The basic idea that men can "opt-out" of the traditional goals of a wife and family isn't inherently a bad one. And there are some legitimate fears/concerns about false accusations having dire...
The basic idea that men can "opt-out" of the traditional goals of a wife and family isn't inherently a bad one. And there are some legitimate fears/concerns about false accusations having dire consequences (not excusing legitimate accusations or belittling the many things that women need to worry about). Its a shame that the actual movement is backed by misogyny and hate.
I remember MGTOW being a thing for years and it kind of struck me as a man-centric version of the "Pro-Ana" movement. Just people spending way too much time engaging in a form of psychological...
I remember MGTOW being a thing for years and it kind of struck me as a man-centric version of the "Pro-Ana" movement. Just people spending way too much time engaging in a form of psychological self-harm where they keep reinforcing the idea to themselves that they're ugly, unlovable, etc. The Pro-Ana types directed that self-hate inwards into body dysmorphia and it seems like the mgtow and trp types are directing it outwards, at women, which is a pattern that I think is in line with sociological studies on gender dynamics.
In either case I think they're sort of edge cases that really highlight the deficiencies of social media and online organizing. For some reason this didn't seem to happen much in the days of PHP forums and LiveJournals and MySpace, even though those platform were REALLY emo in their heydays. There seems to be something about the ease of discovery and interconnection that comes with what I call "monolithic social media platforms," like Facebook or Tumblr or Reddit, that really facilitate these sorts of crank ideas finding an audience, drawing them in, and then pickling them in negativity. I'm not really sure what the solution is, but it's pretty easy to draw an interconnection between this and other stuff like QAnon.
MGTOW is an amplification of real-world problems, in much the way incels are a projection of internal problems (I know, I've got all the qualifications, minus the projected rage in the face of my...
An orthopaedic surgeon in Chicago told the New York Times that he had ceased ever to be alone with female colleagues, saying: ‘I’m very cautious about it because my livelihood is on the line
MGTOW is an amplification of real-world problems, in much the way incels are a projection of internal problems (I know, I've got all the qualifications, minus the projected rage in the face of my own problems). I knew high school teachers who would consult with female students at their doorway to avoid accusations, for example, this was 2004-2008, and these are all good men who would never hurt a student (there were two that voiced their concern, but also explained the context it existed within and that it was also for the safety of the student). 2012 to today, in community college and university, male professors are scared/concerned to consult female students alone for much the same reason.
MGTOWers and incels actively, if unintentionally, subvert any potential for good-faith discussion about these issues because of their own distorted perception which also feeds their cycle of radicalization. A lot of the legitimate men's rights issues (inequitable divorce proceedings, false accusations of rape, lack of support as abuse victims) are being corrected slowly, and we're seeing better outcomes, in general, in regards to these issues which the angry MGTOW/incel crowds are not aware of, by intention or accident depending on the individual.
The discussion of men's issues is largely hijacked by people who feel burned by feminism. I still feel that way (I'm working on it), but have watched some of the BIG BAD SJWs and found they made actually salient points. There are communities like /r/menslib on reddit that are focused on positive discussion of these issues (it has 139k followers), and in a way, is an answer to the issues that lead people down the MGTOW/incel path (they're the same, but change based on relationship status, I think). It doesn't help that previous Men's Liberation stuff wound up focusing on straight white men, but we should strive for truly intersectional discussion about these issues. I think fostering an environment of positive discussion worldwide on these issues will lead to truly equitable outcomes, and tell hurting men that they aren't alone, which I think is a major driver for these sorts of groups.
EDIT: I clarified in the paragraph in this edit, but my feelings about feminism were internet-fuelled, fed by cherrypicked examples of people completely losing their minds, the meme-ified strawmen, as it were.
Is there some larger societal event that's causing this movement (and incels)? Is it just that the internet has enabled extreme sexists to gather more easily?
Is there some larger societal event that's causing this movement (and incels)? Is it just that the internet has enabled extreme sexists to gather more easily?
