Whisper networks like "Tea" arise in response to a massive societal problem: abusive, violent, dangerous and coercive men all too often face few or no consequences for their actions. Whether it be...
Exemplary
Whisper networks like "Tea" arise in response to a massive societal problem: abusive, violent, dangerous and coercive men all too often face few or no consequences for their actions. Whether it be something as severe as using their power as an executive to pursue and pressure female employees, or something as "minor" as forcibly kissing someone on a date, men are all too often protected by each other, or by the legal system, or simply a quagmire of societal indifference. It makes sense, then, that women look for ways to protect themselves, to warn other women (and be warned) about dangerous men they've met. So they create these communities, share those experiences, to do just that.
But whisper networks, too, are broken. How could they not be? They're a last resort in a society that normalizes violence against women, a mere facsimile of justice. People take issue with the elements of these groups that feel like doxxing, or accusing men without evidence. Rightly so, might I add! But realize that this level of specificity is necessary to achieve the network's goals. Any evidence threshold, and a woman who was sexually assaulted by a date in his home wouldn't be able to share her experience. Any redaction of identifiers, and other women wouldn't be able to avoid him in the future.
But perhaps you'll notice the name of this particular whisper network. "Tea." Fundamentally, this app isn't billing itself as a sober-minded crowdsourced safety tool. It's billing itself as a platform for gossip, where stories of assault might coexist with stories of The Ick, a guy who maybe was awkward and weird on a first date. I haven't used the app or experienced its culture. But to me, it doesn't present itself as a tool for protecting women. It presents itself as a shade room.
Here's the elephant in the shade room. Whisper networks like Tea, in addition to the above issues, almost never aim to protect all women. As I understand it, the reason Tea collected and stored all these IDs was to determine that its users were really women. But what about me, a trans woman who (often) passes, who is arguably more at risk from dangerous men, but who has an "M" on my driver's license? It's not just Tea, either. I've heard stories from black women who have come to their (white) female coworkers to warn them about their boss after a creepy incident only to be told "oh, yeah, we know, didn't anyone tell you?" You might have noticed that this comment feels a bit reductionist, painting (conventional, 'normal') women exclusively as victims, and men as aggressors. This framework often underpins whisper networks, but to be clear, it is false. Though men are more often dangerous, more often perpetrators of sexual assault, intimate partner violence, and workplace harassment (actually, pretty much every crime) women can also be abusers, of men or other women.
So of course, "Tea" and apps and services and communities like it are not a solution to violence against women (or bad dating experiences). But I sympathize with the people who create and use them, because often, these communities can feel like the only thing that's even a partial solution, especially now, when, for example, my country's leader is an out-and-proud misogynistic rapist. And of course, any way of fighting back against this misogyny, perfect or not, will be seen by the millions and millions of people who agree with him as evil, as a deserving target of massive privacy beaches, doxxing and harassment. Seems like Tea has made it easy for them.
Ugh I wrote a whole thing and it got deleted by the whims of the app. I really appreciate your perspective and even when whisper networks are in, for example queer and gender affirming spaces, it...
Ugh I wrote a whole thing and it got deleted by the whims of the app. I really appreciate your perspective and even when whisper networks are in, for example queer and gender affirming spaces, it doesn't mean they're racially equitable. Privilege works to defend itself even in spaces where you'd think the people would "get" it.
(I am reminded of the man vs bear side conversation among Black women about "White woman or white man" where many white women reacted as defensively to the realization that Black women chose then white man as many men reacted to the choice of "bear"
I didn't realize until this post that Tea was collecting IDs and doing "real woman" verification. I don't know whether they were excluding trans women but it sounds like they'd be excluding non-binary folks by default.
Whisper networks are the cobbled together solution to try to create safety, especially in the era of "Me too was overblown" (we learned the wrong lesson/privilege protects itself) but they're never going to solve it. But also I see the responses saying all these folks should have gone to the police, and it suggests to me people have no idea what actually happens when the police get involved, if they bother, and how ineffective things like Orders of Protection are, even when actually enforced.
It's frustrating that even now people don't see the problem even as so many people are trying to cobble together solutions and make safety plans.
I know this wasn’t your main point, but now that you say it I do think the “cobbled together” part is very relevant. For all the inherent risks and flaws, they were at least grassroots groups with...
I know this wasn’t your main point, but now that you say it I do think the “cobbled together” part is very relevant. For all the inherent risks and flaws, they were at least grassroots groups with the original goal of safety.
Take the same concept, package and brand and monetise it, add some KPIs, scale it, and look what happened…
Yeah I agree. I don't know the motivations of the creator of the app, he claims it was after his mom had online dating issues but he's also identified as a "tech capitalist" which I'm not sure has...
Yeah I agree. I don't know the motivations of the creator of the app, he claims it was after his mom had online dating issues but he's also identified as a "tech capitalist" which I'm not sure has a defined meaning but suggests strongly wanting to make money. He also allegedly has basically no experience which would track with the breaches.
Also the fact that people were discussing abortions was a whole other wrinkle in potential consequences here. Everything from criminal charges to bounty lawsuits to social consequences
There's a class action suit now for what good it may do
AFAIK they collected either photos of ID or face photos, and they did not exclude trans women. Non-binary prople, yeah, probably.
I didn't realize until this post that Tea was collecting IDs and doing "real woman" verification. I don't know whether they were excluding trans women but it sounds like they'd be excluding non-binary folks by default.
AFAIK they collected either photos of ID or face photos, and they did not exclude trans women. Non-binary prople, yeah, probably.
Does that mean they had a team of people whose job it was to judge if someone was actually trans? Seems like a nightmare of bias. The whole concept is rotten to its core.
Does that mean they had a team of people whose job it was to judge if someone was actually trans? Seems like a nightmare of bias. The whole concept is rotten to its core.
As of right now, it's fully an unknown process. I'm not optimistic about it but I don't think I can assume the worst case with more info. There's more than enough problems with the app as it stands
As of right now, it's fully an unknown process. I'm not optimistic about it but I don't think I can assume the worst case with more info. There's more than enough problems with the app as it stands
The linked article says the process is unclear so I won't assume either way. Trans folks often have IDs that don't match their gender like @Evie described. I haven't dug much further on that part
The linked article says the process is unclear so I won't assume either way. Trans folks often have IDs that don't match their gender like @Evie described. I haven't dug much further on that part
I have some personal experience with this type of thing, so I think I can chime in a bit here. When I was single a few years back, I was doing a fair bit of dating. I was seeing a woman, and...
Exemplary
I have some personal experience with this type of thing, so I think I can chime in a bit here.
When I was single a few years back, I was doing a fair bit of dating. I was seeing a woman, and things were off right from the beginning. She was extremely jealous, combative, mean spirited, hated my hobbies and wanted me to change into her ideal man. I struggled with her for over a month, way longer than I should have, and eventually I told her we needed to break up.
In that month, I confided in a lot of female friends how things were going; emotional, verbal and physical abuse, having to constantly cater to her insecurities, trying to bend over backwards to make sure she stayed happy. They all encouraged me to end it after I told them about how it was going and I finally did.
Then, about a week later, one of them noticed a post with my face on it on one of those "are we dating the same guy" Facebook groups. It was this girl, asking "if anyone had any tea on papasquat". She was accusing me of cheating on her, and people were commenting saying that I looked like an abuser, that I shouldn't be trusted, and all of these other horrible things.
I never cheated on her, I never even came close to cheating on her, and honestly the thought of cheating on her was the furthest thing from my mind during that month. I was honestly just trying to keep myself sane and stop my life from falling apart because of this awful relationship.
I told my sister about it and she was pissed. She messaged the admins of the group to try to get the post removed, contacted Facebook, but no dice. As far as I know, that post of me is still up on that page.
Thankfully, even though I did more dating after that, no one had ever mentioned seeing that post, but then again, how would I know?
How many people decided not to take their chance on going out with me, or being my friend, or offering me a job because of some random accusation from a stranger in the internet? Who knows.
The whole thing felt like a massive violation and has always left a really bad taste in my mouth for these types of public witch hunt forums.
I'm not surprised that this one has security problems. The entire premise is just based on hearsay and rumor.
It's also ironic to me that they're offering their users "free identity protection services" as compensation for leaking their data, since the entire purpose of the site seems to be destroying other people's online identities.
