Fuck ANY company that makes it more difficult than it needs to be with regards to aftermarket repair if there is no valid safety reason to do so, and secondly, no cheap and easy way to satisfy...
Issues like the Tesla battery and repairing iPhones is why we need national right-to-repair legislation. Manufacturers don’t want us to fix our own stuff and they make it hard, if not impossible, to do so. That may be changing. President Biden signed an executive order in July aimed at making it easier to fix your own stuff and the FTC has formally adopted a right-to-repair platform.
Fuck ANY company that makes it more difficult than it needs to be with regards to aftermarket repair if there is no valid safety reason to do so, and secondly, no cheap and easy way to satisfy that safety concern.
So far, all or most of the restrictions I have seen have been solely in the name of protection of profits.
So I actually work on electric vehicle batteries for a different OEM and while I'm generally in favor of right to repair these things are fucking dangerous. If you don't know what you're doing you...
So I actually work on electric vehicle batteries for a different OEM and while I'm generally in favor of right to repair these things are fucking dangerous. If you don't know what you're doing you could pretty easily electrocute yourself or start a fire that burns the entire building down and can't easily be put out. And that's without knowing what they did to repair it and if that will hold up over time or catastrophically fail at some future date.
It's true that EV's have fewer moving parts than ICE vehicles. But that doesn't mean you can just swap things out. There's a lot that goes into it or you risk creating an extremely dangerous situation. It's completely different than swapping out the screen on a cell phone.
God I hate that this article made me defend Tesla, but it's pretty irresponsible in how it glosses over how incredibly dangerous what it's advocating for is.
There might be a middle ground where more information, training and tools are made available, but for the love of god do not go poking around anywhere inside an EV's power train without an actual expert around. And an expert who knows EV power trains specifically, not just 'cars' in general.
This is why we need Right to Repair legislation. So that mechanics can get the training, the tools, the parts, and the manuals to fix shit properly. This extends to computers, phones, tablets,...
God I hate that this article made me defend Tesla, but it's pretty irresponsible in how it glosses over how incredibly dangerous what it's advocating for is.
There might be a middle ground where more information, training and tools are made available, but for the love of god do not go poking around anywhere inside an EV's power train without an actual expert around. And an expert who knows EV power trains specifically, not just 'cars' in general.
This is why we need Right to Repair legislation. So that mechanics can get the training, the tools, the parts, and the manuals to fix shit properly.
This extends to computers, phones, tablets, farm equipment, and basically everything electronic. The problem is that companies like Apple and Samsung make deals with their part manufacturers to only sell the parts to them. They make proprietary tools, keep their manuals in confidence, and scream about hackers and trade secrets anytime people want to get near them. I want to read your board schematics and change a chip, not study how your security software works and become elite hax0rz.
It pains me to defend Tesla here, but Vice, not entirely uncommon for them, is purposefully keeping some details out or are just too inept on the subject matter to be reporting on it. Yep, this...
It pains me to defend Tesla here, but Vice, not entirely uncommon for them, is purposefully keeping some details out or are just too inept on the subject matter to be reporting on it.
When YouTuber Tyler Hoover’s Tesla Model S P85 battery stopped holding a charge, he took it to Tesla for repair. The car was out of warranty and Tesla wanted to replace the entire battery for a total cost of $22,500. The Kelly Blue Book value of the used Tesla was about $23,000. After some research, Hoover was able to get the Tesla repaired by an independent shop for about $5,000, or 75 percent cheaper than what Tesla offered.
“The point we’re trying to make is giving people options,” Benoit told Motherboard on the phone. “Right now, with Tesla, you don’t have an option...it’s buy a new battery or GTFO.”
Yep, this is/would be the case for every single manufacturer, not just Tesla whether the car is electric or not. The techs at a Tesla dealership aren't electrical engineers, they're the same techs that are at a Chrysler dealership. They'll plug in a diagnostic tool, it'll tell them what's wrong, they'll replace it. They do not fix things. They are manual labor trained to follow instructions in the service manual to replace, not fix, parts. This is the case whether it's Tesla's battery or a Chevrolet's engine or a Ford's transmission or a Honda's radio. They aren't going to fix it, they're going to replace it, and depending on what part/happened they'll recycle it, trash it, or send it back to corporate (in the case of engines replaced under warranty) for examination.
