whichever dashes I feel like using in the moment.

            2 votes
      3. PelagiusSeptim
        Link Parent
        That's definitely how we speak in Central IL

        That's definitely how we speak in Central IL

        2 votes
      4. [10]
        Hollow
        Link Parent
        So I can try to answer this, the idea is to emphasise the "person" part as a guard against dehumanisation. Eg. It's hard to imagine Paul Revere on horseback yelling "British people are coming!"...

        Even more off-topic, isn't it odd that we (typically) refer to nationalities using adjectives, by saying "British people," "French people," "Japanese people," yet people from smaller localities are exclusively referred to using noun demonyms ("Illinoisans," "New Yorkers," "San Diego...ites...Diego-ins...San Diego-uns...San Diegans!")

        So I can try to answer this, the idea is to emphasise the "person" part as a guard against dehumanisation. Eg. It's hard to imagine Paul Revere on horseback yelling "British people are coming!" and it carrying the same connotation as simply "The British" which has a stronger tie to national powers.

        1. [9]
          updawg
          Link Parent
          I'm certain that's not the case with this. Perhaps for "people with special needs," etc., but this almost certainly predates that idea.

          I'm certain that's not the case with this. Perhaps for "people with special needs," etc., but this almost certainly predates that idea.

          2 votes
          1. [8]
            sparksbet
            Link Parent
            The existence of the construction definitely predates those notions, but I think favoring "British people" over "the British" is a modern trend that does come from the desires they cite. I know...

            The existence of the construction definitely predates those notions, but I think favoring "British people" over "the British" is a modern trend that does come from the desires they cite. I know Esperanto has undergone a similar semantic shift over time as well, for instance.

            Certainly it's why you don't hear "the Chinese" much anymore -- I promise that construction comes up a lot for more "exotic" people groups in older work a lot. In my Mandarin courses in undergrad, sometimes the English translation or description would even say "a Chinese" to refer an individual Chinese person, which really felt really off to me, but I chalk that one up to non-native English speakers not knowing the nuance (especially since Mandarin doesn't usually mark any difference between singular and plural).

            2 votes
            1. [3]
              DefinitelyNotAFae
              Link Parent
              oh... "the Chinese" definitely reads differently than "the British" I think I do still see the former used when discussing the country as a whole "The Chinese see collective vs individual...

              oh... "the Chinese" definitely reads differently than "the British"
              I think I do still see the former used when discussing the country as a whole

              "The Chinese see collective vs individual responsibility differently and this is reflected in their laws" for example. But I wouldn't say "The Chinese have been really welcoming on RedNote" I don't think. Now i'm going to over think that though.

              1. [2]
                sparksbet
                Link Parent
                Ultimately I think it's a very context-dependent thing that's pretty subtle in a lot of contexts.

                Ultimately I think it's a very context-dependent thing that's pretty subtle in a lot of contexts.

                2 votes
                1. DefinitelyNotAFae
                  Link Parent
                  Oh for sure. I'm just prone to overthinking

                  Oh for sure. I'm just prone to overthinking

                  1 vote
            2. [4]
              updawg
              Link Parent
              Yes, I tried to note this in my original comment, and I was going to include a snide remark about Chinese students cheating on their TOEFLs but decided against it, especially because I first...

              In my Mandarin courses in undergrad, sometimes the English translation or description would even say "a Chinese" to refer an individual Chinese person, which really felt really off to me, but I chalk that one up to non-native English speakers not knowing the nuance (especially since Mandarin doesn't usually mark any difference between singular and plural).

              Yes, I tried to note this in my original comment, and I was going to include a snide remark about Chinese students cheating on their TOEFLs but decided against it, especially because I first learned that construction from a Chinese roommate who had received high praise for his English in China...I guess they essentially just teach Chinese English with their own weird grammar and rhythms that they are graded on in school.

              That construction is definitely used by speakers of a bunch of different languages, though—people say things like "I am a French," etc.

              1. sparksbet
                Link Parent
                I don't think it's even a strictly ungrammatical construction in English, at least not always -- the textbooks that used it were published by my US university and our professor (a white guy) was...

                I don't think it's even a strictly ungrammatical construction in English, at least not always -- the textbooks that used it were published by my US university and our professor (a white guy) was one of the names on the cover! It just reminds me way too much of my grandmother saying "a black". It's understandable to me that a lot of non-natives wouldn't pick up on the nuances.

                4 votes
              2. [2]
                Hollow
                Link Parent
                They absolutely do. For example they will use the word "delicious" instead of 'tastes good' because even though it's much stronger than they mean it's a one word adjective and thus easier to learn.

                I guess they essentially just teach Chinese English with their own weird grammar and rhythms that they are graded on in school.

                They absolutely do. For example they will use the word "delicious" instead of 'tastes good' because even though it's much stronger than they mean it's a one word adjective and thus easier to learn.

                2 votes
                1. updawg
                  Link Parent
                  If I recall my conversations with my roommate correctly, I believe the word they teach in Chinese schools is "delisherss." It's funny that you chose that example because 15 years later I can still...