Dude the same exact thing happened to me! Except it was actually my ex who I'd cut all contact with after she started threatening suicide if we didn't get back together. I only found out through a...
Then, about a week later, one of them noticed a post with my face on it on one of those "are we dating the same guy" Facebook groups. It was this girl, asking "if anyone had any tea on papasquat". She was accusing me of cheating on her, and people were commenting saying that I looked like an abuser, that I shouldn't be trusted, and all of these other horrible things.
Dude the same exact thing happened to me! Except it was actually my ex who I'd cut all contact with after she started threatening suicide if we didn't get back together.
I only found out through a girl on a dating app where we had gotten along super well who told me why she didn't want to see me again. She said she liked me so I deserved to know why she needed to stop talking to me. She even said that the post sounded far fetched but she can't take chances. She blocked me before I could respond.
The thing is, the post was like several months old, and in that time I'd had dates and gotten ghosted several times from what I thought was completely out of the blue.
The post had fake text messages of me threatening to murder her cat WITH THE IFAKETEXTMESSAGE.COM WATERMARK STILL VISIBLE! Even had a picture of her cat at the vet from when she got attacked by a dog before we even met.
So many comments saying I probably murdered cats when I was a kid and was a serial killer, and of course no mention of my cat that I absolutely adore or the fact I used to foster kittens to keep them out of kill shelters and my cat's a foster fail. The contrast with reality would be comical if it didn't tangibly impact my life.
The comments were the same, a lot of people tearing everything about me apart.
The most frustrating thing about the comments is everyone so willing to believe the post and say hateful things about me, that not a single person saw the ifaketextmessage.com watermark on the text messages.
I did get a lawyer friend involved in a very threatening sounding cease and desist letter and attaching screenshots showing the post with watermarks and REAL text messages showing her abuse and had it certified delivered to both her and her parents who she was still living with.
Post was deleted shortly after. Probably could have sued for slander or libel or whatever but frankly I just wanted it down at the time.
But like that entire experience cut deep. It tainted my views on dating for a while always wondering if there was a post out there and out of the blue someone would see it and ghost me fearing for their safety.
Honestly I've been single and only dating off and on ever since.
Dating in the age of the internet is a legitimate nightmare. Sorry you went through that, I wish people could use common sense and read things like watermarks (but I understand that is asking far,...
Dating in the age of the internet is a legitimate nightmare. Sorry you went through that, I wish people could use common sense and read things like watermarks (but I understand that is asking far, far too much of people).
Given the behavior that’s proven common in other corners of the internet, it wouldn’t surprise me if some number saw the watermark and realized that the screenshots were faked but consciously...
Given the behavior that’s proven common in other corners of the internet, it wouldn’t surprise me if some number saw the watermark and realized that the screenshots were faked but consciously ignored it and just went along with it anyway.
There are some (men and women alike) who live for drama and getting whipped up about others’ wrongdoing and aren’t above setting reality aside when needed to make the magic happen. I’ve encountered such individuals bold enough to engage in this behavior in real life, and it’s even more common online where the internet can act as protective insulation.
Sounds like an absolute nightmare situation and was exactly what I imagined when I first heard about this whole snafu. So sorry you went through something like that, it would give me trust issues...
Sounds like an absolute nightmare situation and was exactly what I imagined when I first heard about this whole snafu. So sorry you went through something like that, it would give me trust issues for anyone I met and talked to in the future.
Not gonna get into the whole "Are We Dating The Same Guy" debate. But what I will say is that Tea is a textbook example of how mandatory ID verification can backfire, and why the UK's Online...
Exemplary
Not gonna get into the whole "Are We Dating The Same Guy" debate. But what I will say is that Tea is a textbook example of how mandatory ID verification can backfire, and why the UK's Online Safety Act needs to be repealed.
If this is what happens to users of a "dating safety" platform that claims to delete this data once users are verified, imagine how porn sites and their partner companies are going to treat your data.
The first data breach revealed 72,000 images, including 13,000 photo IDs that had been submitted for account verification (source). Now, 1.1 million DMs from the platform have leaked (source -...
The first data breach revealed 72,000 images, including 13,000 photo IDs that had been submitted for account verification (source). Now, 1.1 million DMs from the platform have leaked (source - archive link).
Tea is a dating safety app, but these data breaches have left Tea's users vulnerable. As well, Tea encourages its users to upload pictures of other people without requiring their knowledge or consent.
From the article:
I certainly acknowledge that warning women of abusers, violent men, and cheaters is a good, safe thing to do and that anonymously rating people and not having to provide any proof of the accusations you're publicly making against them is potentially a very bad thing.
And inarguably, the fact that thousands of women's photos and private messages were stored in such an insecure way by Tea that they have been exposed in multiple data breaches is definitely a very bad thing. No one is winning here.
What do you think of the data breaches, and of Tea?
I think this app was ripe for abuse, even before the data breach. I get why it’s appealing for people on the surface, but the implications of an app like this are troubling. Particularly when the...
I think this app was ripe for abuse, even before the data breach. I get why it’s appealing for people on the surface, but the implications of an app like this are troubling. Particularly when the targets have no recourse to address libelous statements, no ability to control the use of their likeness, etc.
This seems like it would certainly run afoul of EU laws, but even if legal in the US, I think it’s unethical in its implementation.
I literally heard about Tea yesterday as someone made a video doing an excellent job of providing a case for it being needed (He was accusing someone on there of being his ex-wife, but then also...
I literally heard about Tea yesterday as someone made a video doing an excellent job of providing a case for it being needed (He was accusing someone on there of being his ex-wife, but then also saying he'd found that user's GPS, address, etc and it matched what town his ex of SEVENTEEN years had lived in and claimed he'd take her back to custody court - for a 17 year old? I guess? I don't think that proved what he thought it did. )He gave off some very concerning vibes.
I don't know enough about the app to actually have an opinion other than clearly their data security is poor. I'd say that whisper networks have always existed among women for safety, and there are any number of "are we dating the same guy" Facebook groups out there. I'm not sure this is functionally different than that from what it sounds like. I've strongly disliked being in spaces with people who had multiple accusations of abuse against them, but no one wanted to address the missing stair so we all just warned each other to watch out. This is the apparently what was happening with Neil Gaiman for a long time - a more public reputation for hitting on young fans at cons, and a much more quiet whisper network of "do not leave her alone with him"
I don't know that that means it's "good" by any means, but I'm not sure it's worse than everything else. And the whisper networks save lives. They may also destroy lives. I'm not sure. Open to hearing others' thoughts since the app itself is much more unknown.
This has extremely neatly summed up what’s been spinning through my mind since hearing about this app a week or so ago. The core premise is a sad necessity because some men are dangerous. The...
And the whisper networks save lives. They may also destroy lives.
This has extremely neatly summed up what’s been spinning through my mind since hearing about this app a week or so ago.
The core premise is a sad necessity because some men are dangerous. The concept is incredibly open to abuse because being a shitty person knows no gender, and the app is necessarily one sided. The choice to give it a name that evokes gossip more than safety is… dubious, but not a smoking gun in terms of the developer’s intent.
It’s raised an interesting conversation with no straightforward solutions, at the very least! It’s just a shame that the developer who got the traction to do so was wildly incompetent (a huge amount of data was just there, publicly, on the internet - no password, no security, nothing), and was an outright liar to boot (the app claimed that ID documents weren’t stored in the first place). It means that there was never even a theoretical hope for them to engage with and try to address the risks of abuse inherent to an app like this, if that’s possible at all, because they were clearly just in it to pump the user numbers and try to make some profit at bare minimum cost.
The developers seem almost criminally negligent. I hope all the women affected by these data breaches put together a class action lawsuit and sue the pants off these clowns.
The developers seem almost criminally negligent. I hope all the women affected by these data breaches put together a class action lawsuit and sue the pants off these clowns.
My first thought reading all of this sort of stuff is "dear God I'm glad I'm decades out of the dating scene" because it seems grim from the outside. Regarding the controversy of the app, I get...
My first thought reading all of this sort of stuff is "dear God I'm glad I'm decades out of the dating scene" because it seems grim from the outside.
