18 votes

Walmart's newly patented technology for eavesdropping on workers presents privacy concerns

14 comments

  1. [2]
    Comment deleted by author
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    1. [2]
      Comment deleted by author
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      1. Luna
        Link Parent
        Corporations are legally people, that's why they can enter into contracts, sue and be sued, be forced to pay reparations when they break the law, and have 1st amendment rights. Who exactly would...
        1. Corporations are legally people, that's why they can enter into contracts, sue and be sued, be forced to pay reparations when they break the law, and have 1st amendment rights. Who exactly would get in trouble in a 2 party consent state and what the punishment would be, I'm not sure (and it would vary by state), but laws against recording without consent would still apply to them.
        2. There are some highly protected rights to privacy, but that's typically involving places like a bedroom or bathroom (that's why you cannot have security cameras record people in a bathroom or bedroom, at least not without explicit consent, which you'd need in writing to avoid a he-said/she-said situation that could end up with you being labelled a sex offender). Could they put up signs that say "by entering this building you agree to allow us to record everything you say and do outside the bathrooms"? Maybe. It would vary by state. You'd quickly run into problems with emergency services and minors who cannot or would not consent but are legally required to enter/forced to tag along with their parents (though technically their parents are consenting for their children). But I'm sure Walmart's lawyers are already hard at work lobbying to change recording consent laws...
  2. koma
    Link
    Jesus Christ, welcome to 1984.

    Jesus Christ, welcome to 1984.

    4 votes
  3. [11]
    SourceContribute
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    Which software developers are building this and why? Why aren't they raising red flags or whistle-blowing or actively sabotaging this (not that I advocate that)?

    Which software developers are building this and why? Why aren't they raising red flags or whistle-blowing or actively sabotaging this (not that I advocate that)?

    3 votes
    1. [8]
      rodya
      Link Parent
      In my experience CS people tend to have an attitude that they just want to work on their projects and not have to worry about anything else. A consistent source of ire at my university among CS...

      Why aren't they raising red flags or whistle-blowing or actively sabotaging this

      In my experience CS people tend to have an attitude that they just want to work on their projects and not have to worry about anything else. A consistent source of ire at my university among CS majors was the "ethics in technology" requirement which was basically exactly a discussion of these issues. People hated it, said it was bullshit, etc. It's a symptom of the larger issue where people want universities to be run like trade programs and not offer broad exposure to the humanities, arts, sciences, etc. In STEM this manifests as people who are really good at their field but are unwilling, unable, or simply don't think to consider the broader consequences of their work.

      The alternative explanation is that they're not fully aware of what the software is going to be used for.

      (not that I advocate that)

      I do. Don't build software for evil.

      10 votes
      1. [7]
        SourceContribute
        Link Parent
        It's strange to see ideology at work like this. Why would anyone be against just one course on this? Hell, why would they be against any other arts/humanities courses? You can't live in a machine...

        A consistent source of ire at my university among CS majors was the "ethics in technology" requirement which was basically exactly a discussion of these issues. People hated it, said it was bullshit, etc.

        It's strange to see ideology at work like this. Why would anyone be against just one course on this? Hell, why would they be against any other arts/humanities courses? You can't live in a machine without getting your creative juice from elsewhere.

        Engineers and lawyers and every other professional association have some kind of ethical guidelines that you have to at least say you agree to. Maybe this is attitude/ideology is why the ACM/IEEE code of ethics hasn't caught on and is rarely discussed.

        (not that I advocate that)
        I do. Don't build software for evil.

        Essentially why I advocate for GPL to be used everywhere and try to devote at least a bit of time here and there to open source and advocating for it.

        2 votes
        1. demifiend
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          Many American techies seem to be misanthropic assholes for various reasons. They don't want to be human, and they don't want any sort of messy human concerns impinging on their work, least of all...

          Hell, why would they be against any other arts/humanities courses? You can't live in a machine without getting your creative juice from elsewhere.

          Many American techies seem to be misanthropic assholes for various reasons. They don't want to be human, and they don't want any sort of messy human concerns impinging on their work, least of all ethics. They don't even want to eat; why do you think Soylent is still in business? If the Cybermen from Doctor Who invaded San Francisco, you'd see techies lining up to get "upgraded".

          4 votes
        2. yellow
          Link Parent
          I am pursuing a computer engineering degree and have just finished my first year. While its not the reason for everyone, I can tell you my reason for not liking humanities courses. I don't like...

          Why would anyone be against just one course on [ethics]? Hell, why would they be against any other arts/humanities courses?

