I don't know... but Deimos has a well known history of detecting (and calling out) vote manipulation and spam/brigading/bot networks on reddit... so there is that.
How is Tildes going to deal in a situation like this?
I don't know... but Deimos has a well known history of detecting (and calling out) vote manipulation and spam/brigading/bot networks on reddit... so there is that.
My title at reddit for quite a while was "Anti-Evil Engineer" - here's an archived version of the old Team page showing it. I spent a lot of my time there working on detecting and preventing...
Exemplary
My title at reddit for quite a while was "Anti-Evil Engineer" - here's an archived version of the old Team page showing it. I spent a lot of my time there working on detecting and preventing vote-manipulation, spam, etc. I can't explain much about it in detail (I'm not allowed to talk about internal, non-public info), but it's something that I've done a lot of work on.
I looked at your profile and, wow. I didn't realize that you created AutoModerator. Now I'm curious: why isn't there an AutoModerator for Tildes, and what were the benefits and drawbacks of...
I looked at your profile and, wow. I didn't realize that you created AutoModerator. Now I'm curious: why isn't there an AutoModerator for Tildes, and what were the benefits and drawbacks of creating AutoModerator in the first place?
Tildes isn't nearly active enough to need anything like AutoModerator yet. Maybe we'll have something comparable eventually, but that probably won't be needed for a really long time. I think the...
Tildes isn't nearly active enough to need anything like AutoModerator yet. Maybe we'll have something comparable eventually, but that probably won't be needed for a really long time.
I think the main benefit of creating AutoModerator was... making reddit moderation even feasible. Managing large subreddits was almost impossible before AutoMod (and other third-party bots/tools), and I don't know if reddit could have reached its current size and activity level without collapsing under its own weight without something like it. It's still the only way to do so many extremely basic moderation tasks like... banning a domain, enforcing a title format, auto-removing posts when they get a lot of reports, and so on.
As for drawbacks, I think the biggest issue is that it's too easy for mods to set up rules that remove too much, forget about them, and never review or correct what they're removing. For example, lots of subreddits automatically remove everything posted by new users or ones with low karma. That's aimed at spammers, ban evaders, and trolls, and is mostly a reasonable thing to do. However, they should really be reviewing everything that gets removed by those rules, and approving things that shouldn't have been caught. But a lot of subreddits don't do that at all, and just make it impossible for legitimate new users to participate, which isn't good.
Another fun one I remember off the top of my head: When Deimorz pulled an "Iron fist of God" level smackdown on TotalBiscuit (RIP) for brigading reddit using twitter, immediately after TB said...
And while I can't really link anything related to it, because the subreddit is now defunct, Deimorz was also pretty active on /r/reportthespammers back in the day (before he was an admin)... as was I.
That post was pretty much the beginning of my heavy involvement in reddit. I wasn't a mod or anything at that point (you can see that the post ends with asking the mods to do something about it),...
That post was pretty much the beginning of my heavy involvement in reddit. I wasn't a mod or anything at that point (you can see that the post ends with asking the mods to do something about it), but it got so much attention (it was the #1 post on the whole site that day) that I ended up becoming a mod of /r/gaming shortly after, which led to creating AutoModerator to help with my mod work, starting /r/Games, getting hired at reddit, and everything else.
Here’s some links from , but they don’t only focus on spam/ manipulation. There’s probably more that don’t mention him by name and therefore aren’t in the search, I know of at least one where...
Here’s some links from , but they don’t only focus on spam/ manipulation. There’s probably more that don’t mention him by name and therefore aren’t in the search, I know of at least one where someone (maybe even me but I don’t remember that long ago
) posted him calling out one of my accounts for trolling conspiracy about automod integrating into the site so reddit could filter comments they didn’t like that doesn’t show up in that search.
"By the way, gutsy move with the vote-cheating in an admin post. Good luck with your appeal." Hah... I had never seen that particular one before, but it genuinely made me laugh. p.s. Neat...
Hah... I had never seen that particular one before, but it genuinely made me laugh.
p.s. Neat subreddit... I had never heard of it before. Now I'm going to have to go back through it and see what other fun admin interactions I missed over they years. Although the last submission, "spez smackdown on /r/science mods", is kinda BS IMO, since they had very legitimate gripes which spez completely ignored and just deflected from in his reply. I would hardly call that a "smackdown"...
