22 votes

Google is rolling out AMP for Gmail to let you shop and fill out forms without leaving your inbox

42 comments

  1. [24]
    weystrom
    Link
    Woo, more trackers, now in your email! Time to leave google.

    Woo, more trackers, now in your email! Time to leave google.

    25 votes
    1. [12]
      hamstergeddon
      Link Parent
      Yup. I've found Protonmail to be a good gmail replacement for a 3rd party hosted email, plus all of your email is encrypted. mxroute is good as well if you want a little more control and have your...

      Yup. I've found Protonmail to be a good gmail replacement for a 3rd party hosted email, plus all of your email is encrypted. mxroute is good as well if you want a little more control and have your own domain name. I used them for years before switching to Protonmail (more out of curiosity about proton than anything else). There's also the self-hosted route, but I personally don't want the responsibility that comes with that.

      Ultimately though I've found my need for email in general has plummeted over the years. I use it for work, but even then it's mostly just a place where meeting invites, jira notifications, etc. pile up. My personal account is basically just where email 2FA codes and bill reminders pile up.

      11 votes
      1. [11]
        word
        Link Parent
        Protonmail received 2 million funding from the EU and its transparency report doesn't look great either. I used to be a fan of protonmail, but I trust tutanota more now.

        Protonmail received 2 million funding from the EU and its transparency report doesn't look great either. I used to be a fan of protonmail, but I trust tutanota more now.

        3 votes
        1. [10]
          PopeRigby
          Link Parent
          It's listed on privacytools.io, so I trust it still. Also, what transparency report?

          It's listed on privacytools.io, so I trust it still. Also, what transparency report?

          1. [9]
            word
            Link Parent
            https://protonmail.com/blog/transparency-report/ Now compare their compliance rate (99% in 2018, 336/338 requests) to that of tutanota (19%, 24/127 requests)...

            https://protonmail.com/blog/transparency-report/

            Now compare their compliance rate (99% in 2018, 336/338 requests) to that of tutanota (19%, 24/127 requests)

            https://tutanota.com/blog/posts/transparency-report/

            Keep in mind that one request doesn't have to be limited to data about just one user.

            2 votes
            1. [8]
              PopeRigby
              Link Parent
              I don't really see the problem with the transparency report. They're required by law to comply with valid requests, right?

              I don't really see the problem with the transparency report. They're required by law to comply with valid requests, right?

              1 vote
              1. [7]
                word
                Link Parent
                To you as a user it's irrelevant whether the problem lies with the company itself or with the laws of the country it's based in. As a privacy respecting company, protonmail has chosen to be...

                To you as a user it's irrelevant whether the problem lies with the company itself or with the laws of the country it's based in. As a privacy respecting company, protonmail has chosen to be subject to Swiss legislature where they apparently have little to no means to reject handing over user data. Why, as a privacy respecting company, would they make that choice? Because Switzerland still has a nice ring to it due to its history of being neutral during the World Wars and granting people (rich war criminals) privacy with their banking secret. Being Swiss is simply a means for protonmail to market themselves while disregarding Switzerland's actual privacy laws.

                1 vote
                1. [6]
                  PopeRigby
                  Link Parent
                  But Tutanata is based in Germany. How is that better?

                  But Tutanata is based in Germany. How is that better?

                  4 votes
                  1. [5]
                    word
                    Link Parent
                    You're asking me to prove that tutanota is (100%) trustworthy. I can't. Neither can tutanota with any reasonable effort. I don't think that in practice German laws make it so incredibly easy to...

                    You're asking me to prove that tutanota is (100%) trustworthy. I can't. Neither can tutanota with any reasonable effort.

                    I don't think that in practice German laws make it so incredibly easy to get user data and so incredibly hard for companies like e-mail providers to contest those requests, as tutanota's report shows. So tutanota doesn't have the same red flag as protonmail.

                    Tutanota has a much better warrant canary than protonmail ever had, so that's another lack of a red flag in comparison.