The internet allows a lot of disaffected people to be alone together and reinforce their idea on how things ought to work. The original Incel board was intended to be more of a support group...
The internet allows a lot of disaffected people to be alone together and reinforce their idea on how things ought to work. The original Incel board was intended to be more of a support group environment, but eventually the well adjusted members left the board, the jaded folks became the old guard, and social happened until they ended up where they are now.
The ability for everyone to come together is a double-edged sword as well. While people like that have always existed, I wonder if those dedicated communities have increased their size relative to...
The ability for everyone to come together is a double-edged sword as well. While people like that have always existed, I wonder if those dedicated communities have increased their size relative to history and if they are actively hindering people from moving on and growing up.
I think the dynamic is that the people who do grow out of it just leave. So it's essentially a distillation process where anyone who learns, grows, develops coping skills, etc. gets boiled away...
While people like that have always existed, I wonder if those dedicated communities have increased their size relative to history and if they are actively hindering people from moving on and growing up.
I think the dynamic is that the people who do grow out of it just leave. So it's essentially a distillation process where anyone who learns, grows, develops coping skills, etc. gets boiled away and what you're left with is an increasingly concentrated backset of negativity. Once it hits sufficient concentration, then it just turns into a pit of despair where anyone who falls in gets too soaked in negativity and self-hatred to really ever get out.
The ways out would be venues that focus on providing guidance and actionable steps to work on yourself or be okay with yourself. But all that takes work, and media that emphasized virality will always privilege content that can be absorbed quickly. Stuff that confirms your belief that you're a piece of shit or assigns an easy scapegoat for why you're unhappy will always rise to the top. Doomerism and "EVERYONE DESPAIR!" takes will too. Nuanced comments about how "that sucks, have you considered taking actionable steps that are within your control to mitigate or improve the situation?" never will.
One contributing factor is that in most online communities, the veterans of the community often become informal thought leaders. If your community is centred around a hobby, this places the most...
One contributing factor is that in most online communities, the veterans of the community often become informal thought leaders.
If your community is centred around a hobby, this places the most knowledgeable people in leadership roles. But if your community is for people with a particular problem, and they leave the community when they solve the problem, the ones who remain to become the veterans are often the least suited to be constructive influences on newer members. Their status in the community then spreads the unconstructive attitudes and bitterness to the rest of the community.
It's been suggested that this is how the original incel forum turned from a support group to the incel movement we know today.
I see this with medical self-help groups, too. A group with some odd condition that doesn't have one specific cause or one specific fix starts out and it's a place where people can get help and...
I see this with medical self-help groups, too. A group with some odd condition that doesn't have one specific cause or one specific fix starts out and it's a place where people can get help and offer help. Then, because each person with the condition has it for a different reason, some members find something that works, get better and stop participating. The remaining members become frustrated because what worked for those who left doesn't work for them (because it's not the same cause). It can lead to infighting, splintering into other groups, and bitterness. It's unfortunate. (And it doesn't happen all the time, but it's a common pattern.)
I imagine the key is to convince members who overcome their issue to continue participating in the community, so they can be a positive influence to members. That's certainly the conclusion...
I imagine the key is to convince members who overcome their issue to continue participating in the community, so they can be a positive influence to members. That's certainly the conclusion reached by the woman who founded the original incel community.
Yeah, that could help. And we do occasionally see that. In particular, Jennifer Brea has continued to advocate for people with ME/CFS even though she found the cause and fix for her case. But you...
Yeah, that could help. And we do occasionally see that. In particular, Jennifer Brea has continued to advocate for people with ME/CFS even though she found the cause and fix for her case.
But you can imagine that people who once suffered a debilitating illness often aren't enthusiastic about continuing to spend time ruminating on it after having lost so many years of their life to it. It's a tough situation and I can't blame people for wanting to move on.