Regarding the controversy of the app, I get the value for women, and the potential to defame men. Is that fair? No. But it's not fair that women need something like this, so it all sort of sucks in general. Sometimes life and society is about balancing harms. Additionally, if you can see a users comment history (I don't know if you can or not) then if they do nothing but hate on men you can probably disregard their input. If it is completely anonymized so you can't see those patterns, then it would be harder to ignore noise, especially in low population areas where there aren't enough votes/comments to reflect reality.
What was that dating site years ago that encouraged people to have an affair and got hacked and leaked? I would think people would learn their lesson about not hardening services they know are controversial.
But really, I'll just reiterate I'm so glad not to be in the dating scene.
I'm happy to see an article on this that does not simply describe Tea as a women's safety app without further elaboration. Describing it so is like describing 4chan as a forum for people to...
I'm happy to see an article on this that does not simply describe Tea as a women's safety app without further elaboration. Describing it so is like describing 4chan as a forum for people to discuss their hobbies - it's the stated purpose, it's even true to an extent, but if someone is trying to tell me that's the whole truth I'm going to think they either don't know much about it or are being disingenuous.
Two small thoughts. First: this seems like it was designed to be a gossip app from the get go. Even the marketing on their website basically says this is not just about safety. If men made a...
Two small thoughts.
First: this seems like it was designed to be a gossip app from the get go. Even the marketing on their website basically says this is not just about safety. If men made a gossip app about their ex partners out there in the open and marketed it as something great, it would be an immediate scandal. I acknowledge the difference in that this app did have an additional feature in the safety aspect, but other than that I do not think that women are generally somehow more moral and expecting them to not abuse it seems straight up nonsensical. There are enough dumb, nasty, immoral people of both sexes.
Second: is US or generally western society really this fucked, or am I just living within several large lucky bubbles? I don't think I know a single woman who said she would choose a bear in that dilemma that was trending for a while (or, to be fair, I don't think I know any that even cared about that without somebody else bringing it up). I don't know a single woman who ever complained about repeatedly meeting abusers and felt a need to have a shared abuser registry. I am a man, but a slight majority of my close friends are women, and as confrontational as I sometimes am online, I tend to be relatively nonjudgemental irl and have talked about these topics with women aged approximately 22 - 60 with quite different backgrounds.
The only one who I believe may have welcomed something like Tea without the obvious gossip aspects is a woman who was heavily abused by a family member as either a kid or teenager or both - I don't know the details, but I do know it was considerably worse than what you generally read about in threads like this. Understandable. Other than that, the fear of men that I see on the american internet doesn't really exist around me. Is it the culture or am I just really lucky with the groups that I'm implicitly a member of? It feels like it at the least has to be both.
I don't know a woman that doesn't have a story about a scary or abusive encounter with a guy. I've literally tracked my friends' location on dates or been the person who they have shared their...
I don't know a woman that doesn't have a story about a scary or abusive encounter with a guy. I've literally tracked my friends' location on dates or been the person who they have shared their date's info with in case they get kidnapped or murdered. Multiple LARP and gaming groups have had the "watch out for this guy" message passed along to me or where I've stood "guard" so someone didn't end up alone. Now these aren't all dating situations and this app wouldn't have solved all of it even if it were perfect, but getting to "vet" someone for safety is incredibly appealing for those reasons.
I cannot speak to the women you know, but many don't discuss this with men, because they don't want to have to defend it, explain it, or prove that the harassment happens. I've seen multiple guys not believe catcalling is an issue until they're just far enough behind a couple women, instead of walking alongside them, in an area where there's a lot of random harassment. They then share this revelation and every woman I know is like "we told you though..." Maybe they're all very lucky, but the stats about sexual assault alone suggest you know some survivors. So how many more folks have just dealt with some shitty behavior that sets their alarms off? Most of us brush it off most of the time.
I didn't tell my male friends when I was catcalled. I talked about it at work a little because it happened on campus, and later I made a point of talking about it in an educational way for certain folks. I have an ex who was "Me Too'd" on a small scale. I've met multiple abusers just because those assholes like to come to nerdy events and make asshole comments about teenage girls there. And one guy impacts a ton of other people. And without clear concise action from the other men to shut it down, women don't know who to trust with it, so whisper network.
The app specifically I can't speak for, I don't know anyone who was on it but search "dating the same guy" on Facebook to see all the groups that pop up, including probably a local one. This isn't new. But maybe it's not a thing in your locale. Idk. If y'all are much better about shutting those jerks down, then maybe the anxiety isn't there.
(When I did this search my friends post about one of these groups and why the guy she was dating gave her a weird feeling and she used the group to get info. He was lying about his age and marital status, I forgot she posted that. )
ETA. About the bear thing, lots of folks didn't know about it, it was viral but that doesn't mean "everyone" knows, ya know. That said, women weren't throwing down over it. Most comments were like, a) the bear will probably walk away, b)if the bear attacks me, I'll likely be believed that the bear attacked me, and c) people probably won't blame me for getting attacked by the bear.
You can still see comments like "the bear every time" on stories about a man killing, harassing, abusing, etc. a woman.
I don't have too much time to reply now, so just the important part: I didn't want to say that those things do not happen, whether here or there. The point I wanted to get to is that around me...
I don't have too much time to reply now, so just the important part: I didn't want to say that those things do not happen, whether here or there.
The point I wanted to get to is that around me they seem to happen either way less frequently or less severely, because it doesn't seem to create the generalized fear of men that I see online on US-centric internet, including here. The first part of the sentence I cannot guarantee for reasons that you state, but I do sometimes have conversations on these topics I'm quite sure are genuine and open enough, and I do know a few survivors, yes. But about the second part: the whole point of that "vibe" regarding men being dangerous is to be visible and communicate it to men and other women. I cannot speak for how prevalent it is in irl groups of people around where you live, social media may amplify it, but around here I see almost nothing like it either online or irl. I don't feel like significant parts of our society think that there's a general problem with men being predators (or whatever related words we choose). When bad stuff happens, it's generally seen as uncommon and a problem of meeting a bad person rather than a problem with men.
I've seen multiple guys not believe catcalling is an issue until they're just far enough behind a couple women, instead of walking alongside them, in an area where there's a lot of random harassment.
An anecdote, more because I think it's funny than to make a point (and the point would be that catcalling perhaps is less prevalent than elsewhere, not that catcalling is actually good). A friend of mine is from Moldova and immigrated here when she was 19 I think. I don't know if it applies to Moldova in general or just her area and the time period, but catcalling was done regularly without being too vulgar and seen as positive. When she moved to Czechia and nobody catcalled her, she felt kind of sad, thinking she ceased to look attractive.
(For some people this probably feels kind of sad, but she's an outspoken feminist and she doesn't see it this way, it was just a change of culture that she adapted to relatively quickly.)
Catcalling here is generally intended to make women feel uncomfortable, not to compliment them. A fifteen year old, yelling out the passenger side of a minivan about my ass is never going to be...
Catcalling here is generally intended to make women feel uncomfortable, not to compliment them. A fifteen year old, yelling out the passenger side of a minivan about my ass is never going to be complimentary. The anecdote along these lines that I just heard which made me think of it, was the men witnessing the catcalling being amazed that the construction workers would say something, then immediately go back to their conversations with each other without pause for a reaction. The whole purpose seemed to be to make the women feel less safe not compliment, not actually flirt, just unsettle.
I don't walk around all day scared of men, but just like I wear my seatbelt, I've also taken precautions on first dates. I'd agree that running into the "bad ones" is an exception. But if you have a big bowl of M&Ms, and a small percentage are poisoned, would you like a way to vet the candy for safety? Especially if the response to finding one that makes you sick is "well you probably deserved that." I'm not scared of the M&Ms, I'm scared of the consequences of finding a bad one by accident.
Like I said, I can't speak to where you are. Maybe things are wonderful there on gender. Being catcalled frequently, would, for example, be awful for me. But I'm not there so I can't say.
I agree, but this thinking has limits and some disagreements probably stem from where the limits are for each person. Multiple times have I seen it used about black people and violent crime. That...
I'd agree that running into the "bad ones" is an exception. But if you have a big bowl of M&Ms, and a small percentage are poisoned, would you like a way to vet the candy for safety?
I agree, but this thinking has limits and some disagreements probably stem from where the limits are for each person. Multiple times have I seen it used about black people and violent crime. That can also be backed with data if you're motivated to do so. Yet most people understand that if they do believe it, they should be very careful about not applying it indiscriminately and doing so is generally shunned with pretty good reasons.