A “big hammer” solution Tildes has is Deimos isn’t afraid to turn the site back to invite-only. Its something that happens every time there is a mass exodus from reddit. Lock down the site and let...
A “big hammer” solution Tildes has is Deimos isn’t afraid to turn the site back to invite-only. Its something that happens every time there is a mass exodus from reddit. Lock down the site and let new users trickle in over time to make sure it doesn’t get flooded with users that exceeds the moderation capabilities. I image if bot accounts became a big problem he’d do something like that again. It’s not a perfect or easy solution and it still has loopholes, but it’s a solution that reddit would never try because they are a company there to make $$, and tildes is a project to make a community
While there is no concrete plans yet regarding them AFAIK, one of the things we have talked about rather extensively behind the scenes is bots on Tildes. And one of the ideas bandied around was...
I image if bot accounts became a big problem he’d do something like that again.
While there is no concrete plans yet regarding them AFAIK, one of the things we have talked about rather extensively behind the scenes is bots on Tildes. And one of the ideas bandied around was requiring them to register as bot accounts (distinct from normal users accounts), which would then be clearly marked for users to see and also easily filter out (unlike on reddit where you have to report then block each individual one). These bot accounts could also have limited permissions compared to normal users (e.g. not allowed to vote, only allowed to aside comment, etc). And this rule would also then allow Deimos the freedom to immediately ban any bot caught operating through regular accounts (i.e. spammers).
I would love bot accounts. Reddit has sadly done very little to support automated applications interacting with their platform, a bot-type account that can't vote and can't be voted on would...
I would love bot accounts. Reddit has sadly done very little to support automated applications interacting with their platform, a bot-type account that can't vote and can't be voted on would likely help a lot to promote tildes as an alternative to reddit.
Yeah, bots get a lot of shit on reddit, but people often forget that Automoderator was originally a bot before Deimos was hired by reddit and integrated it into the site for them. And IMO the only...
Yeah, bots get a lot of shit on reddit, but people often forget that Automoderator was originally a bot before Deimos was hired by reddit and integrated it into the site for them. And IMO the only reason bots really suck on reddit is because reddit has done a really poor job of managing them properly and not given users, mods and bot authors enough options related to them.
I think with proper containment, encouragement and (more importantly) well thought out features, they could really be a huge asset here... and ones that prove themselves really useful could even be officially "adopted" or even integrated into Tildes like Automod was on reddit.
I think one would have to be more careful than with automod; even after integration it always felt more like a bot to bandaid over issues with the Reddit UI than an actual improvement. If some...
I think one would have to be more careful than with automod; even after integration it always felt more like a bot to bandaid over issues with the Reddit UI than an actual improvement.
If some functionality of a bot becomes indisposable or irreplacable, it should be fully integrated as a function within Tildes, not continue operating as a bot.
To be fair to Automod, it was basically designed as a bandaid to begin with, and it's not like Deimos was really allowed to keep working on it much after integrating it either AFAIK. IIRC he was...
To be fair to Automod, it was basically designed as a bandaid to begin with, and it's not like Deimos was really allowed to keep working on it much after integrating it either AFAIK. IIRC he was assigned to other roles shortly after "finishing" it, because Reddit Inc. doesn't value moderators, moderation or moderation tools at all. And even when he and krispykrackers were eventually assigned to the "modsupport" team together after the blackout... after the outrage died down they were quietly reassigned back to other roles before anything could really be accomplished in terms of mod tools development. :/
If some functionality of a bot becomes indisposable or irreplacable, it should be fully integrated as a function within Tildes, not continue operating as a bot.
100% agree there. Bots are a great way for people who don't know fullstack development to still help with the site, since writing bots with a good API available is trivial. But if someone does create one that proves indispensable, its functionality should absolutely be integrated IMO.
Okay. Let's differentiate between bots that act as moderation tools, and bots which don't. The non-moderation bots which are just there to provide links or quote text from links or provide...
bots get a lot of shit on reddit, but people often forget that Automoderator was originally a bot
Okay. Let's differentiate between bots that act as moderation tools, and bots which don't. The non-moderation bots which are just there to provide links or quote text from links or provide supposedly useful information or make silly replies are a blight on Reddit, and would similarly be a blight on Tildes. They don't add to discussion. They only create clutter.