It's always been there. My dad, after a bad, long relationship he was taken advantage of in, used to listen to Tom Leykis, who was a pretty intense misogynist, and argued about the evils of women...
It's always been there. My dad, after a bad, long relationship he was taken advantage of in, used to listen to Tom Leykis, who was a pretty intense misogynist, and argued about the evils of women in relationships, how they always undermined men and took their money. He's done a fair amount of damage inspiring people to follow his beliefs. People eat this stuff up, particularly if they're hurting. I think the major difference between an incel and a MGTOWer, is relationship status. Incels are bitter about never having had a relationship, and MGTOWers, near as I can tell, were in a bad relationship when they had "the secrets of women" revealed to them, much like my dad who, after a couple years, got over it and worked on legally protecting himself from his con-artist ex. It doesn't help that stories about bad relationships tend to be more interesting than stories about good relationships.
Of course, the internet is, as usual, the great accelerant.
People in healthy relationships rarely feel the need to go online and talk about it. They're usually just enjoying their relationship. Some social media personalities are parts of power couples...
It doesn't help that stories about bad relationships tend to be more interesting than stories about good relationships.
People in healthy relationships rarely feel the need to go online and talk about it. They're usually just enjoying their relationship.
Some social media personalities are parts of power couples and can sort of model healthy relationships that way and cut against the negative/toxic narratives people spending too much time online might be absorbing. But usually you'd need to be engaging in hobbies that attract those sorts of people, like cooking or crafts or childcare. If all you do is engage in spaces for video games or being mad about Star Wars, you're never going to find it.
There definitely seems to be less people in relationships now and the gender gap stuff popping up here is highly weaponizable if you're some vaguely young guy who knows absolutely nothing about...
Is there some larger societal event that's causing this movement (and incels)?
There definitely seems to be lesspeople in relationships now and the gender gap stuff popping up here is highly weaponizable if you're some vaguely young guy who knows absolutely nothing about social dynamics and can't do introspection or (as cited by moocow) you visit a lot of circlejerks, especially if they're about being lonely and hear about dating entirely in the context of failure (especially if it's failure to impress someone else), just blaming the women doesn't seem too taxing mentally.
I also had no issue doing absolutely none of those things and attracting partners. The reason it is vague and contradictory is that humans are diverse and what works for one person doesn't...
I also had no issue doing absolutely none of those things and attracting partners.
The reason it is vague and contradictory is that humans are diverse and what works for one person doesn't necessarily work on others. There is no 'game' to figure out, and treating it like one is one of the great failings in how we educate people in both how to look for a partner and how people should be approaching relationships in general.
As a side note, this is also why most relationships fail, and it took me until my 30s to really start realizing this because the education on the matter is fucking terrible and it wasn't until I had enough experience with dating and spent enough time in both therapy and with relationship counselors that I realized why everything they said was important and how to apply it to my life better.
If perhaps I had been educated on some basic relationship psychology from a younger age, I think things might have been drastically different. I believe we need to focus more on practical education (skills and knowledge that everyone is likely to find useful throughout their lives). I certainly don't use my knowledge of European history as much as I do what I've learned about how to interact with people and maintain human relationships or basic human biology and psychology.
We are taught so many toxic relationship habits during our lives. It's really frustrating for me to think about. I remember in grade school being read "The Giving Tree" and being taught that we...
We are taught so many toxic relationship habits during our lives. It's really frustrating for me to think about. I remember in grade school being read "The Giving Tree" and being taught that we should be like the tree and give of ourselves until nothing is left. (I attended Catholic school at the time, so there was some religious motivation to it, as well.) It wasn't until I was in (a public) high school psych class and the teacher used it as an example of a toxic relationship that it even occurred to me that, no, I shouldn't do that. That's sick. I would love to see some sort of basic human interaction class be a requirement for elementary school kids, and probably an advanced one for high school kids. (But then I don't really trust our schools in the US to properly teach it, so it's probably not worth it.)