This is not the same argument made about Black people and crime, that is almost always people alleging that a large number of Black people are committing much more crime than white people and...
This is not the same argument made about Black people and crime, that is almost always people alleging that a large number of Black people are committing much more crime than white people and trying to highlight percentages of populations.
That is a racist argument that most Black people are dangerous and is tied to claiming they're inherently violent due to their nature. And it's very much not the same as women being worried about abusive behaviors, or checking if someone is cheating, or warn their friends off someone on the people they're dating. It's not indiscriminate, generally it's pretty intentional and based on a mix of gut feelings and peer advice.
This does occur in queer contexts too, fwiw, I'm not in gay male exclusive spaces, so I can't speak to that, but in the femme/non-binary spaces I see the same "check-ins" and warnings. Same with kink spaces where you'd think you wouldn't need to screen people (usually dom/mes) for not violating consent since it's supposed to be baked into the practice, and yet oh boy do you.
We're talking mostly about straight men and women here because that's the topic of the thread. I know plenty of men have awful experiences with dating - I don't know if they're supporting each other with that the way many women do. @Evie noted that womens' whisper networks have already been insufficient at protecting all women. So other groups cobble together their own.
And our government doesn't actually care about men who are dangerous, this administration is actually full of people who have sexually harassed and assaulted their wives, ex-wives, children, teenagers, etc. so what else are we to do? Those men don't tend to end up in jail, so we get to look for the red flags and try to find them before they put us in the hospital.
Years ago, there was a gossip website linked to Facebook. It was supposed to allow women to talk about men they dated, and because it was linked to Facebook, they could easily direct others to...
Years ago, there was a gossip website linked to Facebook. It was supposed to allow women to talk about men they dated, and because it was linked to Facebook, they could easily direct others to men's profiles. I thought that was an absurd breach of privacy, so I updated my status informing that I was leaving. The response to me was extremely aggressive. My concern about privacy was completely misunderstood. Apparently I was being sexist or something. I was, in their view, a "pig" trying to hide my indiscretions.
Even people who knew me in real life mocked me. One of them mocked me in person. It was very traumatic. I was caught in some kind of war. I am often in that situation. I'm just a weird guy who says weird stuff in weird ways that are misunderstood in the absolute worst ways possible.
I still think gossip websites are no good, but, of course, this is more complicated than it seems. They might not be telling you about such a stressful part of their lives, but many women do live in fear of men. In a way that is hard for men to even comprehend. Of course, men also fear many things. But we're not talking about that right now.
So: gossip websites are garbage. They are awful and shouldn't exist. That said, because what women go through in regards to some specific forms of abuse is markedly worse than men's, I would still consider a gossip website for women to talk about men more acceptable than a website in which men talked about women.
I don't disagree, but from my point of view it doesn't outweight the issues. I understand why people say this, they don't know me and this is how it is around them. But I still wish they didn't....
That said, because what women go through in regards to some specific forms of abuse is markedly worse than men's, I would still consider a gossip website for women to talk about men more acceptable than a website in which men talked about women.
I don't disagree, but from my point of view it doesn't outweight the issues.
They might not be telling you about such a stressful part of their lives, but many women do live in fear of men.
I understand why people say this, they don't know me and this is how it is around them. But I still wish they didn't. Realize that it's impossible for me to explain why I don't believe this is the case in my circles without writing binders full of text that I don't have the time to write and you don't have the time to read, and it's also annoying as an argument because it's a way to say "well, no, the answer to why the thing you describe exists is that it doesn't exist." Yes, I do believe many women do live in fear of men, but they seem exceedingly common in certain parts of the internet and exceedingly rare in my surroundings, and I don't have an answer for why that is either.
Oof, this was a concept I was wishing out loud for a month ago. And then I heard of it yesterday and changed my mind. I forgot people misuse and abuse systems all the time. It's just to...
Oof, this was a concept I was wishing out loud for a month ago. And then I heard of it yesterday and changed my mind. I forgot people misuse and abuse systems all the time. It's just to tantalizing to think that we can build perfect systems that crowdsource wisdom, but a rule should be that crowdsourcing opinions on people gets messy quickly.
Side note: if there were some 75k images leaked and roughly 15k were verification photos, does that mean that about 60k were photos of men who were posted involuntarily? I've also heard rumors that the second data leak (of DMs) included a lot of nude photos of men being exchanged.
If there are nude photos of men being exchanged (presumably nonconsensually given the context of the app) that should be prosecutable. Depending on state law of course, but that falls into the...
If there are nude photos of men being exchanged (presumably nonconsensually given the context of the app) that should be prosecutable. Depending on state law of course, but that falls into the so-called revenge porn laws. (Non-consensual dissemination of sexually explicit images is at least close to the technical term)
It's one of those things I wouldn't want to personally verify, but it's shocking that the app not only still exists, but is #4 on Apple's top free apps list. Edit: and to be clear, I meant it's...
It's one of those things I wouldn't want to personally verify, but it's shocking that the app not only still exists, but is #4 on Apple's top free apps list. Edit: and to be clear, I meant it's shocking that everyone's data is being leaked and Apple/Google haven't moved.
It usually takes a bit longer for an app to reach the level of "shut down and yank off store." I mean otherwise you'd have to pull any app with a data breach which would include Google and Apple...
It usually takes a bit longer for an app to reach the level of "shut down and yank off store." I mean otherwise you'd have to pull any app with a data breach which would include Google and Apple accounts.
I agree this one seems more of a liability though. Unclear what their guidelines are.
This is dumb. They should have built an app to take these assholes to court instead of continuing to keep these accusations in the shadows which is exactly what got us here in the first place....
This is dumb. They should have built an app to take these assholes to court instead of continuing to keep these accusations in the shadows which is exactly what got us here in the first place.
This app is putting women more at risk than they already were. Just by its nature its a target for abusive men to exploit.
Court requires giving testimony and meeting a burden of proof. As good as those things are, it exposes vulnerable people to risk be it physical, social, or reputational. And those burdens of proof...
Court requires giving testimony and meeting a burden of proof. As good as those things are, it exposes vulnerable people to risk be it physical, social, or reputational. And those burdens of proof are hard to clear in these sorts of cases.
This is an extrajudicial system that has the same flaws, and none of the protections of the legal system. Whether the targets here are less vulnerable in your eyes or not, evidentiary standards...
it exposes vulnerable people to risk be it physical, social, or reputational.
This is an extrajudicial system that has the same flaws, and none of the protections of the legal system.
Whether the targets here are less vulnerable in your eyes or not, evidentiary standards exist for a reason, as does the right to face one’s accuser.
If it truly has all the flaws and none of the protections then women wouldn't use it. And I get the discomfort with the possibility of being libeled without knowing. But it's a bit much to say the...
If it truly has all the flaws and none of the protections then women wouldn't use it.
And I get the discomfort with the possibility of being libeled without knowing. But it's a bit much to say the app isn't addressing at least some of the negative aspects of the judicial process while also recognizing it creates other issues.
This does not follow - the app has all of the flaws, but the impact is limited to a subset of population (i.e. men) who are barred from accessing the space. So it inherently filters users to those...
If it truly has all the flaws and none of the protections then women wouldn't use it.
This does not follow - the app has all of the flaws, but the impact is limited to a subset of population (i.e. men) who are barred from accessing the space. So it inherently filters users to those who are not impacted by the flaws, but those flaws are still present.
The anonymous nature of the app, combined with the fact that the group of people being spoken about are unable to even see what is being said about themselves, means that the targets are stripped of the protections they have within the legal system. They have no recourse if they are being defamed, which can have real and serious repercussions on their lives.
I don't usually play this side of the debate, but that is a very man-centeic view of things and not what I meant at all when I described the flaws of the judicial setting. The flaws of the...
This does not follow - the app has all of the flaws, but the impact is limited to a subset of population (i.e. men) who are barred from accessing the space.
I don't usually play this side of the debate, but that is a very man-centeic view of things and not what I meant at all when I described the flaws of the judicial setting. The flaws of the judicial setting is that it exposes the plaintiff's to risk of retaliation. And yes, false claims are damaging to innocent men at times, but I already mentioned harms to both groups in this scenario.
So no, the app isn't identical to the judicial system for the women because the app gives them a basic shield against retaliation... that is when the app isn't making a mess of their security.