                    Tutanota doesn't force you to give up your phone number or "back up" e-mail in the sign up process, which is another red/pink(?) flag less, at least it's one annoyance less and one thing less the service knows about you. Last time I checked, protonmail had all the temp e-mail providers blacklisted for this step. I can understand why you would want to make back up e-mails mandatory for average users. I have no sympathy for blacklisting throwaway options for all those who are clearly uncomfortable with linking their protonmail to a mainstream e-mail account. If you use something like 10minutemail to avoid this linking, you clearly know what you're doing and you clearly care enough to take an extra step for your privacy. I have no sympathy for protonmail patronizing all those people.

                    Still, can you trust tutanota? Think of it like this. Are there major red flags? Yes -> Get out of there. No -> You may proceed with caution. That's the same reasoning for why I use startpage and Qwant over DuckDuckGo.

                    1 vote
                    1. [3]
                      Comment deleted by author
                      Link Parent
                      1. [2]
                        word
                        Link Parent
                        It's possible that the captcha option shows up for some people but not for others. It's very strange. There was a reddit thread about that very issue with people like you chiming in and confirming...

                        It's possible that the captcha option shows up for some people but not for others. It's very strange. There was a reddit thread about that very issue with people like you chiming in and confirming that it works for them, and the OP and others attesting that in fact it doesn't work. For me it hasn't given me the option for a long time now. Who knows how protonmail decides who is worthy of captchas and who isn't. I don't like that there are any cases where they don't offer the option to sign up without linking another e-mail, your phone number, or your payment info.

                        1. [2]
                          Comment deleted by author
                          Link Parent
                          1. word
                            Link Parent
                            So I tried to sign up a few times now and it really gives me the option to complete a captcha occasionally. So it doesn't look like it's a user error since none of my browser settings changed....

                            So I tried to sign up a few times now and it really gives me the option to complete a captcha occasionally. So it doesn't look like it's a user error since none of my browser settings changed. What's bad is that you have to fill out the sign up form again for another chance to get a captcha. Worth it for a service that Swiss and foreign authorities take such great interest in?

                    2. [2]
                      PopeRigby
                      Link Parent
                      Well...lot's of experts trust them, so I'll trust them too. It's really exhausting for me to be constantly worried out about who's trustworthy.

                      Well...lot's of experts trust them, so I'll trust them too. It's really exhausting for me to be constantly worried out about who's trustworthy.

                      1 vote
                      1. word
                        Link Parent
                        You mean the privacytools.io experts who also buy into the DuckDuckGo meme? Ok. I mean it's a starting point and an ok overview of services which claim to be privacy friendly, but that's about it.

                        You mean the privacytools.io experts who also buy into the DuckDuckGo meme? Ok. I mean it's a starting point and an ok overview of services which claim to be privacy friendly, but that's about it.

    2. word
      Link Parent
      Friendly reminder that DuckDuckGo's founder Gabriel Weinberg sold a dead social network he owned (read as user data) to a shady bidder with a high offer, USD 10 million....

      Friendly reminder that DuckDuckGo's founder Gabriel Weinberg sold a dead social network he owned (read as user data) to a shady bidder with a high offer, USD 10 million.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_Database

      DuckDuckGo is also partnered with Yahoo, Bing for advertisement and hosted on Amazon servers.

      5 votes
    3. [9]
      nothis
      Link Parent
      Seriously. I joined gmail many, many years ago when google seemed much more harmless to me and now I'm kinda stuck. Like, this is my official email now, which is hard to escape. Is there any...

      Time to leave google.

      Seriously. I joined gmail many, many years ago when google seemed much more harmless to me and now I'm kinda stuck. Like, this is my official email now, which is hard to escape.

      Is there any alternative that has reasonable storage space for attachments and such and a good web interface? I'm also at a point where I see the value of paying for services that are so generously offered for "free" by companies like google.

      4 votes
      1. Adys
        Link Parent
        Ok, first of all, DO NOT host your own email. /cc @a_wild_swarm_appears -- seriously, please don't advise people to do that. As an engineer who has all the required skills to host my own email, I...

        Ok, first of all, DO NOT host your own email. /cc @a_wild_swarm_appears -- seriously, please don't advise people to do that.