I really don't know what to say other than turning this into a game to win is objectifying your partner and not healthy. There is no game. Making it into a game is unhealthy and bound to result in...
I really don't know what to say other than turning this into a game to win is objectifying your partner and not healthy. There is no game. Making it into a game is unhealthy and bound to result in more failed relationships than successful ones. Does it matter how many people you can get to pay attention to you if ultimately more of them end up in failure?
The respectful or "normal" angle drew literally zero catches in the opening stages of courting.
if you played it straight for the initiation you almost never found success.
This is confirmation bias. I am absolutely 'normal' or 'respectful' and I have never had issues dating.
Women of a significantly lower "physical attractiveness" for lack of better terms, can swipe right only on men well out of their bracket and still receive intimacy whereas ugly straight men are completely fucked. They don't even get to shoot their shot.
This is an entirely different problem of how the market currently exists and who it caters to. You're right to point this out because it's a massive failing of the current paradigm, however.
Absolutely. Loire...not to harsh on you too much, but the way you described looking for companionship is kinda gross. Seems like you expect some quid-pro-quo. Along the lines of: "I put in some...
I really don't know what to say other than turning this into a game to win is objectifying your partner and not healthy. There is no game.
Absolutely.
Loire...not to harsh on you too much, but the way you described looking for companionship is kinda gross. Seems like you expect some quid-pro-quo. Along the lines of: "I put in some effort to attract someone, so I deserve romantic companionship." Even if it's more along the lines of "I put in some effort to attract someone...why is no one paying attention to me?", I still think that's a bad mindset to have. Have no expectations. No one's entitled to hitch up with anyone else, really. If you're not a weirdo (the bad kind) putting out creep vibes (which, if you're thinking in a "game" mindset...you might be) and exist in a regular social sphere, you're bound to hit it off with someone. Or, maybe not. C'est la vie.
Ya, I def agree. Though, I've had brief (very brief) relationships with people that aren't necessarily my "type" , those flings happened because I was my damn self and they were definitely not...
Ya, I def agree.
Though, I've had brief (very brief) relationships with people that aren't necessarily my "type" , those flings happened because I was my damn self and they were definitely not expected. Often, people are endeared to you if you're honest about yourself, have a good sense of humor, and are a bit self-deprecating!
I think that may be because it shows you're more secure about yourself vs. the bros that affect a sense of machismo. I dunno, though. I don't think about it too much, nor is it something I work on to make myself more appealing. I'm just me! Y'all should be just you! (sometimes, a bit of alcohol helps)
MFW (BTW Tinder isn't allowed to be used until 18 IIRC, and given the penalty is possibly stumbling upon a pedophile, I don't think anyone will try to skirt that barrier.) Not to argue with the...
I pity kids coming up in the tinder era. You don't even get the chance to practice failing.
(BTW Tinder isn't allowed to be used until 18 IIRC, and given the penalty is possibly stumbling upon a pedophile, I don't think anyone will try to skirt that barrier.)
Something like 20% of men are having all the sex with 70% of the women leaving the other 80% of men scrambling.
Not to argue with the rest of your comment, but that point in particular seems to be a lie, and a pretty bad lie at that. In the article you linked:
Additionally, it is easy to misinterpret the 20/70 figure by assuming that 70 percent of all women are sleeping with 20 percent of men. That would be an understandable but incorrect interpretation. Rather, 20 percent of all men are reporting 70 percent of all relationships. We can get some clarity on this misinterpretation by assessing the same among women. When we do, we find that 20 percent of women in the Relationships in America data report 65 percent of the lifetime reported male sexual partners. So what do the two figures together tell us? That high numbers of sexual partners are largely concentrated among a minority of both men and women. Since men yield a 20/70 account and women a 20/65 account, it means that there is a great deal of "coupling" going on within 20 percent of the population...
There's still inequality, 20/65 and 20/70 aren't the same number but it doesn't say women, and only women date a disproportionately small share of the opposite sex.
