A simple fix for exemplary tags - only give it to posts you disagree with
There's been a fair amount of discussion lately about the way Exemplary tags are used. Speaking only for myself, it seems like they're increasingly being used as a "super-agree" button rather than a "this post is really good" tag. That always has been (and always will be) a problem, but I think it's been getting worse - particularly when threads turn argumentative.
That's not good. It makes contentious threads more contentious and it contributes to polarization -- I've seen users explicitly say that it feels like a slap in the face to see a poorly-constructed post get tagged "exemplary" for what seems more likely to be ideological reasons than the actual quality of the thing.
There's an easy fix for all this. Not a technical fix, but a cultural one: if the majority of us resolve to only give exemplary tags to people we disagree with, but who deserve it anyway because they are posting compassionately, cogently, coherently, or whatever else we think constitutes exemplary behaviour, it will improve the discourse immeasurably.
I'm not saying that needs to be (or should be) a hard-and-fast rule. But as a general principle like "don't be an asshole," I think "save exemplary tags for posts you don't agree with, but which deserve it anyway" will do a lot to resolve the issues we're seeing. It shifts the reward signal from "demonstrate ideological alignment" to "write posts so good and so fair that even your opponents like them."
I've caught myself giving the tag to opinions I agree with for something along the lines of "finally, someone's saying it." That is bad, it's exactly what polarizes the site, and I'm going to try not to do it any longer.
Hope you'll join me.
My whole post was about fostering better disagreements. I'm not going to get upset at you for disagreeing with me.
The Jefferson example is evocative. I get that your point is that erudition does not equate to rightness -- but things are so very, very rarely that black-and-white.
You should do as you like, of course. Just didn't want to leave a comment of that effort unreplied to.
As somewhat of a tangent. It is my personal believe that for a majority of people this is the case, many simply do not realize this and leave it to the reader to fill in the blanks. There are many times where I've had conversations with people where it is clear, to me anyway, that there is actually more context to what they are saying which they haven't arrived at yet themselves.
That's not to say that I automatically appreciate longer comments. For example, unstructured thought streams or comments that are just a practice in grandiloquent writing are my least favorite comments to encounter. Both are difficult to parse and certainly the latter is often not written to be read but to impress.
But, long comments where thought and care is put in their structure and the message I do appreciate. It gives me a better frame of reference to reply to if I am so inclined and in the end often lead to more efficiënt conversation in an online environment as it reduces the back and forth you otherwise get.
I like the idea, somewhat like the delta on r/changemyview, but broader in a 'I may not agree with it still but I see your point' kind of way. Can't say for others but I think I'll try using it that way.
Right. Sort of a "this post brings up the level of the website", regardless of whether you agree with it.
I try to minimize my own use for the exact same echo chamber creation reason you state, so I notice I barely use it at all. Your way would allow me to think about the intent and I might remember to use it more in the process.
While I don't disagree that exemplary tags being used just for posts or comments you agree with is the wrong way to use them, I'm wondering if their "misuse" has gotten to the point where it's potentially problematic enough that we need to agree on an unspoken community rule about them. My anecdotal experience isn't worth much as I haven't been going through all of the threads and seeing if comments with exemplary tags are meeting some arbitrary criteria, and I personally rarely even upvote comments, much less tag them as exemplary, but exemplary tags never seemed nearly as problematic or pervasive as, say, giving gold to a comment or post.
Just downplaying your concerns while offering no solutions of my own would be a bit of a dick move, so here's my suggestion: labeling a comment should also require you to reply to it, so some modicum of thought and effort must be put in at least. I wouldn't go so far as to highlight the user that actually gave the label since we probably don't want to reduce the amount of anonymity we currently have, but if you're the first or only one to reply then it wouldn't take a genius to connect the dots. With an upfront requirement like this though, it encourages the one giving out the label to provide context to it, and other users won't get into a virtual slap-fight with each other when someone inevitably uses it the "wrong" way according to them.
Sorry for my ignorance, but what exactly wrong with occasional using "exemplary" tag as super upvote?
We all different people and can have different opinions on what belongs to "exemplary" and what's not.
In general, nothing. If someone shares a knitting pattern or something that you think is pretty awesome, by all means, mark it exemplary.
I'm talking more about threads which are contentious or ideological. When you see two users having an argument, and it's getting increasingly acrimonious, and yet both of their posts all the way down have all been marked exemplary, clearly something in the system has gone badly wrong. That's a sign that people are marking posts exemplary because they conform to our ideology, and not necessarily because they're actually good.
If instead we had the cultural norm that we tried to only recognize when our opponents were acting in an exemplary fashion instead of when our allies were doing it, I think the tenor of a lot of this stuff could really change. You can see when two posters are trying to figure out something together instead of trying to win a debate for the audience. The more of that we have, the better this website is.
Thanks for explanation. Now it makes perfect sense.
I can even say that your comment is exemplary.
I think I already do this? If a comment makes me see something in a new way or it makes a previously difficult topic more accessible then I might click the label buttons.
There's already some effort required. When you click the Exemplary button it requires you to input some response to the author of the comment which only they can see. In the past I have clicked the button but not fully followed through with it because I realized that I didn't care enough or couldn't articulate praise well enough
Well that's news to me, I guess I haven't tagged anything as Exemplary yet then. It seems like making that response visible to everyone and not just the author would be the next logical step, if we did feel like we needed one extra thing for people to consider before tagging. With the size and relatively high level of respect (for an internet forum) of this community though, I don't think that change should be needed anytime soon.
I don't think they should be. One response I received was a little more personal than just "thank you for your opinion", and while not identifying of that person, I'm almost certain it would not have been given if they knew that it would be visible. It's a safety thing and, given the context of the thread I'm thinking of, that safety was a feature.
I know you don't think it needs changing right now (you say as much), but I don't think it's as simple as just "make it all public".
Yeah I think how it currently works is already pretty optimized for the fine line between forcing people to noisily (as the site is optimized for long-form comments) comment their praise publicly vs it being just a second upvote button.