Enter Rich Benoit, YouTuber and right-to-repair advocate who has hacked Teslas and built his own electric vehicles out of the discarded parts. Benoit was able to find a mechanic who could diagnose the problem and make repairs to the vehicle for about $5,000, considerably less than Tesla wanted to replace the battery.
Benoit said that, in his experience, gas powered cars are typically harder to work on than electric vehicles, and it’s still easier to get them serviced than Teslas. “It’s not rocket science,” he said. “You have literally teenagers doing break and oil changes on $100,000 cars and the customer hops in these cars and drives 85 miles an hour on the highway. We’re trusting these repairs to people that don’t have a ton of experience.”
Even if we completely ignore the dangers involved with a mere technician trying to find and replace individual cells in a high voltage system that can have catastrophic consequences, the expertise just isn't there to actually "fix" the car. He likes to bring up that the cars are simple when compared to the number of parts in an ICE car, which is true, but in the same vein the Mazda Rotary engine has three moving parts. Yet you'll be hard pressed to find someone that can repair them as the expertise just isn't there compared to a normal ICE.
Oil changes and brakes are simple procedures with detailed step-by-step instructions meant to be carried out by the lowest skilled techs, so of course they're being done by the least experienced people. They aren't rebuilding an engine or transmission.
But Tesla has done a great job of marketing the Teslas as a complicated piece of machinery that needs certified technicians to do repairs. Many basic repairs are impossible to do on its cars because of software locks. “Tesla, first and foremost, is a software company,” Benoit said.
Every manufacturer says this from Acura to Zenvo. I'd like to see what they're referring to as "basic repairs" that is being blocked by software.
Tesla recently released its Toolbox, a set of diagnostic software that will tell a repair shop or Tesla owner what’s wrong with a car. Anyone can purchase access to the Toolbox but it costs $3,000 a year or $100 for 24 hours. But diagnostics are only half the issue.
A simple following of the link they put in their own article would show that it's outdated, the cost is no longer $3,000 per year, and service manuals are now available. Charging for the diagnostic tools and manuals is nothing new and has been going on for decades. People like me, that repair their own older vehicles, have paid handsomely for service manuals to our vehicles, just as private repair shops have to do as well. Nowadays it's just all electronic instead of a physical book the size of an old dictionary.
“You can get a rear Tesla motor out in a matter of 30 minutes,” Benoit said. “The problem comes when that new motor is supposed to go in. That’s when you have to use the diagnostic software to tell the car this is okay, put this motor in here. I accept this motor...right now, that’s not possible.”
I can get the ECU out of my Honda in half the time, but I also can't just plug in another one and expect it to work. This quote grossly oversimplifies what all is in Tesla's motor and needs to be correctly configured in order for it to work properly. You can't have highly regulated, intelligent, and responsive systems that also have magical plug-and-play compatibility right now.
Replacement Tesla parts have to be installed by a certified Tesla dealership.
Which, sad as it may be, is within their right. Mazda is under no obligation to sell OEM parts to 3rd parties. If you needed a new engine or alternator in your car, there's nothing stopping Mazda from saying you have to bring it to them to get an original part installed and there are several, typically higher end, manufacturers that do this. Their parts to do with what they please. The lower end cars either aren't worth the restrictions, are worth the profit margins on parts, or there are 3rd party manufacturers making parts for them.
Which begs the question, how did Benoit and his team replace Hoover’s battery? “We have alternate means of getting into things,” he said. “We don’t necessarily need the Toolbox in a lot of cases, but it would make our lives 10 time easier…Tesla is locking down more and more access to cars. There’s a lot of things that you used to be able to do that you no longer can do. They’re definitely tightening restrictions.”
You're allowed to say you have hacked/cracked (or have access to someone who did) Tesla software or a tech that gave you codes to fix it. Happens constantly, it's not some big secret. Facts are there are a lot of absolute shit repair shops out there and if one of them botches a repair that only shows up a few months or a year later on your Tesla you aren't going to be blasting the repair shop on social media, you'll be screaming about Tesla being unreliable.
Fuck ANY company that makes it more difficult than it needs to be with regards to aftermarket repair if there is no valid safety reason to do so, and secondly, no cheap and easy way to satisfy that safety concern.
So far, all or most of the restrictions I have seen have been solely in the name of protection of profits.