You're up on this already, aren't you @dubteedub? I don't take for granted that these topics would be universally known -- my very-offline roommates recently told me they weren't familiar even...
You're up on this already, aren't you @dubteedub? I don't take for granted that these topics would be universally known -- my very-offline roommates recently told me they weren't familiar even with the term "incel" -- but this article seems fairly basic, reminiscent of battle-of-the-sexes kinds of commentary. "Take my wife, please!" say the misogynists.
Hi dubteedub - we've never talked before on this but I'm just wondering how you are working towards getting them banned? The fact that TRP even exists is crazy to me (though is a logical...
Hi dubteedub - we've never talked before on this but I'm just wondering how you are working towards getting them banned? The fact that TRP even exists is crazy to me (though is a logical misogynistic consequence of pick up artistry and inceldom conflated together).
Thats amazing! Thank you for the work you are putting in. This is a preposterous repackaging of sex based segregation. I was familiar with incels and "volcels" (as some like to call them selves...
Thats amazing! Thank you for the work you are putting in. This is a preposterous repackaging of sex based segregation. I was familiar with incels and "volcels" (as some like to call them selves lol) but had never heard of MGTOW.
Never heard of these ideas before, so had to google some. This should get more exposure from mainstream so these people could get help early before they are sucked in to the crazy. But why get the...
Never heard of these ideas before, so had to google some. This should get more exposure from mainstream so these people could get help early before they are sucked in to the crazy.
But why get the reddit's banned? Sure it's offensive but everything is offensive to someone out there, that should not be the measure to censure something.
i understand the reasoning, however keep in mind that most religious texts have been the instigator for far worse. Computer games have been accused of causing school shooting accidents. And there...
i understand the reasoning, however keep in mind that most religious texts have been the instigator for far worse. Computer games have been accused of causing school shooting accidents. And there are more examples but the point is it's not the message, it's receiver.
Curbing free speech is usually not the solution.
They’re still free to say the exact same things they’d say in MGTOW anywhere else. Their speech isn’t being curbed, Reddit would just be getting rid of a venue to farm karma for it.
Curbing free speech is usually not the solution.
They’re still free to say the exact same things they’d say in MGTOW anywhere else. Their speech isn’t being curbed, Reddit would just be getting rid of a venue to farm karma for it.
By absolute metrics, that's a pretty big number. But...that only accounts for 33/151800 (or ~0.02%) of men in the United States (assuming this website is U.S.-centric) which... seems kinda...
But this isn’t an obscure internet cul-de-sac; mgtow.com alone has almost 33,000 members.
By absolute metrics, that's a pretty big number. But...that only accounts for 33/151800 (or ~0.02%) of men in the United States (assuming this website is U.S.-centric) which... seems kinda obscure, to me?
Anyway, I don't mind people seeking out a life of solitude. Sounds pretty nice, honestly. But... yea, these people make that idea seem gross.
The basic idea that men can "opt-out" of the traditional goals of a wife and family isn't inherently a bad one. And there are some legitimate fears/concerns about false accusations having dire consequences (not excusing legitimate accusations or belittling the many things that women need to worry about). Its a shame that the actual movement is backed by misogyny and hate.
I remember MGTOW being a thing for years and it kind of struck me as a man-centric version of the "Pro-Ana" movement. Just people spending way too much time engaging in a form of psychological self-harm where they keep reinforcing the idea to themselves that they're ugly, unlovable, etc. The Pro-Ana types directed that self-hate inwards into body dysmorphia and it seems like the mgtow and trp types are directing it outwards, at women, which is a pattern that I think is in line with sociological studies on gender dynamics.
In either case I think they're sort of edge cases that really highlight the deficiencies of social media and online organizing. For some reason this didn't seem to happen much in the days of PHP forums and LiveJournals and MySpace, even though those platform were REALLY emo in their heydays. There seems to be something about the ease of discovery and interconnection that comes with what I call "monolithic social media platforms," like Facebook or Tumblr or Reddit, that really facilitate these sorts of crank ideas finding an audience, drawing them in, and then pickling them in negativity. I'm not really sure what the solution is, but it's pretty easy to draw an interconnection between this and other stuff like QAnon.