I take issue with the way you’re framing this. It is not a “man-centric” view to say that all people should be subject to the same sets of rules and protections. I’ve stated that I understand the...
I take issue with the way you’re framing this. It is not a “man-centric” view to say that all people should be subject to the same sets of rules and protections.
I’ve stated that I understand the reasons this app exists, and why people feel they want/need to use it. I simply don’t think that the ends justify the means here, when “the means” strips a significant population of their options for legal recourse in a scenario that can have life-ruining consequences.
I'm not really sure how you think I'm framing this. I replied to a different person talking about how they should have built an app to take people to court. All I did was point out the reasons...
I'm not really sure how you think I'm framing this. I replied to a different person talking about how they should have built an app to take people to court. All I did was point out the reasons women might avoid that.
You then replied to me, seemingly taking that as some sort of endorsement of the app. All I've done in this particular comment chain is highlight the difference between the app and seeking a judicial remedy.
I take issue with the way you’re framing this. It is not a “man-centric” view to say that all people should be subject to the same sets of rules and protections.
I never said different groups should have different rules. I said it was man centric to equate the use of the app to seeking a judicial remedy because it requires overlooking the difference in exposure to the women.
Look, I'm not endorsing the app, and I've noted issues with it elsewhere in the thread. But there is no way around the fact that using an anonymous app to leave a review is a different level of exposure than attaching your name to a criminal complaint or civil suit. This creates other issues for sure. But calling these things 1-1 remedies is just not factual, and you can only get to identical flaws if you overlook the risk to plaintiff's.
I definitely get the sentiment. I suppose the question is, what could the founder of the app do to fix the judicial process as compared to building the app? If anything, the success of the app...
I definitely get the sentiment. I suppose the question is, what could the founder of the app do to fix the judicial process as compared to building the app? If anything, the success of the app could resource an effort of incremental change. Though certain challenges will always exist with burden of proof and he said she said scenarios.
Worth noting that the founder of the app pretty clearly didn’t give a shit about the women using it in this case - they straight up lied and claimed not to store the IDs at all, and then not only...
Worth noting that the founder of the app pretty clearly didn’t give a shit about the women using it in this case - they straight up lied and claimed not to store the IDs at all, and then not only stored them indefinitely, but dumped them in public storage without so much as a password. It was just a money grab, not an earnest attempt to protect people.
I mention it because I agree with a lot of what you’ve said in this thread in the abstract, but I do think it’s relevant that the developer really wasn’t looking out for anyone in this instance: not the users, not the people being discussed, nobody. The fact that it was this version of the concept that managed to hit viral growth, not a version made in good faith by someone genuinely trying to balance the risks and concerns for everyone involved, is fairly concerning in and of itself.
That's a fair criticism for sure. You should always make sure data that's supposed to be purged is securely destroyed. In this case not only did that not happen, but entire systems of it were left...
That's a fair criticism for sure. You should always make sure data that's supposed to be purged is securely destroyed. In this case not only did that not happen, but entire systems of it were left to sit around even after being retired. Ensuring privacy would seem to be a top priority, but it wasn't treated that way
Not surely i entirely follow, what do you mean by: who is being taken to court and why?
Not surely i entirely follow, what do you mean by:
They should have built an app to take these assholes to court instead of continuing to keep these accusations in the shadows which is exactly what got us here in the first place.
I'm not a paranoid schizophrenic, but imagine if you were. You finally got yourself together, found medication that works, gone through the process of discovery to understand what "baseline" feels...
I'm not a paranoid schizophrenic, but imagine if you were. You finally got yourself together, found medication that works, gone through the process of discovery to understand what "baseline" feels like, built up the incredible levels of self-awareness needed to function, etc. Enough progress to feel like giving a relationship a try/a try again.
As if dating and relationship-building wasn't hard enough for the neuroatypical, before all of these "shadow socials."
Anybody with a vulnerability towards paranoid thinking is cooked.
this whole thing sucks. Someone made a 'Hot or Not' like game out of the photos, too. We need some form of anonymous ID verification that... probably goes through the government or something...
this whole thing sucks. Someone made a 'Hot or Not' like game out of the photos, too. We need some form of anonymous ID verification that... probably goes through the government or something instead of these startups.
Whisper networks like "Tea" arise in response to a massive societal problem: abusive, violent, dangerous and coercive men all too often face few or no consequences for their actions. Whether it be something as severe as using their power as an executive to pursue and pressure female employees, or something as "minor" as forcibly kissing someone on a date, men are all too often protected by each other, or by the legal system, or simply a quagmire of societal indifference. It makes sense, then, that women look for ways to protect themselves, to warn other women (and be warned) about dangerous men they've met. So they create these communities, share those experiences, to do just that.
But whisper networks, too, are broken. How could they not be? They're a last resort in a society that normalizes violence against women, a mere facsimile of justice. People take issue with the elements of these groups that feel like doxxing, or accusing men without evidence. Rightly so, might I add! But realize that this level of specificity is necessary to achieve the network's goals. Any evidence threshold, and a woman who was sexually assaulted by a date in his home wouldn't be able to share her experience. Any redaction of identifiers, and other women wouldn't be able to avoid him in the future.
But perhaps you'll notice the name of this particular whisper network. "Tea." Fundamentally, this app isn't billing itself as a sober-minded crowdsourced safety tool. It's billing itself as a platform for gossip, where stories of assault might coexist with stories of The Ick, a guy who maybe was awkward and weird on a first date. I haven't used the app or experienced its culture. But to me, it doesn't present itself as a tool for protecting women. It presents itself as a shade room.
Here's the elephant in the shade room. Whisper networks like Tea, in addition to the above issues, almost never aim to protect all women. As I understand it, the reason Tea collected and stored all these IDs was to determine that its users were really women. But what about me, a trans woman who (often) passes, who is arguably more at risk from dangerous men, but who has an "M" on my driver's license? It's not just Tea, either. I've heard stories from black women who have come to their (white) female coworkers to warn them about their boss after a creepy incident only to be told "oh, yeah, we know, didn't anyone tell you?" You might have noticed that this comment feels a bit reductionist, painting (conventional, 'normal') women exclusively as victims, and men as aggressors. This framework often underpins whisper networks, but to be clear, it is false. Though men are more often dangerous, more often perpetrators of sexual assault, intimate partner violence, and workplace harassment (actually, pretty much every crime) women can also be abusers, of men or other women.
So of course, "Tea" and apps and services and communities like it are not a solution to violence against women (or bad dating experiences). But I sympathize with the people who create and use them, because often, these communities can feel like the only thing that's even a partial solution, especially now, when, for example, my country's leader is an out-and-proud misogynistic rapist. And of course, any way of fighting back against this misogyny, perfect or not, will be seen by the millions and millions of people who agree with him as evil, as a deserving target of massive privacy beaches, doxxing and harassment. Seems like Tea has made it easy for them.
Ugh I wrote a whole thing and it got deleted by the whims of the app. I really appreciate your perspective and even when whisper networks are in, for example queer and gender affirming spaces, it doesn't mean they're racially equitable. Privilege works to defend itself even in spaces where you'd think the people would "get" it.
(I am reminded of the man vs bear side conversation among Black women about "White woman or white man" where many white women reacted as defensively to the realization that Black women chose then white man as many men reacted to the choice of "bear"
I didn't realize until this post that Tea was collecting IDs and doing "real woman" verification. I don't know whether they were excluding trans women but it sounds like they'd be excluding non-binary folks by default.
Whisper networks are the cobbled together solution to try to create safety, especially in the era of "Me too was overblown" (we learned the wrong lesson/privilege protects itself) but they're never going to solve it. But also I see the responses saying all these folks should have gone to the police, and it suggests to me people have no idea what actually happens when the police get involved, if they bother, and how ineffective things like Orders of Protection are, even when actually enforced.
It's frustrating that even now people don't see the problem even as so many people are trying to cobble together solutions and make safety plans.
I know this wasn’t your main point, but now that you say it I do think the “cobbled together” part is very relevant. For all the inherent risks and flaws, they were at least grassroots groups with the original goal of safety.
Take the same concept, package and brand and monetise it, add some KPIs, scale it, and look what happened…
Yeah I agree. I don't know the motivations of the creator of the app, he claims it was after his mom had online dating issues but he's also identified as a "tech capitalist" which I'm not sure has a defined meaning but suggests strongly wanting to make money. He also allegedly has basically no experience which would track with the breaches.
