29 votes

Facebook announces a ban on praise, support and representation of white nationalism and separatism on Facebook and Instagram

27 comments

  1. [3]
    sublime_aenima
    Link
    That’s awesome that they are going to start showing resources to counter the hate when people search for terms associated with white supremacy. Hopefully similar will catch on for other social...

    That’s awesome that they are going to start showing resources to counter the hate when people search for terms associated with white supremacy. Hopefully similar will catch on for other social media sites.

    16 votes
    1. [2]
      Cosmos
      Link Parent
      Not holding my breath for reddit.

      Not holding my breath for reddit.

      16 votes
      1. stephen
        Link Parent
        I am not reddit inc.'s #1 fan - probably not even in the top 100. However, I have to hope that with such a substantial precedent being set, reddit is up to the task. In fact, if reddit admins make...

        I am not reddit inc.'s #1 fan - probably not even in the top 100. However, I have to hope that with such a substantial precedent being set, reddit is up to the task. In fact, if reddit admins make this official, reddit is the best equipped of any of the major platforms to substantially overcome its white nationalist population. Reddit's mods are "literally Hitler" as the joke goes but they are also well organized.

        5 votes
  2. [9]
    FZeroRacer
    Link
    It's about damn time. I'm not going to praise Facebook for this action since anyone that's ever been a moderator understands the importance of actually actually moderating their platform. I've...

    It's about damn time. I'm not going to praise Facebook for this action since anyone that's ever been a moderator understands the importance of actually actually moderating their platform.

    I've been reading the Hacker News thread on this as well. The amount of disingenuous arguments being made and general FUD being spread is disappointing, but not surprising. That's one of the reasons why I came over to Tildes in the first place.

    13 votes
    1. [2]
      Guyon
      Link Parent
      HN Thread for anyone else who was going to dig it up: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19503094

      HN Thread for anyone else who was going to dig it up: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19503094

      2 votes
      1. Luna
        Link Parent
        Wow, I did not expect so many just curious folks defending white nationalists. colordrops' response to this comment really irks me. In response to the fact that anyone can start their own social...

        Wow, I did not expect so many just curious folks defending white nationalists. colordrops' response to this comment really irks me. In response to the fact that anyone can start their own social media site, he says:

        That wouldn't be a problem if these organizations hadn't captured 95% of the discourse. There is nothing in the definition of censorship that requires it to be done by the government.

        What he really means is this:

        I am entitled to be able to say whatever I want on Facebook. Even though less than 1% of people on Facebook will ever friend me or join the groups I'm in, I deserve to be able to shout into the void in the hopes that some people will hear my message of hate.

        Or, to rephrase that further:

        I know I can start my own newspaper if the NYTimes refuses to print my opinion piece. But the NYTimes shouldn't be allowed to say no to my shitty opinions, they're the largest newspaper in the US, therefore they don't have the right to not associate themselves with me!

        The fact is that anyone can spin up their own Mastodon instance by self-hosting or through an EC2 instance. And unlike the "just start your own newspaper if you can't get printed in the one you want" situation before the internet, this requires next to no capital expenditures to startup and no staff to operate unless you start to get big. It is easier than ever to create your own Facebook-but-for-Nazis and have a reach greater than any local newspaper, but these idiots just have to be able to shout in everyone's face, otherwise it's censorship.

        You are allowed to say what you want in the US, but you are not entitled to the platform of your choice, nor does any other government have to allow their citizens to access your platform.

        If anyone wants to respond to colordrops and paraphrase my post, feel free.

        3 votes
    2. [6]
      annadane
      Link Parent
      I really want to like HN but their comments are far too argumentative and some people are just too far afield etc. Absolutely everything is a contentious point there.

      I really want to like HN but their comments are far too argumentative and some people are just too far afield etc. Absolutely everything is a contentious point there.

      7 votes
      1. tildez
        Link Parent
        So many pedantic know-it-alls that just can’t wait to tell people, despite being experts on the topic, why they are so obviously wrong. It’s obnoxious.

        So many pedantic know-it-alls that just can’t wait to tell people, despite being experts on the topic, why they are so obviously wrong.

        It’s obnoxious.

        5 votes
      2. [3]
        mftrhu
        Link Parent
        Same. I avoid political threads on there like the plague, because the comments in those are absolutely ridiculous - it feels even worse than Reddit, at times. "The Daily Stormer is just a...

        Same. I avoid political threads on there like the plague, because the comments in those are absolutely ridiculous - it feels even worse than Reddit, at times. "The Daily Stormer is just a political website, should political sites really be banned for having wrong think? [...] I'd rather find my son reading The Daily Stormer than sex ed when he is 10"

        Medicine, too. "My friend has depression, she had it for a long time" - cue three people chiming in and being upvoted for "put her on a zero-carb diet", and I always end up headdesking and backing out of the thread when I see shit like that.