        As an engineer who has all the required skills to host my own email, I still would not do that. Email is complex, and it's a critical piece of your life. It's kinda like telling people to represent themselves in court. Or cut their own hair.
        By all means, you want to learn, then go ahead and host an email, that you don't actively use, yourself. But do NOT host your own official email yourself. Please.

        Second, if you wish to transition out of an @gmail.com address, your first step is to register your own domain and get your own email.

        1. Go to Gandi (or any other registrar of your choice) to buy a domain name you like. Make it something professional you'll use for a long time. You can't go wrong with an email such as firstname@yourlastname.net.
        2. Gandi has preconfigured email services. Once you have a domain name, you can create "forwarding addresses", and tell it to forward anything coming in to firstname@yourlastname.net to example@gmail.com.
        3. You're done for now. Make sure your domain is auto-renewing on an active card so you don't end up losing it accidentally.

        Your long term goal may be to stop using gmail altogether, but this is a stepping stone. It'll let you start receiving emails at your new address without having to change anything. I've been through that process and all I wished was that I'd done it earlier. I ended up switching to GSuite afterwards, because I actually like the gmail UI (but didn't want to remain on an @gmail.com, didn't want to keep getting ads and what not, and wanted support).

        5 votes
      2. [2]
        a_wild_swarm_appears
        Link Parent
        How's your broadband? If you have fiber you could just bite the bullet and buy a decent server, your own domain name and set up your calendar, email, etc... on your own machine at home. I don't...

        How's your broadband? If you have fiber you could just bite the bullet and buy a decent server, your own domain name and set up your calendar, email, etc... on your own machine at home. I don't see any reason not to do that these days. In fact I think I'll look into doing that myself, I'm already using a google email with my own domain, so from everyone elses perspective nothing would change.

        3 votes
        1. UniquelyGeneric
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          Many ISPs only allow port 25 on a static IP if you have a business account. Otherwise you might be in a goofy situation where you can only send email but not receive. While there are certainly...

          Many ISPs only allow port 25 on a static IP if you have a business account. Otherwise you might be in a goofy situation where you can only send email but not receive. While there are certainly ways to set up a proper POP/IMAP server, it’s unfortunately not the most easy solution and for many they will be forced to trust a corporation managing their email.

          5 votes
      3. Weldawadyathink
        Link Parent
        I use mainfence. I use my own domain, so I can switch providers easily. It has a very nice web UI. It also has documents, calendar, and contacts storage along with all the usual protocols like...

        I use mainfence. I use my own domain, so I can switch providers easily. It has a very nice web UI. It also has documents, calendar, and contacts storage along with all the usual protocols like imap, smtp, and webdav. I think it was around $10/year for custom domain support

        2 votes
      4. [3]
        Deimos
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I'm using FastMail for Tildes emails. It's $30/year if you don't want to use your own domain and $50/year if you do (in addition to the cost of the domain), and a little more expensive if you pay...

        I'm using FastMail for Tildes emails. It's $30/year if you don't want to use your own domain and $50/year if you do (in addition to the cost of the domain), and a little more expensive if you pay monthly. Using your own domain is a good idea since if you ever need to switch providers again, you can keep the same email address, which makes it a lot less painful.

        I have no real complaints with FastMail so far, my experience with it has been very good. The web interface is pretty good (and probably faster than the new Gmail version). The Android app isn't exceptional, but it does the job.

        1 vote
        1. [2]
          heady
          Link Parent
          Some would be concerned that Fastmail as an Australian company is legally required to maintain a backdoor in its encryption.

          Some would be concerned that Fastmail as an Australian company is legally required to maintain a backdoor in its encryption.

          2 votes
          1. Deimos
            Link Parent
            It doesn't affect Fastmail, because they're already able to decrypt everything: https://fastmail.blog/2018/12/21/advocating-for-privacy-aabill-australia/ Fastmail was never the right choice for...

            It doesn't affect Fastmail, because they're already able to decrypt everything: https://fastmail.blog/2018/12/21/advocating-for-privacy-aabill-australia/

            Fastmail was never the right choice for someone looking for a fully end-to-end encrypted service, and that hasn't changed.

