An older post where I describe my experiences with Vizio since they started this crap. Update on my setup since then: I hate this TV. Since writing those last posts I despise this TV even more and...
I hate this TV. Since writing those last posts I despise this TV even more and I'm kinda off TVs. My next TV will just be a dumb projector for my PC and stereo.
I’m sick of this kind of thing too. I bought a Shield TV as a smart attachment to get around my TV’s nonsense and now its homescreen is inescapably filled with ads. I feel like I need uBlock for...
I’m sick of this kind of thing too. I bought a Shield TV as a smart attachment to get around my TV’s nonsense and now its homescreen is inescapably filled with ads. I feel like I need uBlock for my entire network but don’t have the knowhow to properly administrate a Pi-hole.
Is there something like the Pi-hole, but turnkey and usable by non-techy people? Maybe a particular router I can buy? I’d gladly throw my money at something that can block ads across my whole network and keep all my devices from phoning home.
I think the Apple TV is the only streaming device that does not place ads anywhere in the OS. The top section of the home screen will show suggested content from the apps you place in the top row...
I think the Apple TV is the only streaming device that does not place ads anywhere in the OS.
The top section of the home screen will show suggested content from the apps you place in the top row and that is it. I wouldn't consider those ads, since nobody paid to place them there, and it's usually filled with whatever shows I'm in-progress on.
I also noticed with my Pi-Hole that the devices is much less chatty with suspicious domains than my Roku and Shield were.
AndroidTV does something similar as well, though it also has recommendations from apps you're not subscribed to (ironically, Apple TV is the biggest one there).
AndroidTV does something similar as well, though it also has recommendations from apps you're not subscribed to (ironically, Apple TV is the biggest one there).
Those are paid for, and a big reason why I ditched my Shield TV. Also they kept making the home screen layout worse and worse. I like the Apple TVs simple grid of icons. I understand ads on a...
Those are paid for, and a big reason why I ditched my Shield TV. Also they kept making the home screen layout worse and worse. I like the Apple TVs simple grid of icons.
I understand ads on a heavily cost-subsidized device like a fire TV or a Roku, but an Nvidia Shield costs more an Apple TV 4k. It should not ship with ads or detailed tracking.
That's not really the Nvidia Shield at fault, that's the AndroidTV OS. It's the same situation regardless of the device, whether it's built into the TV or on a standalone pricey device like the...
That's not really the Nvidia Shield at fault, that's the AndroidTV OS. It's the same situation regardless of the device, whether it's built into the TV or on a standalone pricey device like the Shield. Interesting that Apple is paying Google so much for the ad space, though. I guess it's a win-win for them in a case like this where they either convince you to subscribe to their service, or annoy you into buying their own device.
The thing you're actually paying for with the Shield specifically are the other capabilities beyond the OS, like the insanely good upscaling technology. It's good enough that I regret buying an AndroidTV because the Shield could have probably handled everything better with the exact same interface on the front. Then again, I specifically went for the AndroidTV because Samsung's OS and LG's OS are both so much more terrible and (at least with Samsung) much more intrusive ads.
IIRC you also have the ability to make the home button go to your apps instead of the appleTV app (where those suggestions come up), so you don't even have to see that if you don't want to.
IIRC you also have the ability to make the home button go to your apps instead of the appleTV app (where those suggestions come up), so you don't even have to see that if you don't want to.
What about a router? One that advertised itself as the preferred/default DNS instead of the ISP's DNS servers? Could plug it into your existing router then just connect all the devices to the...
What about a router? One that advertised itself as the preferred/default DNS instead of the ISP's DNS servers? Could plug it into your existing router then just connect all the devices to the adblocking network.
Right, you've nailed the issue. Yes, you can have a router which includes DNS filtering technology, but that's precisely the configuration DoH is designed to get around. ISPs and governments...
Right, you've nailed the issue. Yes, you can have a router which includes DNS filtering technology, but that's precisely the configuration DoH is designed to get around. ISPs and governments filtering or monitoring DNS look just the same as you doing so on your own network.
No matter how you set up the network, Chrome and Firefox will ignore those settings unless you do something "technical" to either turn off DoH or run your own DoH server and configure that.
Any router can be easily configured to use whatever DNS you want. There are online ad/tracker blocking DNS servers available for people who don't want to set up a Pi-Hole. I don't think it gets...
Any router can be easily configured to use whatever DNS you want. There are online ad/tracker blocking DNS servers available for people who don't want to set up a Pi-Hole.