If there's a need for an automated function on Tildes to support moderation, then build it into the site itself. There's no need for random people to create bots to clutter up Tildes discussions.
Short term I think tidles is still too small (not a criticism at all) to worry much about that. Long term, I'd love to see some ideas/strategies to combat that sort of that (although maybe that...
Short term I think tidles is still too small (not a criticism at all) to worry much about that. Long term, I'd love to see some ideas/strategies to combat that sort of that (although maybe that would be showing one's hand)
Digg embraced the seedy underbelly and made it the selling point of the site, much to anger of the userbase, which very quickly told them where to shove it and moved onto Reddit. I think reddit is...
Digg embraced the seedy underbelly and made it the selling point of the site, much to anger of the userbase, which very quickly told them where to shove it and moved onto Reddit. I think reddit is smart enough to make the exact same mistake, but I think they'll dance around and introduce it slowly so as not to kick the bees nest. In some ways they already have and who knows what they're doing behind the scenes.
Old but good video about one of Reddit problems, how it is in 2019?. How is Tildes going to deal in a situation like this?.
I don't know... but Deimos has a well known history of detecting (and calling out) vote manipulation and spam/brigading/bot networks on reddit... so there is that.
Got links? I'd like to see what that looks like.
My title at reddit for quite a while was "Anti-Evil Engineer" - here's an archived version of the old Team page showing it. I spent a lot of my time there working on detecting and preventing vote-manipulation, spam, etc. I can't explain much about it in detail (I'm not allowed to talk about internal, non-public info), but it's something that I've done a lot of work on.
I looked at your profile and, wow. I didn't realize that you created AutoModerator. Now I'm curious: why isn't there an AutoModerator for Tildes, and what were the benefits and drawbacks of creating AutoModerator in the first place?
Tildes isn't nearly active enough to need anything like AutoModerator yet. Maybe we'll have something comparable eventually, but that probably won't be needed for a really long time.
I think the main benefit of creating AutoModerator was... making reddit moderation even feasible. Managing large subreddits was almost impossible before AutoMod (and other third-party bots/tools), and I don't know if reddit could have reached its current size and activity level without collapsing under its own weight without something like it. It's still the only way to do so many extremely basic moderation tasks like... banning a domain, enforcing a title format, auto-removing posts when they get a lot of reports, and so on.
As for drawbacks, I think the biggest issue is that it's too easy for mods to set up rules that remove too much, forget about them, and never review or correct what they're removing. For example, lots of subreddits automatically remove everything posted by new users or ones with low karma. That's aimed at spammers, ban evaders, and trolls, and is mostly a reasonable thing to do. However, they should really be reviewing everything that gets removed by those rules, and approving things that shouldn't have been caught. But a lot of subreddits don't do that at all, and just make it impossible for legitimate new users to participate, which isn't good.
Ah, that's a shame. I understand the reasoning, but still. Knowing is a thing I want to do.
This is the only one I know about, but I think it's a pretty good example.
Another fun one I remember off the top of my head: When Deimorz pulled an "Iron fist of God" level smackdown on TotalBiscuit (RIP) for brigading reddit using twitter, immediately after TB said "The admins aren't going to do anything about it because it's not against the rules" on /r/subredditdrama. ;)
And while I can't really link anything related to it, because the subreddit is now defunct, Deimorz was also pretty active on /r/reportthespammers back in the day (before he was an admin)... as was I.
That post was pretty much the beginning of my heavy involvement in reddit. I wasn't a mod or anything at that point (you can see that the post ends with asking the mods to do something about it), but it got so much attention (it was the #1 post on the whole site that day) that I ended up becoming a mod of /r/gaming shortly after, which led to creating AutoModerator to help with my mod work, starting /r/Games, getting hired at reddit, and everything else.
This was another post that I made as a mod of /r/Games that's on a similar topic too: Mowing the Astroturf
Damn that was impressive
Here’s some links from , but they don’t only focus on spam/ manipulation. There’s probably more that don’t mention him by name and therefore aren’t in the search, I know of at least one where someone (maybe even me but I don’t remember that long ago
) posted him calling out one of my accounts for trolling conspiracy about automod integrating into the site so reddit could filter comments they didn’t like that doesn’t show up in that search.
"By the way, gutsy move with the vote-cheating in an admin post. Good luck with your appeal."