            3 votes
      5. crdpa
        Link Parent
        I'm slowly getting out of gmail. Got tutanota and protonmail accounts for email and a woelkli account for cloud storage, contacts and calendar. I can already kill my account, but i need to...

        I'm slowly getting out of gmail. Got tutanota and protonmail accounts for email and a woelkli account for cloud storage, contacts and calendar.

        I can already kill my account, but i need to download somethings from there first. Unfortunately i can't find a free (and privacy focused) cloud service with 5gb+ of storage.

        I think disroot is the best choice regarding space.

    4. Guyon
      Link Parent
      Friendly reminder that while not free, LavaBit is back.

      Friendly reminder that while not free, LavaBit is back.

  2. [16]
    rickdg
    Link
    Probably will go down in history as an example of what happens when open standards can't get their shit together. HTML in e-mails is so broken that even huge corporations have to resort to just...

    Probably will go down in history as an example of what happens when open standards can't get their shit together. HTML in e-mails is so broken that even huge corporations have to resort to just sending you an image for you to scroll through.

    15 votes
    1. [9]
      random324
      Link Parent
      This is the wrong take. Why does email need to be more complicated than it currently is? It works fine and it is simple to allow its federated architecture. This is just Google trying to take over...

      This is the wrong take. Why does email need to be more complicated than it currently is? It works fine and it is simple to allow its federated architecture.

      This is just Google trying to take over the open web with a proprietary standard replacing http.

      4 votes
      1. [8]
        Wes
        Link Parent
        Have you ever tried to design an html email before?

        It works fine

        Have you ever tried to design an html email before?

        6 votes
        1. random324
          Link Parent
          No and I don't plan to. In fact, if it weren't for the hassle, I would've disabled HTML emails completely. http://archive.birdhouse.org/etc/evilmail.html

          No and I don't plan to. In fact, if it weren't for the hassle, I would've disabled HTML emails completely.

          http://archive.birdhouse.org/etc/evilmail.html

          4 votes
        2. [6]
          crdpa
          Link Parent
          I think that's the point. It shouldn't exist. E-mail is for sending messages. Text. That's it. If you want something more, attach it.

          I think that's the point. It shouldn't exist.

          E-mail is for sending messages. Text. That's it. If you want something more, attach it.

          2 votes
          1. [4]
            Wes
            Link Parent
            That's a bit like arguing that the web was designed merely for sharing documents! It might be true, but platforms like Tildes couldn't exist today without innovation.

            That's a bit like arguing that the web was designed merely for sharing documents! It might be true, but platforms like Tildes couldn't exist today without innovation.

            5 votes
            1. [2]
              Cosmos
              Link Parent
              Email isn't holding up any innovation. It's ok to leave it as is. Just look at the name. Electronic mail. All it needs to do is send letters. Not everything needs to get more complicated. Some...

              Email isn't holding up any innovation. It's ok to leave it as is. Just look at the name. Electronic mail. All it needs to do is send letters. Not everything needs to get more complicated. Some things are better when kept simple.

              1 vote
              1. DrStone
                Link Parent
                Appealing to the roots of physical mail doesn't change anything here; physical mail is almost all formatted. Everything from a basic personal letter to a business marketing flyer to magazines and...

                Appealing to the roots of physical mail doesn't change anything here; physical mail is almost all formatted. Everything from a basic personal letter to a business marketing flyer to magazines and catalogs, there's usually at least some formatting or flourish applied beyond basic plain-text. Putting aside the subset of poorly designed headache-inducing marketing, formatting can provide a vast improvement to legibility and clarity.

                4 votes
            2. crdpa
              Link Parent
              Not at all. Innovation is good. Html e-mail is not. Bloating things is not innovation. It's just sending code through e-mail.

              Not at all. Innovation is good. Html e-mail is not. Bloating things is not innovation. It's just sending code through e-mail.

          2. [2]
            Comment deleted by author
            Link Parent
            1. crdpa
              Link Parent
              I prefer a well formatted document too, but something simpler would be better. Something like markdown would solve the readability and compatibility issues. Html emails when opened in a pure text...