I don't think it gets any more turnkey than that without becoming a security liability for most users. I would recommend people interested take only 10 minutes to read up on what a DNS is and how to set it on your router. It's not hard, and having a very basic understanding of what it does will make troubleshooting problems with it considerably easier down the road.
Depending on the router you have, you might be able to force it to redirect all DNS traffic into your own DNS like Pi-hole, but it only takes a DNS-over-HTTPS to work around that, too.
Depending on the router you have, you might be able to force it to redirect all DNS traffic into your own DNS like Pi-hole, but it only takes a DNS-over-HTTPS to work around that, too.
Pi-Hole is actually really turn-key, you probably shouldn't be intimidated by it. Installation is pretty much running one command and changing a setting through your router's web interface, and...
Pi-Hole is actually really turn-key, you probably shouldn't be intimidated by it. Installation is pretty much running one command and changing a setting through your router's web interface, and then you should almost never have to touch it.
I've had one running for years now and have only ever needed to do anything with it a handful of times, and it's never been very technical even when I do. It very, very rarely breaks a random site, and then all I ever do is open the web interface in a browser, log in, and click the thing to disable it for X minutes. I don't think I've ever done anything other than install it and temporarily disable it.
It's really turn-key in and of itself but modern browsers, and increasingly a lot of embedded devices, are starting to use DoH to get around this kind of thing. You'll have to do something...
It's really turn-key in and of itself but modern browsers, and increasingly a lot of embedded devices, are starting to use DoH to get around this kind of thing. You'll have to do something "technical" to actually direct those devices to use your PiHole server.
Look into different launcher apps for your shield TV. You can set one of those as your home screen and then you won't have to see the ads. I hear ATV Launcher is good but I haven't used it myself.
Look into different launcher apps for your shield TV. You can set one of those as your home screen and then you won't have to see the ads. I hear ATV Launcher is good but I haven't used it myself.
Is there a reason you couldn't just completely unplug your TV from the internet and rely on external devices for content? This is what I do with my TVs and it hasn't been a problem at all....
Is there a reason you couldn't just completely unplug your TV from the internet and rely on external devices for content?
This is what I do with my TVs and it hasn't been a problem at all.
Projectors have their own problems (poor HDR support, lots of latency, low brightness, bulbs that need replacing). They are something to thoroughly research to make sure they fully meet your needs before jumping in.
It's not all that uncommon for TVs these days to get software updates that actually improve the display in one way or another, like improving HDR accuracy or enabling high refresh rate modes. So...
It's not all that uncommon for TVs these days to get software updates that actually improve the display in one way or another, like improving HDR accuracy or enabling high refresh rate modes. So there are actual upsides to keeping your smart TV connected to the internet.
That's pretty much what I do. I have to keep the TV remote around to power on the TV, otherwise CEC breaks entirely. Once the system is on though I can control everything else via my stereo. It's...
That's pretty much what I do. I have to keep the TV remote around to power on the TV, otherwise CEC breaks entirely. Once the system is on though I can control everything else via my stereo. It's still a janky setup and a usability downgrade from their 9-year-old, lower-end smart TV.
Also keep in mind that going forward with all these BLE mesh implementations, you soon won't be able to keep your TV from connecting to the internet at all. BLE mesh might not have bandwidth for video signal, but it sure does for usage data.
And at the end of the day, if gaming has to be relegated to a monitor to get a better TV experience so be it.
I don't think there is anything in the BLE mesh specification that requires devices to share an internet connection for free with no security/authentication in place. Giving random devices access...
I don't think there is anything in the BLE mesh specification that requires devices to share an internet connection for free with no security/authentication in place. Giving random devices access to your host network would be a security disaster, and the data collection potential would be the least of our concerns there.
That doesn't mean it can't be done. BLE mesh could just be considered an extension of the regular internet, you only need 1 bridge and data can flow both ways. Amazon Sidewalk is one such...
I don't think there is anything in the BLE mesh specification that requires devices to share an internet connection for free with no security/authentication in place.
That doesn't mean it can't be done. BLE mesh could just be considered an extension of the regular internet, you only need 1 bridge and data can flow both ways. Amazon Sidewalk is one such implementation, already live. It wouldn't be hard for next-gen TV's to hook into this to send this analytic data until it hits the desired destination, no user approval required.
Eh, unless they start soldering their wireless chips onto the board, it will almost always be possible for a tinkerer to crack open the plastic and just rip out the wireless chip. Thats what I did.
