10 votes

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21 comments

  1. [6]
    hungariantoast (edited ) Link
    (Perhaps a "moderator" who has the ability to edit tags can add tags to this topic?) Certain users, aside from Deimos, can edit the titles and tags of topics. There is no indicator as to whether...

    (Perhaps a "moderator" who has the ability to edit tags can add tags to this topic?)

    Certain users, aside from Deimos, can edit the titles and tags of topics. There is no indicator as to whether or not someone has this ability, except for the topic log in the sidebar.

    This isn't how things are always going to work though, and the current "moderators" (which are really just normal users with extra powers here and there) are hand appointed by Deimos out of necessity, since the actual moderation system (trust based, real neato, should read about it) hasn't been implemented yet.

    Basically, in the future, your participation in a group or subgroup will eventually allow you to gain moderation and curation abilities, such as editing titles.

    And yes, there is still a lot to discuss about the idea, and I would imagine that its implementation is going to be in the distant future.

    How is not having a downvote button better if people can just tag anything they want as "fakenews" or change the title whenever they want?

    Since only certain users can do this, and they're publicly held accountable for it in the topic log in the sidebar, abusive moderation activities would lead to quick stripping of those abilities. If you have a question or concern about a moderation action, you always can (and I encourage you to) message the user who made the change and discuss it with them, politely.

    Furthermore, can people simply remove whatever post they don't care for on a sub?

    The only users who can remove topics outright are the submitter and Deimos as far as I know. I don't think any other user has been given (or will be given) that ability, though when the trust based moderation system does get implemented, it might be something that users with extremely high levels of trust can do in extreme situations.

    14 votes
    1. [5]
      OptimusKhan Link Parent
      Is there a public log of all the activity by the "normal users with extra powers"? While I am able to see the log on the side of the current topic, I think it would be very relevant to see that...

      Is there a public log of all the activity by the "normal users with extra powers"? While I am able to see the log on the side of the current topic, I think it would be very relevant to see that users activity across the site publicly. I also disagree with the reason for the change in the title, while it may seem like a small change it only further sparked discourse about one word in the title and detracted from the actual discussion.

      Ironically, this title is fake news. I'm going to fix it to "Trump smirks nods as Brazil’s far right president says they are united against LGBTQ people".

      IMHO, it seems like someone is putting more feeling into the change of title than they should. I could understand if the change was because the title was completely wrong about who was involved or if it had serious misspellings or dates or places. But to make a changed based on your own feelings towards a news outlet seems silly, especially when you are talking about the difference between a "smirk" and a "nod". a very slighted change in an attempt to call an article fake news.

      2 votes
      1. [3]
        Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
        No. All changes are topic-specific, and are displayed only in each topic's sidebar. The title was factually wrong. It needed to be changed. Smirking and nodding are different activities, and have...

        Is there a public log of all the activity by the "normal users with extra powers"?

        No. All changes are topic-specific, and are displayed only in each topic's sidebar.

        I also disagree with the reason for the change in the title,

        The title was factually wrong. It needed to be changed.

        especially when you are talking about the difference between a "smirk" and a "nod".

        Smirking and nodding are different activities, and have different connotations.

        a very slighted change in an attempt to call an article fake news.

        I called the title fake news, not the article.

        4 votes
        1. [2]
          OptimusKhan Link Parent
          I see you are the moderator in charge of semantics.

          I see you are the moderator in charge of semantics.

          1 vote
          1. Algernon_Asimov (edited ) Link Parent
            You should inform yourself about the site's philosophy regarding personal behaviour before making further remarks like this. You should also learn about comment labels. EDIT: Bugger! I forgot: I...

            You should inform yourself about the site's philosophy regarding personal behaviour before making further remarks like this. You should also learn about comment labels. EDIT: Bugger! I forgot: I haven't finished writing that section!

            7 votes
      2. dubteedub Link Parent
        No and to my knowledge there is no plan for a global public mod log. I submitted the post and was happy with the changes to the url and title to be more accurate and less biased. If I had the...

        Is there a public log of all the activity by the "normal users with extra powers"?

        No and to my knowledge there is no plan for a global public mod log.

        I also disagree with the reason for the change in the title, while it may seem like a small change it only further sparked discourse about one word in the title and detracted from the actual discussion.

        I submitted the post and was happy with the changes to the url and title to be more accurate and less biased. If I had the ability to modify either after the fact I would have given the feedback.