        4 votes
        1. [2]
          alyaza
          Link Parent
          i find this the weirdest thing about the broader tech community to me, especially on places like reddit and HN. there's really not a lot to me that would suggest it should be a breeding ground for...

          Same. I avoid political threads on there like the plague, because the comments in those are absolutely ridiculous - it feels even worse than Reddit, at times. "The Daily Stormer is just a political website, should political sites really be banned for having wrong think? [...] I'd rather find my son reading The Daily Stormer than sex ed when he is 10"

          i find this the weirdest thing about the broader tech community to me, especially on places like reddit and HN. there's really not a lot to me that would suggest it should be a breeding ground for the bizarre, crypto-reactionary libertarianism that tends to actually dominate such spaces in practice and also seems to be shockingly common among silicon valley CEOs, other than that those people tend to be better off and white--but that unto itself usually doesn't create people of that particular pathology, obviously.

          3 votes
          1. mftrhu
            Link Parent
            I actually don't find it that weird, not on HN at least - it's run by a start-up incubator, it's very focused on economic success, and the people who gravitate there tend to be of the "temporarily...

            there's really not a lot to me that would suggest it should be a breeding ground for the bizarre, crypto-reactionary libertarianism that tends to actually dominate such spaces in practice and also seems to be shockingly common among silicon valley CEOs,

            I actually don't find it that weird, not on HN at least - it's run by a start-up incubator, it's very focused on economic success, and the people who gravitate there tend to be of the "temporarily embarrassed billionaire" and/or rabidly capitalistic, "pull yourself by your bootstraps" sort.

            2 votes
      3. corvidzz
        Link Parent
        Absolutely. There's some good with HN -- for instance, I've found many a good book there -- but it's exhausting to sift through the debate club just to find the occasional decent comment.

        Absolutely. There's some good with HN -- for instance, I've found many a good book there -- but it's exhausting to sift through the debate club just to find the occasional decent comment.

        2 votes
  3. [11]
    nsz
    Link
    And let the language game of cat and mouse begin. It's a good thing they are taking the stance, but I can't help but think it's going to be difficult to decode the language and symbols that will...

    And let the language game of cat and mouse begin.

    It's a good thing they are taking the stance, but I can't help but think it's going to be difficult to decode the language and symbols that will inevitably evolve to hid from the system used to flag posts.

    8 votes
    1. [6]
      alyaza
      Link Parent
      well, this is already a problem (there are pretty much no white nationalists or fascists who are about to don a swastika or other obvious fascist/neo-nazi/racist symbol unless it's obfuscated...

      well, this is already a problem (there are pretty much no white nationalists or fascists who are about to don a swastika or other obvious fascist/neo-nazi/racist symbol unless it's obfuscated sufficiently that nobody will recognize it on first glance, unless they genuinely don't care about blending in), so i mean... it's probably not going to make it any worse than it already is?

      7 votes
      1. [5]
        nsz
        Link Parent
        Yeah you're right of course, I recently learned the ok hand gesture and emoji were a sign for white nationalists. I had no idea, and it's kind of ruined it for me. But now that it's known a bot or...

        Yeah you're right of course, I recently learned the ok hand gesture and emoji were a sign for white nationalists. I had no idea, and it's kind of ruined it for me. But now that it's known a bot or whatever can be trained to recognise and flag it, this will inevitably lead to something more subtle taking it's place.

        But now that I think about it, just having it a policy will do something to stop the casual posts which end up being so pernicious for contributing to normalising it.

        2 votes
        1. [4]
          Cosmos
          Link Parent
          They're not.
          1 vote
          1. [3]
            cfabbro
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Things change. What may have started as a hoax, is far from it now. It's still done to "troll" but also self-identify. Truth behind accused gunman’s hand symbol in court

            May 1, 2017

            Things change. What may have started as a hoax, is far from it now. It's still done to "troll" but also self-identify.
            Truth behind accused gunman’s hand symbol in court

            6 votes
            1. [2]
              Comment deleted by author
              Link Parent
              1. Algernon_Asimov
                Link Parent
                At some point, the joke became reality. Sure, some edge-lords think it's funny to co-opt an existing sign and pretend it's a racist sign to troll the bleeding-heart progressives... but some...

                At some point, the joke became reality. Sure, some edge-lords think it's funny to co-opt an existing sign and pretend it's a racist sign to troll the bleeding-heart progressives... but some racists are now using the sign sincerely and without irony.