Eh, unless they start soldering their wireless chips onto the board, it will almost always be possible for a tinkerer to crack open the plastic and just rip out the wireless chip. Thats what I did.
Last TV we bought we deliberately waited until we saw one listed on an estate sale. Now I have a 65" flatscreen LG TV that is dumb as a rock, it just displays whatever signal I shove at it. Love...
Last TV we bought we deliberately waited until we saw one listed on an estate sale. Now I have a 65" flatscreen LG TV that is dumb as a rock, it just displays whatever signal I shove at it. Love it. If it ever breaks I would probably pay more than we bought it for to fix it ($500 used).
I used to use a 40" monitor as a TV. The main issue I had was with input switching. I used some cheap Chinese HDMI input selector and it never quite worked right. These days I'm using a much...
I used to use a 40" monitor as a TV. The main issue I had was with input switching. I used some cheap Chinese HDMI input selector and it never quite worked right. These days I'm using a much larger Samsung smart TV. It's absolutely not perfect. It needs a hard reboot every couple months. And occasionally it's a bit laggy after waking up. But I think it's been pretty good to me given the price and panel quality. I would prefer a dumber device hooked up to the least creepy discrete Android TV machine, though.
The problem is most people don't care and just want the cheapest TV. Subsidizing through ads brings down the price a lot.
These "dumb" displays seem considerably more expensive than regular TVs. Wouldn't it be easier to just...not connect a "smart" TV to the internet? Doing this has never caused me any problems.
These "dumb" displays seem considerably more expensive than regular TVs. Wouldn't it be easier to just...not connect a "smart" TV to the internet? Doing this has never caused me any problems.
Per the HN discussion, many peoples tvs have apparently connected themselves to the internet without prompting/permission. The best scenario seems to be to simply use a piHole to manage traffic...
Per the HN discussion, many peoples tvs have apparently connected themselves to the internet without prompting/permission. The best scenario seems to be to simply use a piHole to manage traffic and look for a brand that doesn't route its traffic over a critical service's IP.
I've seen that discussion, but little evidence was provided to actually back up this claim. There were also people in that discussion saying that TV's can connect to the internet through an...
I've seen that discussion, but little evidence was provided to actually back up this claim.
There were also people in that discussion saying that TV's can connect to the internet through an internet connected device via HDMI. The HDMI spec does support that, but hardware capable of using this feature is basically nonexistent.
I'm skeptical, because the engineering cost of circumventing user mitigations against tracking are a low value proposition to the business in this case. 99% of users just connect their TV to the internet and think nothing of it. For the remaining 1%, you have to hope that their TV is within range of an insecure WiFi network. This is an increasingly rare occurrence in residential areas. You are spending time and money implementing a feature to capture data from a fraction of 1% of your users. On top of this, we have to factor in the fact that these users cannot (and are not) using any of the built-in smart TV features. This reduces the amount of data you can effectively collect from them, and it means you cannot serve them advertisements. Your only revenue stream is selling what little data you are clandestinely harvesting over public wifi.
If I still wasn't comfortable though, I would probably just take the back panel off my TV and disconnect the WiFi antenna. There are too many downsides that often come with the "digital signage" displays that people are recommending. They aren't meant for consumer use, and often lack consumer-oriented features that you might actually want to use (like ALLM, VRR, content-specific picture modes, game modes, what have you)
I know this is anectdotal, but I once saw almost 10k failed connection attempts in one hour the same day I got a vizio. My suspicion has always been that the TV tried a short wordlist on my...
I know this is anectdotal, but I once saw almost 10k failed connection attempts in one hour the same day I got a vizio. My suspicion has always been that the TV tried a short wordlist on my network to connect. It could have been a coincidence, of course, but they stopped after I opened it up and removed the wireless board.
TBH, I have no proof. it very well could have been an enterprising wardriver or a script kiddie neighbor who just got lucky with their timing. Besides, I have no recording of the incident other...
TBH, I have no proof. it very well could have been an enterprising wardriver or a script kiddie neighbor who just got lucky with their timing. Besides, I have no recording of the incident other than my own memory. I was stupid and didnt save the logs.
An older post where I describe my experiences with Vizio since they started this crap.
Update on my setup since then:
I hate this TV. Since writing those last posts I despise this TV even more and I'm kinda off TVs. My next TV will just be a dumb projector for my PC and stereo.
I’m sick of this kind of thing too. I bought a Shield TV as a smart attachment to get around my TV’s nonsense and now its homescreen is inescapably filled with ads. I feel like I need uBlock for my entire network but don’t have the knowhow to properly administrate a Pi-hole.