                  If I recall my conversations with my roommate correctly, I believe the word they teach in Chinese schools is "delisherss."

                  It's funny that you chose that example because 15 years later I can still remember him using that word.

                  He would definitely put the stress at odd points in his sentences, which he explained by saying that's how he was forced to do it in school because they said it was the proper way to speak. It really just made it harder to understand them.

                  3 votes
  2. [7]
    fandegw
    Link
    Why in networking language Mbps is so entrenched ?? The only unit anyone is going to see when using any piece of software is Mo/s, so why keep this annoying way to speak about it ? Okay maybe for...

    Why in networking language Mbps is so entrenched ??

    The only unit anyone is going to see when using any piece of software is Mo/s, so why keep this annoying way to speak about it ?

    Okay maybe for networking communities working on this specific subject, but for any kind of document presented to the whole public, why not switch or at least present both ?

    1 vote
    1. [2]
      Carrow
      Link Parent
      Video quality is often reported in terms of Mbps, though that could be impacted by networking, I.e. simplifying "can this speed stream this vid". Values for 1080p tend to range in 1-10Mbps, bit...

      Video quality is often reported in terms of Mbps, though that could be impacted by networking, I.e. simplifying "can this speed stream this vid". Values for 1080p tend to range in 1-10Mbps, bit under half for 720p, quadruple for 4k.

      Basically marketing though. Consumers will think 100 Mbps is faster than 12.5 MB/s, if your competitor advertises in Mbps, you'll look like a chump if you switch. And now you can advertise gigabit, which just translates to "fast" for many.

      3 votes
      1. fandegw
        Link Parent
        Yeah, didn't think about that. And it totally makes sense marketing wise, and you will never add the MB/s as a second figure because it would confuses people. I don't remember seeing the link...

        Basically marketing though. Consumers will think 100 Mbps is faster than 12.5 MB/s, if your competitor advertises in Mbps, you'll look like a chump if you switch. And now you can advertise gigabit, which just translates to "fast" for many.

        Yeah, didn't think about that. And it totally makes sense marketing wise, and you will never add the MB/s as a second figure because it would confuses people.

        I don't remember seeing the link between each range of speed and resolution capability for streaming video. But it may also be because it has been a long time since I've seen marketing for ISPs.

        2 votes
    2. [4]
      krellor
      Link Parent
      Did you mean Mb/s? I don't know an Mo/s, and I ran network engineering teams for years. Honestly, oif I was going to tweak how things are presented to the public, it would be to standardize on...

      The only unit anyone is going to see when using any piece of software is Mo/s, so why keep this annoying way to speak about it ?

      Did you mean Mb/s? I don't know an Mo/s, and I ran network engineering teams for years.

      Honestly, oif I was going to tweak how things are presented to the public, it would be to standardize on MB/s not Mb/s. Giving customers the rate in byte's puts it in the same scheme as they are used to with disk space. Expecting the public to even know to adjust by a factor of 8 is crazy.

      2 votes
      1. [3]
        fandegw
        Link Parent
        Ah yes sorry, apparently it is only in France, Quebec and Romania where it is used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octet_(computing): Maybe it is a bias of habits, but I always prefer this...

        Ah yes sorry, apparently it is only in France, Quebec and Romania where it is used
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octet_(computing):

        In France, French Canada and Romania, octet is used in common language instead of byte when the eight-bit sense is required; for example, a megabyte (MB) is termed a megaoctet (Mo).

        Maybe it is a bias of habits, but I always prefer this distinction in french, where we don't need the capitalization to know of which unit we are speaking about.
        And still in our french press and ISP talking points, everyone speak about Mb/s, where everyone see Mo/s (MB/s) in steam.

        Expecting the public to even know to adjust by a factor of 8 is crazy.

        Cannot agree more

        4 votes
        1. Weldawadyathink
          Link Parent
          I didn’t realize the distinction in France until I read this, but I am all for it. The biggest problem with the capital distinction is that many people and programs don’t use it correctly. I might...

          I didn’t realize the distinction in France until I read this, but I am all for it. The biggest problem with the capital distinction is that many people and programs don’t use it correctly. I might start using Mo and Go even in English.

          3 votes
        2. krellor
          Link Parent
          Hey, I learned something new! Back when I was a system programmer on z/OS mainframes we used octet and byte because of different platform implementations, but I've not seem octet used outside of...

          Hey, I learned something new! Back when I was a system programmer on z/OS mainframes we used octet and byte because of different platform implementations, but I've not seem octet used outside of that.

          Thanks for sharing!

          1 vote
  3. Pistos
    Link
    I wonder if there will be SLAs or other regulation or enforcement about minimum quality. Will providers be able to advertise one speed, but actually provide only a lesser speed, and claim things...

    I wonder if there will be SLAs or other regulation or enforcement about minimum quality. Will providers be able to advertise one speed, but actually provide only a lesser speed, and claim things like "technical problems" or "momentary issues"? Will consumers have any recourse if providers try to skirt the spirit of the law in ways such as those?

    1 vote