Also the fact that people were discussing abortions was a whole other wrinkle in potential consequences here. Everything from criminal charges to bounty lawsuits to social consequences
There's a class action suit now for what good it may do
AFAIK they collected either photos of ID or face photos, and they did not exclude trans women. Non-binary prople, yeah, probably.
Does that mean they had a team of people whose job it was to judge if someone was actually trans? Seems like a nightmare of bias. The whole concept is rotten to its core.
In an app made specifically for women this seems like an inevitable problem.
As of right now, it's fully an unknown process. I'm not optimistic about it but I don't think I can assume the worst case with more info. There's more than enough problems with the app as it stands
The linked article says the process is unclear so I won't assume either way. Trans folks often have IDs that don't match their gender like @Evie described. I haven't dug much further on that part
I have some personal experience with this type of thing, so I think I can chime in a bit here.
When I was single a few years back, I was doing a fair bit of dating. I was seeing a woman, and things were off right from the beginning. She was extremely jealous, combative, mean spirited, hated my hobbies and wanted me to change into her ideal man. I struggled with her for over a month, way longer than I should have, and eventually I told her we needed to break up.
In that month, I confided in a lot of female friends how things were going; emotional, verbal and physical abuse, having to constantly cater to her insecurities, trying to bend over backwards to make sure she stayed happy. They all encouraged me to end it after I told them about how it was going and I finally did.
Then, about a week later, one of them noticed a post with my face on it on one of those "are we dating the same guy" Facebook groups. It was this girl, asking "if anyone had any tea on papasquat". She was accusing me of cheating on her, and people were commenting saying that I looked like an abuser, that I shouldn't be trusted, and all of these other horrible things.
I never cheated on her, I never even came close to cheating on her, and honestly the thought of cheating on her was the furthest thing from my mind during that month. I was honestly just trying to keep myself sane and stop my life from falling apart because of this awful relationship.
I told my sister about it and she was pissed. She messaged the admins of the group to try to get the post removed, contacted Facebook, but no dice. As far as I know, that post of me is still up on that page.
Thankfully, even though I did more dating after that, no one had ever mentioned seeing that post, but then again, how would I know?
How many people decided not to take their chance on going out with me, or being my friend, or offering me a job because of some random accusation from a stranger in the internet? Who knows.
The whole thing felt like a massive violation and has always left a really bad taste in my mouth for these types of public witch hunt forums.
I'm not surprised that this one has security problems. The entire premise is just based on hearsay and rumor.
It's also ironic to me that they're offering their users "free identity protection services" as compensation for leaking their data, since the entire purpose of the site seems to be destroying other people's online identities.
Dude the same exact thing happened to me! Except it was actually my ex who I'd cut all contact with after she started threatening suicide if we didn't get back together.
I only found out through a girl on a dating app where we had gotten along super well who told me why she didn't want to see me again. She said she liked me so I deserved to know why she needed to stop talking to me. She even said that the post sounded far fetched but she can't take chances. She blocked me before I could respond.
The thing is, the post was like several months old, and in that time I'd had dates and gotten ghosted several times from what I thought was completely out of the blue.
The post had fake text messages of me threatening to murder her cat WITH THE IFAKETEXTMESSAGE.COM WATERMARK STILL VISIBLE! Even had a picture of her cat at the vet from when she got attacked by a dog before we even met.
So many comments saying I probably murdered cats when I was a kid and was a serial killer, and of course no mention of my cat that I absolutely adore or the fact I used to foster kittens to keep them out of kill shelters and my cat's a foster fail. The contrast with reality would be comical if it didn't tangibly impact my life.
The comments were the same, a lot of people tearing everything about me apart.
The most frustrating thing about the comments is everyone so willing to believe the post and say hateful things about me, that not a single person saw the ifaketextmessage.com watermark on the text messages.
I did get a lawyer friend involved in a very threatening sounding cease and desist letter and attaching screenshots showing the post with watermarks and REAL text messages showing her abuse and had it certified delivered to both her and her parents who she was still living with.
Post was deleted shortly after. Probably could have sued for slander or libel or whatever but frankly I just wanted it down at the time.
But like that entire experience cut deep. It tainted my views on dating for a while always wondering if there was a post out there and out of the blue someone would see it and ghost me fearing for their safety.
Honestly I've been single and only dating off and on ever since.
Dating in the age of the internet is a legitimate nightmare. Sorry you went through that, I wish people could use common sense and read things like watermarks (but I understand that is asking far, far too much of people).
Given the behavior that’s proven common in other corners of the internet, it wouldn’t surprise me if some number saw the watermark and realized that the screenshots were faked but consciously ignored it and just went along with it anyway.
There are some (men and women alike) who live for drama and getting whipped up about others’ wrongdoing and aren’t above setting reality aside when needed to make the magic happen. I’ve encountered such individuals bold enough to engage in this behavior in real life, and it’s even more common online where the internet can act as protective insulation.
Sounds like an absolute nightmare situation and was exactly what I imagined when I first heard about this whole snafu. So sorry you went through something like that, it would give me trust issues for anyone I met and talked to in the future.
Not gonna get into the whole "Are We Dating The Same Guy" debate. But what I will say is that Tea is a textbook example of how mandatory ID verification can backfire, and why the UK's Online Safety Act needs to be repealed.
If this is what happens to users of a "dating safety" platform that claims to delete this data once users are verified, imagine how porn sites and their partner companies are going to treat your data.
The first data breach revealed 72,000 images, including 13,000 photo IDs that had been submitted for account verification (source). Now, 1.1 million DMs from the platform have leaked (source - archive link).
Tea is a dating safety app, but these data breaches have left Tea's users vulnerable. As well, Tea encourages its users to upload pictures of other people without requiring their knowledge or consent.
From the article:
What do you think of the data breaches, and of Tea?
I think this app was ripe for abuse, even before the data breach. I get why it’s appealing for people on the surface, but the implications of an app like this are troubling. Particularly when the targets have no recourse to address libelous statements, no ability to control the use of their likeness, etc.
This seems like it would certainly run afoul of EU laws, but even if legal in the US, I think it’s unethical in its implementation.
I literally heard about Tea yesterday as someone made a video doing an excellent job of providing a case for it being needed (He was accusing someone on there of being his ex-wife, but then also saying he'd found that user's GPS, address, etc and it matched what town his ex of SEVENTEEN years had lived in and claimed he'd take her back to custody court - for a 17 year old? I guess? I don't think that proved what he thought it did. )He gave off some very concerning vibes.
I don't know enough about the app to actually have an opinion other than clearly their data security is poor. I'd say that whisper networks have always existed among women for safety, and there are any number of "are we dating the same guy" Facebook groups out there. I'm not sure this is functionally different than that from what it sounds like. I've strongly disliked being in spaces with people who had multiple accusations of abuse against them, but no one wanted to address the missing stair so we all just warned each other to watch out. This is the apparently what was happening with Neil Gaiman for a long time - a more public reputation for hitting on young fans at cons, and a much more quiet whisper network of "do not leave her alone with him"
I don't know that that means it's "good" by any means, but I'm not sure it's worse than everything else. And the whisper networks save lives. They may also destroy lives. I'm not sure. Open to hearing others' thoughts since the app itself is much more unknown.
This has extremely neatly summed up what’s been spinning through my mind since hearing about this app a week or so ago.
The core premise is a sad necessity because some men are dangerous. The concept is incredibly open to abuse because being a shitty person knows no gender, and the app is necessarily one sided. The choice to give it a name that evokes gossip more than safety is… dubious, but not a smoking gun in terms of the developer’s intent.
It’s raised an interesting conversation with no straightforward solutions, at the very least! It’s just a shame that the developer who got the traction to do so was wildly incompetent (a huge amount of data was just there, publicly, on the internet - no password, no security, nothing), and was an outright liar to boot (the app claimed that ID documents weren’t stored in the first place). It means that there was never even a theoretical hope for them to engage with and try to address the risks of abuse inherent to an app like this, if that’s possible at all, because they were clearly just in it to pump the user numbers and try to make some profit at bare minimum cost.