Is there something like the Pi-hole, but turnkey and usable by non-techy people? Maybe a particular router I can buy? I’d gladly throw my money at something that can block ads across my whole network and keep all my devices from phoning home.
I think the Apple TV is the only streaming device that does not place ads anywhere in the OS.
The top section of the home screen will show suggested content from the apps you place in the top row and that is it. I wouldn't consider those ads, since nobody paid to place them there, and it's usually filled with whatever shows I'm in-progress on.
I also noticed with my Pi-Hole that the devices is much less chatty with suspicious domains than my Roku and Shield were.
AndroidTV does something similar as well, though it also has recommendations from apps you're not subscribed to (ironically, Apple TV is the biggest one there).
Those are paid for, and a big reason why I ditched my Shield TV. Also they kept making the home screen layout worse and worse. I like the Apple TVs simple grid of icons.
I understand ads on a heavily cost-subsidized device like a fire TV or a Roku, but an Nvidia Shield costs more an Apple TV 4k. It should not ship with ads or detailed tracking.
That's not really the Nvidia Shield at fault, that's the AndroidTV OS. It's the same situation regardless of the device, whether it's built into the TV or on a standalone pricey device like the Shield. Interesting that Apple is paying Google so much for the ad space, though. I guess it's a win-win for them in a case like this where they either convince you to subscribe to their service, or annoy you into buying their own device.
The thing you're actually paying for with the Shield specifically are the other capabilities beyond the OS, like the insanely good upscaling technology. It's good enough that I regret buying an AndroidTV because the Shield could have probably handled everything better with the exact same interface on the front. Then again, I specifically went for the AndroidTV because Samsung's OS and LG's OS are both so much more terrible and (at least with Samsung) much more intrusive ads.
IIRC you also have the ability to make the home button go to your apps instead of the appleTV app (where those suggestions come up), so you don't even have to see that if you don't want to.
Unfortunately, thanks to the way devices and browsers pick up DNS settings (which is how PiHole does its blocking), that's not really possible.
What about a router? One that advertised itself as the preferred/default DNS instead of the ISP's DNS servers? Could plug it into your existing router then just connect all the devices to the adblocking network.
Right, you've nailed the issue. Yes, you can have a router which includes DNS filtering technology, but that's precisely the configuration DoH is designed to get around. ISPs and governments filtering or monitoring DNS look just the same as you doing so on your own network.
No matter how you set up the network, Chrome and Firefox will ignore those settings unless you do something "technical" to either turn off DoH or run your own DoH server and configure that.
Any router can be easily configured to use whatever DNS you want. There are online ad/tracker blocking DNS servers available for people who don't want to set up a Pi-Hole.
I don't think it gets any more turnkey than that without becoming a security liability for most users. I would recommend people interested take only 10 minutes to read up on what a DNS is and how to set it on your router. It's not hard, and having a very basic understanding of what it does will make troubleshooting problems with it considerably easier down the road.
Depending on the router you have, you might be able to force it to redirect all DNS traffic into your own DNS like Pi-hole, but it only takes a DNS-over-HTTPS to work around that, too.
Pi-Hole is actually really turn-key, you probably shouldn't be intimidated by it. Installation is pretty much running one command and changing a setting through your router's web interface, and then you should almost never have to touch it.
I've had one running for years now and have only ever needed to do anything with it a handful of times, and it's never been very technical even when I do. It very, very rarely breaks a random site, and then all I ever do is open the web interface in a browser, log in, and click the thing to disable it for X minutes. I don't think I've ever done anything other than install it and temporarily disable it.
It's really turn-key in and of itself but modern browsers, and increasingly a lot of embedded devices, are starting to use DoH to get around this kind of thing. You'll have to do something "technical" to actually direct those devices to use your PiHole server.
Look into different launcher apps for your shield TV. You can set one of those as your home screen and then you won't have to see the ads. I hear ATV Launcher is good but I haven't used it myself.
Is there a reason you couldn't just completely unplug your TV from the internet and rely on external devices for content?
This is what I do with my TVs and it hasn't been a problem at all.
Projectors have their own problems (poor HDR support, lots of latency, low brightness, bulbs that need replacing). They are something to thoroughly research to make sure they fully meet your needs before jumping in.
It's not all that uncommon for TVs these days to get software updates that actually improve the display in one way or another, like improving HDR accuracy or enabling high refresh rate modes. So there are actual upsides to keeping your smart TV connected to the internet.