                That's the problem with being ironically racist - after the symbol gets passed on through a few "generations", the message gets twisted. Ever heard of the game "Chinese Whispers" or "Telephone"? It's like that.

                13 votes
            2. Cosmos
              Link Parent
              Don't think anything has changed since then.

              Updated: 9/5/18

              Don't think anything has changed since then.

    2. [4]
      json
      Link Parent
      Of course. Something seemingly benign like a pin wheel could be adopted as a symbol with how it makes a similar shape to a swastika, and wearing a lapel pin of a pinwheel would be a nod to others...

      Of course.
      Something seemingly benign like a pin wheel could be adopted as a symbol with how it makes a similar shape to a swastika, and wearing a lapel pin of a pinwheel would be a nod to others that know.

      1 vote
      1. [3]
        babypuncher
        Link Parent
        The more vague and unrelated to racism they have to make their language to avoid the filters, the less effective they will be in spreading hateful messaging.

        The more vague and unrelated to racism they have to make their language to avoid the filters, the less effective they will be in spreading hateful messaging.

        8 votes
        1. [2]
          knocklessmonster
          Link Parent
          It could make them insanely effective. A dude like Varg Vikiernes (look him up, basically, dudes a white nationalist). He's just talking about his dog killing a cat, or is he? Also check out his...

          It could make them insanely effective. A dude like Varg Vikiernes (look him up, basically, dudes a white nationalist). He's just talking about his dog killing a cat, or is he? Also check out his board game (it's a totally okay music journalism site).

          Derek Black, the son of the man who founded Stormfront (he's reformed, not a racist anymore, this interview was to plug his book about it) explained that that organization's goal was to get the sort of person who says "I'm not racist, but..." and then says some racist stuff.

          While I think it's a good thing, it could make it a bit harder to track and stop the spread of these ideas because if one is creative enough, you could spin a story of white nationalism without using the word "white." All you have to do is catch the attention of somebody who is on the fence, who are usually the types who go for this stuff.

          6 votes
          1. alyaza
            Link Parent
            i don't think this really follows for the simple reason that they can already do this with or without filtering or bans. white nationalists aren't stupid, and they'll use what works, just like...

            It could make them insanely effective.

            i don't think this really follows for the simple reason that they can already do this with or without filtering or bans. white nationalists aren't stupid, and they'll use what works, just like other people do. there's a case to be made that they already do this, in fact: 'white nationalist' and now 'white identitarian' play better than 'neonazi' or 'skinhead' with the public. it hasn't necessarily worked in their favor though, to be honest.

            5 votes
  4. [3]
    pard68
    Link
    I saw this on HN earlier. My thoughts on the matter: Even white nationalists are entitled to their views and the right to express them. But, as of right now, Facebook has a right to moderate the...

    I saw this on HN earlier. My thoughts on the matter:

    1. Even white nationalists are entitled to their views and the right to express them. But, as of right now, Facebook has a right to moderate the content on their site as well. So I have no problem with this. WNs can move to another platform, and there are those which will have them. WNs can create their own platform and congregate their as well.

    2. I wonder how long until the US Federal government or US Courts declare social media platforms a de facto public place. Facebook et al have spent so much time allowing themselves to be the outlet of free speech --by not moderating the content more-- that they are cornering themselves. Inevitably some lawsuit or some savvy member of Congress will declare these platforms to be as good as the public square and thus no longer able to remove this type of content.

    3. Facebook is horribly US-centric. I wonder how many nation specific hate groups are allowed to thrive on Facebook because they are not on the radar of Silicon Valley.

    7 votes
    1. [2]
      Deimos
      Link Parent
      Facebook is having some really awful effects in other countries, and it's mostly unmoderated. Here are two articles I have handy, but there are a lot more examples out there: Why Facebook is...

      I wonder how many nation specific hate groups are allowed to thrive on Facebook because they are not on the radar of Silicon Valley.

      Facebook is having some really awful effects in other countries, and it's mostly unmoderated. Here are two articles I have handy, but there are a lot more examples out there:

      9 votes
      1. pard68
        Link Parent
        Thanks for the sources, I will add these to my reading list! This is what I suspected. I know that in Western news white nationalist groups get a lot of press, but my understanding is Western...

        Thanks for the sources, I will add these to my reading list! This is what I suspected. I know that in Western news white nationalist groups get a lot of press, but my understanding is Western white nationalist groups are pretty tame compared to what a lot of the non-western world experiences. White nationalists, by and large, are just a bunch of hate filled, but otherwise spineless, individuals.

        2 votes
  5. Autoxidation
    Link
    I am very curious if they will clamp down on Confederate flag waving, given it's close ties with racism.

    I am very curious if they will clamp down on Confederate flag waving, given it's close ties with racism.

    3 votes