        1 vote
  2. [10]
    Deimos Link
    If someone misuses the ability to change tags or edit titles, I (or someone else) fixes what they did, and I take that ability away from them. This is a core principle of Tildes: Trust people, but...

    How is not having a downvote button better if people can just tag anything they want as "fakenews" or change the title whenever they want?

    If someone misuses the ability to change tags or edit titles, I (or someone else) fixes what they did, and I take that ability away from them. This is a core principle of Tildes: Trust people, but punish abusers

    Furthermore, can people simply remove whatever post they don't care for on a sub?

    I am the only one that can remove posts right now (and this probably won't change until the site is much larger).

    12 votes
    1. [9]
      OptimusKhan Link Parent
      You don't see any problems with people just changing links on the site and title of post when they like? So I guess if I post something I should expect these special people to change my title and...

      You don't see any problems with people just changing links on the site and title of post when they like? So I guess if I post something I should expect these special people to change my title and link as they see fit?

      1. [2]
        Deimos Link Parent
        Nope, we've been doing it for almost a year and it's been totally fine. You've been here for about a day, so I don't think you have much perspective other than "this isn't how reddit works". This...

        Nope, we've been doing it for almost a year and it's been totally fine. You've been here for about a day, so I don't think you have much perspective other than "this isn't how reddit works". This isn't reddit, don't try to look at everything here through that lens.

        11 votes
        1. OptimusKhan Link Parent
          I never once mentioned reddit. But thanks for putting words in my mouth instead of hearing my concern.

          I never once mentioned reddit. But thanks for putting words in my mouth instead of hearing my concern.

          1 vote
      2. [2]
        orangse Link Parent
        I get the vibe that this site is less about free speech and more about fostering a community with quality content. I'd recommend reading https://docs.tildes.net/overall-goals. I'd say that heavy...

        I get the vibe that this site is less about free speech and more about fostering a community with quality content. I'd recommend reading https://docs.tildes.net/overall-goals. I'd say that heavy moderation is kind of a necessity to these goals, but thats just me.

        11 votes
        1. OptimusKhan Link Parent
          I read over that when I joined, and the edit seemed so casual to me, I figure it must happen often. This is more of a "curated news site" and we just have to "trust" the curators. It's not all...

          I read over that when I joined, and the edit seemed so casual to me, I figure it must happen often. This is more of a "curated news site" and we just have to "trust" the curators. It's not all bad, just seem like a ripe opportunity to censor or influence.

      3. [4]
        dubteedub Link Parent
        No, because the very few tines it has happened reasonabke explanations have been given. If the ability were being abused then deimos has made it clear that action would be taken against them. I...

        You don't see any problems with people just changing links on the site and title of post when they like?

        No, because the very few tines it has happened reasonabke explanations have been given.

        If the ability were being abused then deimos has made it clear that action would be taken against them.

        So I guess if I post something I should expect these special people to change my title and link as they see fit?

        I have submitted hundreds of topics here (i believe only deimos and algernon have posted more than me) and I have only had two titles or urls changed out of all the posts made to my recollection. That seems entirely reasonable to me.

        5 votes
        1. [3]
          OptimusKhan Link Parent
          I think that is my issue, is that the edit seems so casual as if it happens all the time. I get you guys have been here longer than me so I will just shut up now, since thats the vibe im getting.

          I think that is my issue, is that the edit seems so casual as if it happens all the time. I get you guys have been here longer than me so I will just shut up now, since thats the vibe im getting.

          1 vote
          1. [2]
            dubteedub Link Parent
            I dont want it to seem like we are piling onto you, I think we are all passionate people that enjoy this site and want it to succeed. I also dont think there is any harm in asking questions here...

            I dont want it to seem like we are piling onto you, I think we are all passionate people that enjoy this site and want it to succeed.

            I also dont think there is any harm in asking questions here to understand why certain decisions have been made.

            8 votes
            1. OptimusKhan Link Parent
              I get the feeling discussion is not welcome if it comes to anything about how you guys run the site. Yeah I guess I should not have posted something being so new, since I have no perspective.

              I get the feeling discussion is not welcome if it comes to anything about how you guys run the site.

              Nope, we've been doing it for almost a year and it's been totally fine. You've been here for about a day, so I don't think you have much perspective [...]