Hah... I had never seen that particular one before, but it genuinely made me laugh.
p.s. Neat subreddit... I had never heard of it before. Now I'm going to have to go back through it and see what other fun admin interactions I missed over they years. Although the last submission, "spez smackdown on /r/science mods", is kinda BS IMO, since they had very legitimate gripes which spez completely ignored and just deflected from in his reply. I would hardly call that a "smackdown"...
A “big hammer” solution Tildes has is Deimos isn’t afraid to turn the site back to invite-only. Its something that happens every time there is a mass exodus from reddit. Lock down the site and let new users trickle in over time to make sure it doesn’t get flooded with users that exceeds the moderation capabilities. I image if bot accounts became a big problem he’d do something like that again. It’s not a perfect or easy solution and it still has loopholes, but it’s a solution that reddit would never try because they are a company there to make $$, and tildes is a project to make a community
While there is no concrete plans yet regarding them AFAIK, one of the things we have talked about rather extensively behind the scenes is bots on Tildes. And one of the ideas bandied around was requiring them to register as bot accounts (distinct from normal users accounts), which would then be clearly marked for users to see and also easily filter out (unlike on reddit where you have to report then block each individual one). These bot accounts could also have limited permissions compared to normal users (e.g. not allowed to vote, only allowed to aside comment, etc). And this rule would also then allow Deimos the freedom to immediately ban any bot caught operating through regular accounts (i.e. spammers).
I would love bot accounts. Reddit has sadly done very little to support automated applications interacting with their platform, a bot-type account that can't vote and can't be voted on would likely help a lot to promote tildes as an alternative to reddit.
Yeah, bots get a lot of shit on reddit, but people often forget that Automoderator was originally a bot before Deimos was hired by reddit and integrated it into the site for them. And IMO the only reason bots really suck on reddit is because reddit has done a really poor job of managing them properly and not given users, mods and bot authors enough options related to them.
I think with proper containment, encouragement and (more importantly) well thought out features, they could really be a huge asset here... and ones that prove themselves really useful could even be officially "adopted" or even integrated into Tildes like Automod was on reddit.
I think one would have to be more careful than with automod; even after integration it always felt more like a bot to bandaid over issues with the Reddit UI than an actual improvement.
If some functionality of a bot becomes indisposable or irreplacable, it should be fully integrated as a function within Tildes, not continue operating as a bot.
To be fair to Automod, it was basically designed as a bandaid to begin with, and it's not like Deimos was really allowed to keep working on it much after integrating it either AFAIK. IIRC he was assigned to other roles shortly after "finishing" it, because Reddit Inc. doesn't value moderators, moderation or moderation tools at all. And even when he and krispykrackers were eventually assigned to the "modsupport" team together after the blackout... after the outrage died down they were quietly reassigned back to other roles before anything could really be accomplished in terms of mod tools development. :/
100% agree there. Bots are a great way for people who don't know fullstack development to still help with the site, since writing bots with a good API available is trivial. But if someone does create one that proves indispensable, its functionality should absolutely be integrated IMO.
Okay. Let's differentiate between bots that act as moderation tools, and bots which don't. The non-moderation bots which are just there to provide links or quote text from links or provide supposedly useful information or make silly replies are a blight on Reddit, and would similarly be a blight on Tildes. They don't add to discussion. They only create clutter.
If there's a need for an automated function on Tildes to support moderation, then build it into the site itself. There's no need for random people to create bots to clutter up Tildes discussions.
But why allow bots at all? Wouldn't it be easier just to ban all bots? I see the benefits but it's not like they're missed.
Edit: spelling
See my comment above:
https://tildes.net/~tech/c86/reddit_for_sale_how_we_bought_the_top_spot_for_200_2016#comment-30ss
Short term I think tidles is still too small (not a criticism at all) to worry much about that. Long term, I'd love to see some ideas/strategies to combat that sort of that (although maybe that would be showing one's hand)
By not being large enough for any advertiser to bother
A video similar problem by smarter every day
Is this kind of like what got Digg in trouble so many moons ago?
Digg embraced the seedy underbelly and made it the selling point of the site, much to anger of the userbase, which very quickly told them where to shove it and moved onto Reddit. I think reddit is smart enough to make the exact same mistake, but I think they'll dance around and introduce it slowly so as not to kick the bees nest. In some ways they already have and who knows what they're doing behind the scenes.