So I actually work on electric vehicle batteries for a different OEM and while I'm generally in favor of right to repair these things are fucking dangerous. If you don't know what you're doing you could pretty easily electrocute yourself or start a fire that burns the entire building down and can't easily be put out. And that's without knowing what they did to repair it and if that will hold up over time or catastrophically fail at some future date.
It's true that EV's have fewer moving parts than ICE vehicles. But that doesn't mean you can just swap things out. There's a lot that goes into it or you risk creating an extremely dangerous situation. It's completely different than swapping out the screen on a cell phone.
God I hate that this article made me defend Tesla, but it's pretty irresponsible in how it glosses over how incredibly dangerous what it's advocating for is.
There might be a middle ground where more information, training and tools are made available, but for the love of god do not go poking around anywhere inside an EV's power train without an actual expert around. And an expert who knows EV power trains specifically, not just 'cars' in general.
This is why we need Right to Repair legislation. So that mechanics can get the training, the tools, the parts, and the manuals to fix shit properly.
This extends to computers, phones, tablets, farm equipment, and basically everything electronic. The problem is that companies like Apple and Samsung make deals with their part manufacturers to only sell the parts to them. They make proprietary tools, keep their manuals in confidence, and scream about hackers and trade secrets anytime people want to get near them. I want to read your board schematics and change a chip, not study how your security software works and become elite hax0rz.
It pains me to defend Tesla here, but Vice, not entirely uncommon for them, is purposefully keeping some details out or are just too inept on the subject matter to be reporting on it.
Yep, this is/would be the case for every single manufacturer, not just Tesla whether the car is electric or not. The techs at a Tesla dealership aren't electrical engineers, they're the same techs that are at a Chrysler dealership. They'll plug in a diagnostic tool, it'll tell them what's wrong, they'll replace it. They do not fix things. They are manual labor trained to follow instructions in the service manual to replace, not fix, parts. This is the case whether it's Tesla's battery or a Chevrolet's engine or a Ford's transmission or a Honda's radio. They aren't going to fix it, they're going to replace it, and depending on what part/happened they'll recycle it, trash it, or send it back to corporate (in the case of engines replaced under warranty) for examination.
Even if we completely ignore the dangers involved with a mere technician trying to find and replace individual cells in a high voltage system that can have catastrophic consequences, the expertise just isn't there to actually "fix" the car. He likes to bring up that the cars are simple when compared to the number of parts in an ICE car, which is true, but in the same vein the Mazda Rotary engine has three moving parts. Yet you'll be hard pressed to find someone that can repair them as the expertise just isn't there compared to a normal ICE.
Oil changes and brakes are simple procedures with detailed step-by-step instructions meant to be carried out by the lowest skilled techs, so of course they're being done by the least experienced people. They aren't rebuilding an engine or transmission.
Every manufacturer says this from Acura to Zenvo. I'd like to see what they're referring to as "basic repairs" that is being blocked by software.
A simple following of the link they put in their own article would show that it's outdated, the cost is no longer $3,000 per year, and service manuals are now available. Charging for the diagnostic tools and manuals is nothing new and has been going on for decades. People like me, that repair their own older vehicles, have paid handsomely for service manuals to our vehicles, just as private repair shops have to do as well. Nowadays it's just all electronic instead of a physical book the size of an old dictionary.
I can get the ECU out of my Honda in half the time, but I also can't just plug in another one and expect it to work. This quote grossly oversimplifies what all is in Tesla's motor and needs to be correctly configured in order for it to work properly. You can't have highly regulated, intelligent, and responsive systems that also have magical plug-and-play compatibility right now.
Which, sad as it may be, is within their right. Mazda is under no obligation to sell OEM parts to 3rd parties. If you needed a new engine or alternator in your car, there's nothing stopping Mazda from saying you have to bring it to them to get an original part installed and there are several, typically higher end, manufacturers that do this. Their parts to do with what they please. The lower end cars either aren't worth the restrictions, are worth the profit margins on parts, or there are 3rd party manufacturers making parts for them.
You're allowed to say you have hacked/cracked (or have access to someone who did) Tesla software or a tech that gave you codes to fix it. Happens constantly, it's not some big secret. Facts are there are a lot of absolute shit repair shops out there and if one of them botches a repair that only shows up a few months or a year later on your Tesla you aren't going to be blasting the repair shop on social media, you'll be screaming about Tesla being unreliable.
We do need right-to-repair laws.