          I am pursuing a computer engineering degree and have just finished my first year. While its not the reason for everyone, I can tell you my reason for not liking humanities courses. I don't like writing essays, especially personal essays, especially personal narratives. There were a few essays we were assigned in a general engineering course that focused on programming, including one essay that was about ethics. The prompt involved creating a fictional scenario based on a real ethical concern relevant to my major. When it came to the narrative aspect, I basically didn't do anything. I had pretty terrible essays overall (except for one more technical essay) and just relied on the other 90%(80%?) of the grade. TL;DR: this meme

          Maybe a solution would be some sort of less personal ethics education? Instead of "imagine an ethical dilemma and your reaction", maybe "assess the ethical implications of presented scenarios". While much more difficult, an excellent alternative would be designing normal assignments to have ethics portions. I can't think of any great examples (as it is difficult to integrate ethics seamlessly into programming assignments), but we did have an assignment on making several card and dice games that could have an added requirement of detecting addiction and warning the user?

          Basically, ethics is taught in a way that many engineer and CS students have actively avoided.

          You can't live in a machine without getting your creative juice from elsewhere.

          Also, programming can have a lot of creativity in it! Often times more than I would get out of a class on reading mythology.

          1 vote
        3. [4]
          svenkatesh
          Link Parent
          I'm not a CS student but I was a life sciences student in college - the reason I hated the Bioethics course I took was that I had to pay a lot of money (~$7K) for something that had no practical ROI.

          I'm not a CS student but I was a life sciences student in college - the reason I hated the Bioethics course I took was that I had to pay a lot of money (~$7K) for something that had no practical ROI.

          1. [4]
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            1. [3]
              svenkatesh
              Link Parent
              I come from a middle-class family, not a wealthy one. 7 thousand dollars is a lot of money.

              I come from a middle-class family, not a wealthy one.

              7 thousand dollars is a lot of money.

              1. [2]
                Whom
                Link Parent
                On a personal level, I understand that something like that is intensely frustrating or can even be a roadblock stopping others from going in the direction you did. But your hatred does seem...

                On a personal level, I understand that something like that is intensely frustrating or can even be a roadblock stopping others from going in the direction you did.

                But your hatred does seem misdirected. If you're not arguing against the practical social value of something like that course, and your problem is with the cost on the student, wouldn't it make more sense to say something like "Hey, why is the education system designed in such a way that spreading that knowledge and gaining said social value is so cost-prohibitive for lower and middle class people? Why is this so expensive that anything I learn which doesn't directly put more money in my pocket feels like a giant waste of time?"

                That isn't to assume that you're not saying exactly that, but placing the blame on the Bioethics course itself does sorta suggest it.

                3 votes
                1. svenkatesh
                  Link Parent
                  I don't disagree with anything you said. I also don't hate the idea of a Bioethics or Computer Ethics class - it's just financially a tough pill to swallow when you're paying out of pocket for school.

                  I don't disagree with anything you said. I also don't hate the idea of a Bioethics or Computer Ethics class - it's just financially a tough pill to swallow when you're paying out of pocket for school.

                  1 vote
    2. Catt
      Link Parent
      The most common reasons I hear: if we don't build it, someone else will we're building a tool, we can't control how others will use it we're not building anything illegal For the record, I sort of...

      The most common reasons I hear:

      • if we don't build it, someone else will
      • we're building a tool, we can't control how others will use it
      • we're not building anything illegal

      For the record, I sort of stand with the tool thing. A lot of "security" tech is "spy" tech. And a lot of good tools make terrible weapons.

      Edit to add: doesn't make this any less creepy or wrong though.

      3 votes
    3. xiretza
      Link Parent
      Because they get paid not to.

      Because they get paid not to.

      2 votes
  4. DonQuixote
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    This is definitely going to happen, somewhere, sometime. My concern is how we can plan for it, how it will alter our behavior, and what steps to take before it's in place. Similar to what ___...

    This is definitely going to happen, somewhere, sometime. My concern is how we can plan for it, how it will alter our behavior, and what steps to take before it's in place. Similar to what ___ tried to do in The Circle, but in a more in-depth, realistic sense.

    In Shogun, James Clavell explores the concept of the "Eightfold Fence" , where one mentally shields oneself and respects the privacy of others, even when hearing things through paper walls. Somewhere in concepts like these, I think, lie the solutions to the privacy issue.

    Another avenue might include white noise in the form of prodigious creation of obfuscating personal data. Temporarily trading cell phones between trusted individuals might accomplish this, for example. Of course, once fingerprint and voice authentication are required, this won't be possible without technical resort.

    2 votes