MGTOW is an amplification of real-world problems, in much the way incels are a projection of internal problems (I know, I've got all the qualifications, minus the projected rage in the face of my own problems). I knew high school teachers who would consult with female students at their doorway to avoid accusations, for example, this was 2004-2008, and these are all good men who would never hurt a student (there were two that voiced their concern, but also explained the context it existed within and that it was also for the safety of the student). 2012 to today, in community college and university, male professors are scared/concerned to consult female students alone for much the same reason.
MGTOWers and incels actively, if unintentionally, subvert any potential for good-faith discussion about these issues because of their own distorted perception which also feeds their cycle of radicalization. A lot of the legitimate men's rights issues (inequitable divorce proceedings, false accusations of rape, lack of support as abuse victims) are being corrected slowly, and we're seeing better outcomes, in general, in regards to these issues which the angry MGTOW/incel crowds are not aware of, by intention or accident depending on the individual.
The discussion of men's issues is largely hijacked by people who feel burned by feminism. I still feel that way (I'm working on it), but have watched some of the BIG BAD SJWs and found they made actually salient points. There are communities like /r/menslib on reddit that are focused on positive discussion of these issues (it has 139k followers), and in a way, is an answer to the issues that lead people down the MGTOW/incel path (they're the same, but change based on relationship status, I think). It doesn't help that previous Men's Liberation stuff wound up focusing on straight white men, but we should strive for truly intersectional discussion about these issues. I think fostering an environment of positive discussion worldwide on these issues will lead to truly equitable outcomes, and tell hurting men that they aren't alone, which I think is a major driver for these sorts of groups.
EDIT: I clarified in the paragraph in this edit, but my feelings about feminism were internet-fuelled, fed by cherrypicked examples of people completely losing their minds, the meme-ified strawmen, as it were.
Is there some larger societal event that's causing this movement (and incels)? Is it just that the internet has enabled extreme sexists to gather more easily?
The internet allows a lot of disaffected people to be alone together and reinforce their idea on how things ought to work. The original Incel board was intended to be more of a support group environment, but eventually the well adjusted members left the board, the jaded folks became the old guard, and social happened until they ended up where they are now.
Edit: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45284455
The ability for everyone to come together is a double-edged sword as well. While people like that have always existed, I wonder if those dedicated communities have increased their size relative to history and if they are actively hindering people from moving on and growing up.
I think the dynamic is that the people who do grow out of it just leave. So it's essentially a distillation process where anyone who learns, grows, develops coping skills, etc. gets boiled away and what you're left with is an increasingly concentrated backset of negativity. Once it hits sufficient concentration, then it just turns into a pit of despair where anyone who falls in gets too soaked in negativity and self-hatred to really ever get out.
The ways out would be venues that focus on providing guidance and actionable steps to work on yourself or be okay with yourself. But all that takes work, and media that emphasized virality will always privilege content that can be absorbed quickly. Stuff that confirms your belief that you're a piece of shit or assigns an easy scapegoat for why you're unhappy will always rise to the top. Doomerism and "EVERYONE DESPAIR!" takes will too. Nuanced comments about how "that sucks, have you considered taking actionable steps that are within your control to mitigate or improve the situation?" never will.
One contributing factor is that in most online communities, the veterans of the community often become informal thought leaders.
If your community is centred around a hobby, this places the most knowledgeable people in leadership roles. But if your community is for people with a particular problem, and they leave the community when they solve the problem, the ones who remain to become the veterans are often the least suited to be constructive influences on newer members. Their status in the community then spreads the unconstructive attitudes and bitterness to the rest of the community.
It's been suggested that this is how the original incel forum turned from a support group to the incel movement we know today.