[Edit] Clarity
The developers seem almost criminally negligent. I hope all the women affected by these data breaches put together a class action lawsuit and sue the pants off these clowns.
My first thought reading all of this sort of stuff is "dear God I'm glad I'm decades out of the dating scene" because it seems grim from the outside.
Regarding the controversy of the app, I get the value for women, and the potential to defame men. Is that fair? No. But it's not fair that women need something like this, so it all sort of sucks in general. Sometimes life and society is about balancing harms. Additionally, if you can see a users comment history (I don't know if you can or not) then if they do nothing but hate on men you can probably disregard their input. If it is completely anonymized so you can't see those patterns, then it would be harder to ignore noise, especially in low population areas where there aren't enough votes/comments to reflect reality.
What was that dating site years ago that encouraged people to have an affair and got hacked and leaked? I would think people would learn their lesson about not hardening services they know are controversial.
But really, I'll just reiterate I'm so glad not to be in the dating scene.
Ashley Madison?
That was it!
I imagine a lot of people were sweating that data breach!
I'm happy to see an article on this that does not simply describe Tea as a women's safety app without further elaboration. Describing it so is like describing 4chan as a forum for people to discuss their hobbies - it's the stated purpose, it's even true to an extent, but if someone is trying to tell me that's the whole truth I'm going to think they either don't know much about it or are being disingenuous.
Two small thoughts.
First: this seems like it was designed to be a gossip app from the get go. Even the marketing on their website basically says this is not just about safety. If men made a gossip app about their ex partners out there in the open and marketed it as something great, it would be an immediate scandal. I acknowledge the difference in that this app did have an additional feature in the safety aspect, but other than that I do not think that women are generally somehow more moral and expecting them to not abuse it seems straight up nonsensical. There are enough dumb, nasty, immoral people of both sexes.
Second: is US or generally western society really this fucked, or am I just living within several large lucky bubbles? I don't think I know a single woman who said she would choose a bear in that dilemma that was trending for a while (or, to be fair, I don't think I know any that even cared about that without somebody else bringing it up). I don't know a single woman who ever complained about repeatedly meeting abusers and felt a need to have a shared abuser registry. I am a man, but a slight majority of my close friends are women, and as confrontational as I sometimes am online, I tend to be relatively nonjudgemental irl and have talked about these topics with women aged approximately 22 - 60 with quite different backgrounds.
The only one who I believe may have welcomed something like Tea without the obvious gossip aspects is a woman who was heavily abused by a family member as either a kid or teenager or both - I don't know the details, but I do know it was considerably worse than what you generally read about in threads like this. Understandable. Other than that, the fear of men that I see on the american internet doesn't really exist around me. Is it the culture or am I just really lucky with the groups that I'm implicitly a member of? It feels like it at the least has to be both.
I don't know a woman that doesn't have a story about a scary or abusive encounter with a guy. I've literally tracked my friends' location on dates or been the person who they have shared their date's info with in case they get kidnapped or murdered. Multiple LARP and gaming groups have had the "watch out for this guy" message passed along to me or where I've stood "guard" so someone didn't end up alone. Now these aren't all dating situations and this app wouldn't have solved all of it even if it were perfect, but getting to "vet" someone for safety is incredibly appealing for those reasons.
I cannot speak to the women you know, but many don't discuss this with men, because they don't want to have to defend it, explain it, or prove that the harassment happens. I've seen multiple guys not believe catcalling is an issue until they're just far enough behind a couple women, instead of walking alongside them, in an area where there's a lot of random harassment. They then share this revelation and every woman I know is like "we told you though..." Maybe they're all very lucky, but the stats about sexual assault alone suggest you know some survivors. So how many more folks have just dealt with some shitty behavior that sets their alarms off? Most of us brush it off most of the time.
I didn't tell my male friends when I was catcalled. I talked about it at work a little because it happened on campus, and later I made a point of talking about it in an educational way for certain folks. I have an ex who was "Me Too'd" on a small scale. I've met multiple abusers just because those assholes like to come to nerdy events and make asshole comments about teenage girls there. And one guy impacts a ton of other people. And without clear concise action from the other men to shut it down, women don't know who to trust with it, so whisper network.
The app specifically I can't speak for, I don't know anyone who was on it but search "dating the same guy" on Facebook to see all the groups that pop up, including probably a local one. This isn't new. But maybe it's not a thing in your locale. Idk. If y'all are much better about shutting those jerks down, then maybe the anxiety isn't there.
(When I did this search my friends post about one of these groups and why the guy she was dating gave her a weird feeling and she used the group to get info. He was lying about his age and marital status, I forgot she posted that. )
ETA. About the bear thing, lots of folks didn't know about it, it was viral but that doesn't mean "everyone" knows, ya know. That said, women weren't throwing down over it. Most comments were like, a) the bear will probably walk away, b)if the bear attacks me, I'll likely be believed that the bear attacked me, and c) people probably won't blame me for getting attacked by the bear.
You can still see comments like "the bear every time" on stories about a man killing, harassing, abusing, etc. a woman.
I don't have too much time to reply now, so just the important part: I didn't want to say that those things do not happen, whether here or there.
The point I wanted to get to is that around me they seem to happen either way less frequently or less severely, because it doesn't seem to create the generalized fear of men that I see online on US-centric internet, including here. The first part of the sentence I cannot guarantee for reasons that you state, but I do sometimes have conversations on these topics I'm quite sure are genuine and open enough, and I do know a few survivors, yes. But about the second part: the whole point of that "vibe" regarding men being dangerous is to be visible and communicate it to men and other women. I cannot speak for how prevalent it is in irl groups of people around where you live, social media may amplify it, but around here I see almost nothing like it either online or irl. I don't feel like significant parts of our society think that there's a general problem with men being predators (or whatever related words we choose). When bad stuff happens, it's generally seen as uncommon and a problem of meeting a bad person rather than a problem with men.
An anecdote, more because I think it's funny than to make a point (and the point would be that catcalling perhaps is less prevalent than elsewhere, not that catcalling is actually good). A friend of mine is from Moldova and immigrated here when she was 19 I think. I don't know if it applies to Moldova in general or just her area and the time period, but catcalling was done regularly without being too vulgar and seen as positive. When she moved to Czechia and nobody catcalled her, she felt kind of sad, thinking she ceased to look attractive.
(For some people this probably feels kind of sad, but she's an outspoken feminist and she doesn't see it this way, it was just a change of culture that she adapted to relatively quickly.)
Catcalling here is generally intended to make women feel uncomfortable, not to compliment them. A fifteen year old, yelling out the passenger side of a minivan about my ass is never going to be complimentary. The anecdote along these lines that I just heard which made me think of it, was the men witnessing the catcalling being amazed that the construction workers would say something, then immediately go back to their conversations with each other without pause for a reaction. The whole purpose seemed to be to make the women feel less safe not compliment, not actually flirt, just unsettle.
I don't walk around all day scared of men, but just like I wear my seatbelt, I've also taken precautions on first dates. I'd agree that running into the "bad ones" is an exception. But if you have a big bowl of M&Ms, and a small percentage are poisoned, would you like a way to vet the candy for safety? Especially if the response to finding one that makes you sick is "well you probably deserved that." I'm not scared of the M&Ms, I'm scared of the consequences of finding a bad one by accident.
Like I said, I can't speak to where you are. Maybe things are wonderful there on gender. Being catcalled frequently, would, for example, be awful for me. But I'm not there so I can't say.
I agree, but this thinking has limits and some disagreements probably stem from where the limits are for each person. Multiple times have I seen it used about black people and violent crime. That can also be backed with data if you're motivated to do so. Yet most people understand that if they do believe it, they should be very careful about not applying it indiscriminately and doing so is generally shunned with pretty good reasons.
This is not the same argument made about Black people and crime, that is almost always people alleging that a large number of Black people are committing much more crime than white people and trying to highlight percentages of populations.
That is a racist argument that most Black people are dangerous and is tied to claiming they're inherently violent due to their nature. And it's very much not the same as women being worried about abusive behaviors, or checking if someone is cheating, or warn their friends off someone on the people they're dating. It's not indiscriminate, generally it's pretty intentional and based on a mix of gut feelings and peer advice.
This does occur in queer contexts too, fwiw, I'm not in gay male exclusive spaces, so I can't speak to that, but in the femme/non-binary spaces I see the same "check-ins" and warnings. Same with kink spaces where you'd think you wouldn't need to screen people (usually dom/mes) for not violating consent since it's supposed to be baked into the practice, and yet oh boy do you.