              I prefer a well formatted document too, but something simpler would be better. Something like markdown would solve the readability and compatibility issues.

              Html emails when opened in a pure text environment is hell.

    2. [6]
      balooga
      Link Parent
      It blows my mind that the web platform has grown by leaps and bounds over the past decade, but HTML e-mail has done effectively nothing. How is it still so bad?

      It blows my mind that the web platform has grown by leaps and bounds over the past decade, but HTML e-mail has done effectively nothing. How is it still so bad?

      3 votes
      1. [5]
        Akir
        Link Parent
        In a word? Outlook. It's very common and it has the absolute worst HTML support. It's basically the lowest common denominator for email that everyone designs around. It's basically IE6 for email.

        In a word? Outlook.

        It's very common and it has the absolute worst HTML support. It's basically the lowest common denominator for email that everyone designs around. It's basically IE6 for email.

        17 votes
        1. [2]
          balooga
          Link Parent
          I'd be first in line to rail against IE but in the last couple years Microsoft's attempt to catch up with the rest of the industry (Edge) was commendable. I'm baffled and annoyed by their decision...

          I'd be first in line to rail against IE but in the last couple years Microsoft's attempt to catch up with the rest of the industry (Edge) was commendable. I'm baffled and annoyed by their decision to scrap all that engine development work and just use Chromium now. Part of me was hopeful that some of that forward-thinking would spill over into Outlook, but now it looks like they're just throwing in the towel.

          On the other hand, maybe they'll pull the same kind of brain transplant with Outlook, and plug in some existing engine to replace the current one. I'm not even sure what options are currently available to do something like that for email. Personally I use Thunderbird, but it would be absurd for Microsoft to adopt its engine, Gecko, for Outlook if they weren't going to use it for Edge too. (As much as I would love to see a big player throw some weight behind Mozilla instead of further empowering Google.)

          8 votes
          1. Kraetos
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Simple: Electron. When they bought GitHub they got Electron with it, at which point there were only two options: Electron goes EdgeHTML. Edge goes Chromium. They probably tried fitting EdgeHTML...
            • Exemplary

            I'm baffled and annoyed by their decision to scrap all that engine development work and just use Chromium now.

            Simple: Electron. When they bought GitHub they got Electron with it, at which point there were only two options:

            • Electron goes EdgeHTML.
            • Edge goes Chromium.

            They probably tried fitting EdgeHTML into Electron but unless it would have been a totally seamless transition it just wasn't worth risking Electron, which is hugely popular. Edge is not hugely popular. The second it became clear that EdgeHTML couldn't seamlessly take over for Chromium as the engine powering Electron, EdgeHTML was dead.

            Coming soon: Electron target in Visual Studio, alongside Win32 and UWP.

            11 votes
        2. Octofox
          Link Parent
          Outlook is absolutely horrific. I haven't had to develop a html email in years but this is burned so strongly in my mind. The only way to restore any sanity while supporting outlook is to just...

          Outlook is absolutely horrific. I haven't had to develop a html email in years but this is burned so strongly in my mind. The only way to restore any sanity while supporting outlook is to just make your email a jpeg and send it that way because literally nothing else works.

          4 votes
        3. ThatFanficGuy
          Link Parent
          Even web devs are now aiming, at worst, for IE9.

          Even web devs are now aiming, at worst, for IE9.

  3. [2]
    Octofox
    Link
    This might be the thing that kills email. There will just be Gmail and outlook. The 2 probably wont even work together anymore. Part of the blame is on email for being so horribly broken for so...

    This might be the thing that kills email. There will just be Gmail and outlook. The 2 probably wont even work together anymore. Part of the blame is on email for being so horribly broken for so long and part of the blame is on all the tech companies who tried to make it more custom and proprietary instead of actually fixing the standard.

    6 votes
    1. Adys
      Link Parent
      Ah yes, email, a feature used by billions of people, will be killed by a backwards-compatible addition to gmail which might get used by some websites. Be realistic please.

      Ah yes, email, a feature used by billions of people, will be killed by a backwards-compatible addition to gmail which might get used by some websites.

      Be realistic please.

      4 votes