I see this with medical self-help groups, too. A group with some odd condition that doesn't have one specific cause or one specific fix starts out and it's a place where people can get help and offer help. Then, because each person with the condition has it for a different reason, some members find something that works, get better and stop participating. The remaining members become frustrated because what worked for those who left doesn't work for them (because it's not the same cause). It can lead to infighting, splintering into other groups, and bitterness. It's unfortunate. (And it doesn't happen all the time, but it's a common pattern.)
I imagine the key is to convince members who overcome their issue to continue participating in the community, so they can be a positive influence to members. That's certainly the conclusion reached by the woman who founded the original incel community.
Yeah, that could help. And we do occasionally see that. In particular, Jennifer Brea has continued to advocate for people with ME/CFS even though she found the cause and fix for her case.
But you can imagine that people who once suffered a debilitating illness often aren't enthusiastic about continuing to spend time ruminating on it after having lost so many years of their life to it. It's a tough situation and I can't blame people for wanting to move on.
It's always been there. My dad, after a bad, long relationship he was taken advantage of in, used to listen to Tom Leykis, who was a pretty intense misogynist, and argued about the evils of women in relationships, how they always undermined men and took their money. He's done a fair amount of damage inspiring people to follow his beliefs. People eat this stuff up, particularly if they're hurting. I think the major difference between an incel and a MGTOWer, is relationship status. Incels are bitter about never having had a relationship, and MGTOWers, near as I can tell, were in a bad relationship when they had "the secrets of women" revealed to them, much like my dad who, after a couple years, got over it and worked on legally protecting himself from his con-artist ex. It doesn't help that stories about bad relationships tend to be more interesting than stories about good relationships.
Of course, the internet is, as usual, the great accelerant.
People in healthy relationships rarely feel the need to go online and talk about it. They're usually just enjoying their relationship.
Some social media personalities are parts of power couples and can sort of model healthy relationships that way and cut against the negative/toxic narratives people spending too much time online might be absorbing. But usually you'd need to be engaging in hobbies that attract those sorts of people, like cooking or crafts or childcare. If all you do is engage in spaces for video games or being mad about Star Wars, you're never going to find it.
There definitely seems to be less people in relationships now and the gender gap stuff popping up here is highly weaponizable if you're some vaguely young guy who knows absolutely nothing about social dynamics and can't do introspection or (as cited by moocow) you visit a lot of circlejerks, especially if they're about being lonely and hear about dating entirely in the context of failure (especially if it's failure to impress someone else), just blaming the women doesn't seem too taxing mentally.
I also had no issue doing absolutely none of those things and attracting partners.
The reason it is vague and contradictory is that humans are diverse and what works for one person doesn't necessarily work on others. There is no 'game' to figure out, and treating it like one is one of the great failings in how we educate people in both how to look for a partner and how people should be approaching relationships in general.
As a side note, this is also why most relationships fail, and it took me until my 30s to really start realizing this because the education on the matter is fucking terrible and it wasn't until I had enough experience with dating and spent enough time in both therapy and with relationship counselors that I realized why everything they said was important and how to apply it to my life better.
If perhaps I had been educated on some basic relationship psychology from a younger age, I think things might have been drastically different. I believe we need to focus more on practical education (skills and knowledge that everyone is likely to find useful throughout their lives). I certainly don't use my knowledge of European history as much as I do what I've learned about how to interact with people and maintain human relationships or basic human biology and psychology.
We are taught so many toxic relationship habits during our lives. It's really frustrating for me to think about. I remember in grade school being read "The Giving Tree" and being taught that we should be like the tree and give of ourselves until nothing is left. (I attended Catholic school at the time, so there was some religious motivation to it, as well.) It wasn't until I was in (a public) high school psych class and the teacher used it as an example of a toxic relationship that it even occurred to me that, no, I shouldn't do that. That's sick. I would love to see some sort of basic human interaction class be a requirement for elementary school kids, and probably an advanced one for high school kids. (But then I don't really trust our schools in the US to properly teach it, so it's probably not worth it.)