That's pretty much what I do. I have to keep the TV remote around to power on the TV, otherwise CEC breaks entirely. Once the system is on though I can control everything else via my stereo. It's still a janky setup and a usability downgrade from their 9-year-old, lower-end smart TV.
Also keep in mind that going forward with all these BLE mesh implementations, you soon won't be able to keep your TV from connecting to the internet at all. BLE mesh might not have bandwidth for video signal, but it sure does for usage data.
And at the end of the day, if gaming has to be relegated to a monitor to get a better TV experience so be it.
I don't think there is anything in the BLE mesh specification that requires devices to share an internet connection for free with no security/authentication in place. Giving random devices access to your host network would be a security disaster, and the data collection potential would be the least of our concerns there.
That doesn't mean it can't be done. BLE mesh could just be considered an extension of the regular internet, you only need 1 bridge and data can flow both ways. Amazon Sidewalk is one such implementation, already live. It wouldn't be hard for next-gen TV's to hook into this to send this analytic data until it hits the desired destination, no user approval required.
Rob Braxman is a bit sensationalist, but covers the BLE mesh topic pretty well.
Eh, unless they start soldering their wireless chips onto the board, it will almost always be possible for a tinkerer to crack open the plastic and just rip out the wireless chip. Thats what I did.
Last TV we bought we deliberately waited until we saw one listed on an estate sale. Now I have a 65" flatscreen LG TV that is dumb as a rock, it just displays whatever signal I shove at it. Love it. If it ever breaks I would probably pay more than we bought it for to fix it ($500 used).
I used to use a 40" monitor as a TV. The main issue I had was with input switching. I used some cheap Chinese HDMI input selector and it never quite worked right. These days I'm using a much larger Samsung smart TV. It's absolutely not perfect. It needs a hard reboot every couple months. And occasionally it's a bit laggy after waking up. But I think it's been pretty good to me given the price and panel quality. I would prefer a dumber device hooked up to the least creepy discrete Android TV machine, though.
The problem is most people don't care and just want the cheapest TV. Subsidizing through ads brings down the price a lot.
This is yet another data point of how big of a business selling data is.
HN had a conversation about 4k Dumb TVs the other day some folk here might be interested in: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29382643
These "dumb" displays seem considerably more expensive than regular TVs. Wouldn't it be easier to just...not connect a "smart" TV to the internet? Doing this has never caused me any problems.
Per the HN discussion, many peoples tvs have apparently connected themselves to the internet without prompting/permission. The best scenario seems to be to simply use a piHole to manage traffic and look for a brand that doesn't route its traffic over a critical service's IP.
I've seen that discussion, but little evidence was provided to actually back up this claim.
There were also people in that discussion saying that TV's can connect to the internet through an internet connected device via HDMI. The HDMI spec does support that, but hardware capable of using this feature is basically nonexistent.
I'm skeptical, because the engineering cost of circumventing user mitigations against tracking are a low value proposition to the business in this case. 99% of users just connect their TV to the internet and think nothing of it. For the remaining 1%, you have to hope that their TV is within range of an insecure WiFi network. This is an increasingly rare occurrence in residential areas. You are spending time and money implementing a feature to capture data from a fraction of 1% of your users. On top of this, we have to factor in the fact that these users cannot (and are not) using any of the built-in smart TV features. This reduces the amount of data you can effectively collect from them, and it means you cannot serve them advertisements. Your only revenue stream is selling what little data you are clandestinely harvesting over public wifi.
If I still wasn't comfortable though, I would probably just take the back panel off my TV and disconnect the WiFi antenna. There are too many downsides that often come with the "digital signage" displays that people are recommending. They aren't meant for consumer use, and often lack consumer-oriented features that you might actually want to use (like ALLM, VRR, content-specific picture modes, game modes, what have you)
How does this work if you have a wireless network with WPA or other security?
The claim was that the TV's just connect to any unsecured wireless network they can find and send data that way.
I know this is anectdotal, but I once saw almost 10k failed connection attempts in one hour the same day I got a vizio. My suspicion has always been that the TV tried a short wordlist on my network to connect. It could have been a coincidence, of course, but they stopped after I opened it up and removed the wireless board.
Interesting. You could probably frame that as a violation of the CFAA (if they succeeded).
TBH, I have no proof. it very well could have been an enterprising wardriver or a script kiddie neighbor who just got lucky with their timing. Besides, I have no recording of the incident other than my own memory. I was stupid and didnt save the logs.
Wow. That sucks!
Some people said the devices found other, open networks and connected to those instead iirc.