We're talking mostly about straight men and women here because that's the topic of the thread. I know plenty of men have awful experiences with dating - I don't know if they're supporting each other with that the way many women do. @Evie noted that womens' whisper networks have already been insufficient at protecting all women. So other groups cobble together their own.
And our government doesn't actually care about men who are dangerous, this administration is actually full of people who have sexually harassed and assaulted their wives, ex-wives, children, teenagers, etc. so what else are we to do? Those men don't tend to end up in jail, so we get to look for the red flags and try to find them before they put us in the hospital.
Years ago, there was a gossip website linked to Facebook. It was supposed to allow women to talk about men they dated, and because it was linked to Facebook, they could easily direct others to men's profiles. I thought that was an absurd breach of privacy, so I updated my status informing that I was leaving. The response to me was extremely aggressive. My concern about privacy was completely misunderstood. Apparently I was being sexist or something. I was, in their view, a "pig" trying to hide my indiscretions.
Even people who knew me in real life mocked me. One of them mocked me in person. It was very traumatic. I was caught in some kind of war. I am often in that situation. I'm just a weird guy who says weird stuff in weird ways that are misunderstood in the absolute worst ways possible.
I still think gossip websites are no good, but, of course, this is more complicated than it seems. They might not be telling you about such a stressful part of their lives, but many women do live in fear of men. In a way that is hard for men to even comprehend. Of course, men also fear many things. But we're not talking about that right now.
So: gossip websites are garbage. They are awful and shouldn't exist. That said, because what women go through in regards to some specific forms of abuse is markedly worse than men's, I would still consider a gossip website for women to talk about men more acceptable than a website in which men talked about women.
I don't disagree, but from my point of view it doesn't outweight the issues.
I understand why people say this, they don't know me and this is how it is around them. But I still wish they didn't. Realize that it's impossible for me to explain why I don't believe this is the case in my circles without writing binders full of text that I don't have the time to write and you don't have the time to read, and it's also annoying as an argument because it's a way to say "well, no, the answer to why the thing you describe exists is that it doesn't exist." Yes, I do believe many women do live in fear of men, but they seem exceedingly common in certain parts of the internet and exceedingly rare in my surroundings, and I don't have an answer for why that is either.
Oof, this was a concept I was wishing out loud for a month ago. And then I heard of it yesterday and changed my mind. I forgot people misuse and abuse systems all the time. It's just to tantalizing to think that we can build perfect systems that crowdsource wisdom, but a rule should be that crowdsourcing opinions on people gets messy quickly.
Side note: if there were some 75k images leaked and roughly 15k were verification photos, does that mean that about 60k were photos of men who were posted involuntarily? I've also heard rumors that the second data leak (of DMs) included a lot of nude photos of men being exchanged.
If there are nude photos of men being exchanged (presumably nonconsensually given the context of the app) that should be prosecutable. Depending on state law of course, but that falls into the so-called revenge porn laws. (Non-consensual dissemination of sexually explicit images is at least close to the technical term)
It's one of those things I wouldn't want to personally verify, but it's shocking that the app not only still exists, but is #4 on Apple's top free apps list. Edit: and to be clear, I meant it's shocking that everyone's data is being leaked and Apple/Google haven't moved.
It usually takes a bit longer for an app to reach the level of "shut down and yank off store." I mean otherwise you'd have to pull any app with a data breach which would include Google and Apple accounts.
I agree this one seems more of a liability though. Unclear what their guidelines are.
This is dumb. They should have built an app to take these assholes to court instead of continuing to keep these accusations in the shadows which is exactly what got us here in the first place.
This app is putting women more at risk than they already were. Just by its nature its a target for abusive men to exploit.
Its not libel if its true.
Court requires giving testimony and meeting a burden of proof. As good as those things are, it exposes vulnerable people to risk be it physical, social, or reputational. And those burdens of proof are hard to clear in these sorts of cases.
This is an extrajudicial system that has the same flaws, and none of the protections of the legal system.
Whether the targets here are less vulnerable in your eyes or not, evidentiary standards exist for a reason, as does the right to face one’s accuser.
If it truly has all the flaws and none of the protections then women wouldn't use it.
And I get the discomfort with the possibility of being libeled without knowing. But it's a bit much to say the app isn't addressing at least some of the negative aspects of the judicial process while also recognizing it creates other issues.
This does not follow - the app has all of the flaws, but the impact is limited to a subset of population (i.e. men) who are barred from accessing the space. So it inherently filters users to those who are not impacted by the flaws, but those flaws are still present.
The anonymous nature of the app, combined with the fact that the group of people being spoken about are unable to even see what is being said about themselves, means that the targets are stripped of the protections they have within the legal system. They have no recourse if they are being defamed, which can have real and serious repercussions on their lives.
I don't usually play this side of the debate, but that is a very man-centeic view of things and not what I meant at all when I described the flaws of the judicial setting. The flaws of the judicial setting is that it exposes the plaintiff's to risk of retaliation. And yes, false claims are damaging to innocent men at times, but I already mentioned harms to both groups in this scenario.
So no, the app isn't identical to the judicial system for the women because the app gives them a basic shield against retaliation... that is when the app isn't making a mess of their security.
I take issue with the way you’re framing this. It is not a “man-centric” view to say that all people should be subject to the same sets of rules and protections.
I’ve stated that I understand the reasons this app exists, and why people feel they want/need to use it. I simply don’t think that the ends justify the means here, when “the means” strips a significant population of their options for legal recourse in a scenario that can have life-ruining consequences.
I'm not really sure how you think I'm framing this. I replied to a different person talking about how they should have built an app to take people to court. All I did was point out the reasons women might avoid that.
You then replied to me, seemingly taking that as some sort of endorsement of the app. All I've done in this particular comment chain is highlight the difference between the app and seeking a judicial remedy.
I never said different groups should have different rules. I said it was man centric to equate the use of the app to seeking a judicial remedy because it requires overlooking the difference in exposure to the women.
Look, I'm not endorsing the app, and I've noted issues with it elsewhere in the thread. But there is no way around the fact that using an anonymous app to leave a review is a different level of exposure than attaching your name to a criminal complaint or civil suit. This creates other issues for sure. But calling these things 1-1 remedies is just not factual, and you can only get to identical flaws if you overlook the risk to plaintiff's.
You get what I mean though right, this effort would be better spent on trying to change the system rather than perpetuating a bad system.
I definitely get the sentiment. I suppose the question is, what could the founder of the app do to fix the judicial process as compared to building the app? If anything, the success of the app could resource an effort of incremental change. Though certain challenges will always exist with burden of proof and he said she said scenarios.
But I get the sense of unease around it.
Worth noting that the founder of the app pretty clearly didn’t give a shit about the women using it in this case - they straight up lied and claimed not to store the IDs at all, and then not only stored them indefinitely, but dumped them in public storage without so much as a password. It was just a money grab, not an earnest attempt to protect people.
I mention it because I agree with a lot of what you’ve said in this thread in the abstract, but I do think it’s relevant that the developer really wasn’t looking out for anyone in this instance: not the users, not the people being discussed, nobody. The fact that it was this version of the concept that managed to hit viral growth, not a version made in good faith by someone genuinely trying to balance the risks and concerns for everyone involved, is fairly concerning in and of itself.
That's a fair criticism for sure. You should always make sure data that's supposed to be purged is securely destroyed. In this case not only did that not happen, but entire systems of it were left to sit around even after being retired. Ensuring privacy would seem to be a top priority, but it wasn't treated that way
Not surely i entirely follow, what do you mean by:
who is being taken to court and why?
I'm not a paranoid schizophrenic, but imagine if you were. You finally got yourself together, found medication that works, gone through the process of discovery to understand what "baseline" feels like, built up the incredible levels of self-awareness needed to function, etc. Enough progress to feel like giving a relationship a try/a try again.
As if dating and relationship-building wasn't hard enough for the neuroatypical, before all of these "shadow socials."
Anybody with a vulnerability towards paranoid thinking is cooked.
this whole thing sucks. Someone made a 'Hot or Not' like game out of the photos, too. We need some form of anonymous ID verification that... probably goes through the government or something instead of these startups.