I really don't know what to say other than turning this into a game to win is objectifying your partner and not healthy. There is no game. Making it into a game is unhealthy and bound to result in more failed relationships than successful ones. Does it matter how many people you can get to pay attention to you if ultimately more of them end up in failure?
This is confirmation bias. I am absolutely 'normal' or 'respectful' and I have never had issues dating.
This is an entirely different problem of how the market currently exists and who it caters to. You're right to point this out because it's a massive failing of the current paradigm, however.
Absolutely.
Loire...not to harsh on you too much, but the way you described looking for companionship is kinda gross. Seems like you expect some quid-pro-quo. Along the lines of: "I put in some effort to attract someone, so I deserve romantic companionship." Even if it's more along the lines of "I put in some effort to attract someone...why is no one paying attention to me?", I still think that's a bad mindset to have. Have no expectations. No one's entitled to hitch up with anyone else, really. If you're not a weirdo (the bad kind) putting out creep vibes (which, if you're thinking in a "game" mindset...you might be) and exist in a regular social sphere, you're bound to hit it off with someone. Or, maybe not. C'est la vie.
Ya, I def agree.
Though, I've had brief (very brief) relationships with people that aren't necessarily my "type" , those flings happened because I was my damn self and they were definitely not expected. Often, people are endeared to you if you're honest about yourself, have a good sense of humor, and are a bit self-deprecating!
I think that may be because it shows you're more secure about yourself vs. the bros that affect a sense of machismo. I dunno, though. I don't think about it too much, nor is it something I work on to make myself more appealing. I'm just me! Y'all should be just you! (sometimes, a bit of alcohol helps)
I am bi/pansexual and was assigned male at birth
No worries, I get it a lot on account of my username 😂
MFW
(BTW Tinder isn't allowed to be used until 18 IIRC, and given the penalty is possibly stumbling upon a pedophile, I don't think anyone will try to skirt that barrier.)
Not to argue with the rest of your comment, but that point in particular seems to be a lie, and a pretty bad lie at that. In the article you linked:
There's still inequality, 20/65 and 20/70 aren't the same number but it doesn't say women, and only women date a disproportionately small share of the opposite sex.
You're up on this already, aren't you @dubteedub? I don't take for granted that these topics would be universally known -- my very-offline roommates recently told me they weren't familiar even with the term "incel" -- but this article seems fairly basic, reminiscent of battle-of-the-sexes kinds of commentary. "Take my wife, please!" say the misogynists.
Hi dubteedub - we've never talked before on this but I'm just wondering how you are working towards getting them banned? The fact that TRP even exists is crazy to me (though is a logical misogynistic consequence of pick up artistry and inceldom conflated together).
Thats amazing! Thank you for the work you are putting in. This is a preposterous repackaging of sex based segregation. I was familiar with incels and "volcels" (as some like to call them selves lol) but had never heard of MGTOW.
Never heard of these ideas before, so had to google some. This should get more exposure from mainstream so these people could get help early before they are sucked in to the crazy.
But why get the reddit's banned? Sure it's offensive but everything is offensive to someone out there, that should not be the measure to censure something.
i understand the reasoning, however keep in mind that most religious texts have been the instigator for far worse. Computer games have been accused of causing school shooting accidents. And there are more examples but the point is it's not the message, it's receiver.
Curbing free speech is usually not the solution.
They’re still free to say the exact same things they’d say in MGTOW anywhere else. Their speech isn’t being curbed, Reddit would just be getting rid of a venue to farm karma for it.
By absolute metrics, that's a pretty big number. But...that only accounts for 33/151800 (or ~0.02%) of men in the United States (assuming this website is U.S.-centric) which... seems kinda obscure, to me?
Anyway, I don't mind people seeking out a life of solitude. Sounds pretty nice, honestly. But... yea, these people make that idea seem gross.