              Yeah I guess I should not have posted something being so new, since I have no perspective.

  3. Deimos Link
    The questions have been answered, and this has rapidly just turned into bickering, so I'm going to lock it.

    The questions have been answered, and this has rapidly just turned into bickering, so I'm going to lock it.

    10 votes
  4. dubteedub Link
    Only a handful of users have additional moderator like powers on the site at the moment, mostly topic editing and moving post from one space to another. An even smaller subset can edit post...

    Only a handful of users have additional moderator like powers on the site at the moment, mostly topic editing and moving post from one space to another. An even smaller subset can edit post titles. I think only deimos may be able to edit links.

    This is all based on a trust system and while limited now to certain handpicked users / volunteers, will grow to more as Tildes future trust system is implemented.

    If anyone abused their moderator powers they would have them revoked.

    The topic log also helps keep folks accountable.

    7 votes
  5. [3]
    Algernon_Asimov Link
    @Deimos is the only moderator on this site (he's also the creator and founder and our god). He has given three curator-type abilities to some other users who he hand-picked: add/change/delete post...

    @Deimos is the only moderator on this site (he's also the creator and founder and our god).

    He has given three curator-type abilities to some other users who he hand-picked:

    • add/change/delete post tags;

    • move topics (posts) from one group to another;

    • edit titles.

    He initially did this in this old thread. I don't know if or how he has given these abilities out since then.

    My understanding is that only very few people can edit titles (I know of only two, apart from Deimos), some people can move topics, and more people can change tags.

    Those of us who have these curatorial abilities know that we have to behave. As Deimos said in that post where he gave the powers out:

    Here's how it works:

    1. I trust you, and give you access to more powerful tools.

    2. If you abuse it, I take the tools away, and don't trust you any more.

    If we abuse these powers, they will be taken away. I, for one, use them very carefully, knowing this. I consider these abilities a privilege, rather than right. (I do also have some previous moderating experience, so it's not like I don't know what I'm doing.)

    In future, the people with these curatorial powers will automatically arise through the proposed trust system.

    And, as Deimos explained in that thread, you can see all changes in a topic's Topic Log in the sidebar (with the proviso that all data on Tildes is stored for only 30 days, so changes more than 30 days ago will no longer be visible).


    about the semantics of a word used in an article which led to someone calling it fake news

    I said the title was fake news, not the article. And, I felt that usage of "fake news" was ironically appropriate, considering that there was a mention of fake news in the press conference being discussed.

    and devolves right into right vs left politics

    There was no political discussion there.

    and #fakenews tags being added.

    Rather than adding a "fake news" tag to a topic, I would send a message to Deimos advising him that the topic is fake news, so he could remove it. Fake news has no place here.

    5 votes
    1. [2]
      OptimusKhan Link Parent
      I suppose in time we will see how these curators handle stuff. And the regular users of the site will just have to "trust" those curators that are picked for us....

      I suppose in time we will see how these curators handle stuff. And the regular users of the site will just have to "trust" those curators that are picked for us.

      https://docs.tildes.net/mechanics-future#concerns

      To be clear, I recognize that this is a dangerous type of system to implement, with the distinct risk of creating "power users" that have far too much influence. [...] We don't want to end up incentivizing the wrong types of behavior by creating systems that, for example, give more influence to the most popular users instead of the highest quality ones.

      1. Algernon_Asimov Link Parent
        Well, this current version of the curation/moderation system has been in place for about 7 months (more than half of Tildes' lifetime), and the site hasn't imploded yet. It's also important to...

        I suppose in time we will see how these curators handle stuff.

        Well, this current version of the curation/moderation system has been in place for about 7 months (more than half of Tildes' lifetime), and the site hasn't imploded yet.

        It's also important to point out that this current system is a manual work-around. Tildes is still in development and the proposed automated trust system is a long way off (the "to do" list for Tildes is quite lengthy!). In future, curators and moderators will arise automatically, and their actions will be monitored via a mixture of algorithms and humans - rather than everything relying on @Deimos' ability to see what's happening and make judgements about what he sees.

        In the meantime, if you ever have concerns about something you see in a Topic Log - a title change, a group move, a tag edit - you are more than welcome to send a direct message to @Deimos. In my experience, he is open to receiving "reports" via direct message, in the absence of an automated reporting system (another thing on the "to do" list!).

        7 votes