25 votes

Should clicking an article on Tildes be a prerequisite for posting a comment in the associated thread?

This thought was brought to you/sponsored by my perception that there's an increasing number of comments on Tildes that attempt to "answer" questions posed in the titles of posts, but don't necessarily demonstrate that the user has read the article before commenting. I won't link specific comments, but I've noticed a fair bit of it as of late. I get that those titles bait people into voicing their opinion, but often it's at the detriment of overall discussion. Should a prerequisite of clicking the actual link in question be a requirement before the user is allowed to post a top level comment? Or perhaps a cooldown period of entering a thread versus commenting may help?

The goal here would be to disincentivise the posting of "driveby" or similarly reductive comments that often don't demonstrate nuance or knowledge that is conveyed in the associated article. Sure, we can't ever know if the user has actually read the article, but it's not designed to be a foolproof strategy, just a discouraging one.

There's a few ways this could be implemented, probably via the utilization of a small bit of javascript that toggle's a user's reading state for a particular post. Thoughts?

Just to clarify since I've edited this post: I mean top-level comments only. Replies are more likely to be in response to the parent comment, rather than the title and wouldn't be affected by this proposal.

85 comments

  1. [7]
    Whom
    (edited )
    Link
    My main objection to this is that many articles are there for a topic but the article itself isn't super necessary. For instance "Jeffrey Epstein Commits Suicide at Manhattan Jail" isn't something...

    My main objection to this is that many articles are there for a topic but the article itself isn't super necessary. For instance "Jeffrey Epstein Commits Suicide at Manhattan Jail" isn't something where the specific link matters much. Most articles on this subject will be working off of the same facts and saying more or less the same thing. Hell, a lot of us probably read about it elsewhere first, then came to Tildes to discuss it. The article here acts more as a "this is what we're talking about, and if you don't know then read this" than "let's discuss the content of this article."

    There's other instances where this would be awkward too, like a link to a song...if I know that song, why do I need to click on the link? This post in ~anime is not even in English, the title and the comment are the important parts. There's a bunch of examples like that.

    I see the problem you describe and would also like to fix it, but we'd need a way to separate the content-centric article from the simple news points or other exceptions. Maybe an option chosen by the OP? I'm not sure.

    29 votes
    1. DanBC
      Link Parent
      Jesus fucking christ no the Epstein article is something that people must read before commenting, because there's some dispute about whether he was on suicide watch or not and most people have no...

      Jesus fucking christ no the Epstein article is something that people must read before commenting, because there's some dispute about whether he was on suicide watch or not and most people have no clue what suicide watch actually means.

      This means epstein threads are full of people saying it's impossible to kill yourself while on suicide watch (clearly untrue), and that he definitely was on suicide watch (he may not have been), and so he must have been murdered (conspiracy theory bollocks).

      I come to Tildes to get away from people who don't know what they're talking about but who feel the need to blather on anyway, and it's somewhat disquieting to find so many of those people here now.

      Please please read the fucking articles before commenting.

      18 votes
    2. [3]
      Algernon_Asimov
      Link Parent
      But different articles will say different things about the same topic. How do you know what this article is saying if you haven't read it? What if it's one of those biassed "news" sites that has a...

      The article here acts more as a "this is what we're talking about, and if you don't know then read this" than "let's discuss the content of this article."

      But different articles will say different things about the same topic. How do you know what this article is saying if you haven't read it? What if it's one of those biassed "news" sites that has a slanted take on events? How will you know if you haven't read it?

      And not all articles here are news-oriented. Many articles are, and should be, about other subjects, from astronomy to history, from football to knitting.

      There's other instances where this would be awkward too, like a link to a song...if I know that song, why do I need to click on the link?

      Is it a remix? A cover version? A longer cut?

      This post in ~anime is not even in English, the title and the comment are the important parts.

      Well, that's a badly formatted post. Why is the central information buried in a comment? This should have been a text post with the information presented in a text box.

      5 votes
      1. [2]
        j3n
        Link Parent
        That's exactly the point. For something like the most popular post about Epstein's suicide, you're not discussing the specific article linked, but the event itself.

        But different articles will say different things about the same topic. How do you know what this article is saying if you haven't read it?

        That's exactly the point. For something like the most popular post about Epstein's suicide, you're not discussing the specific article linked, but the event itself.

        1 vote
        1. Algernon_Asimov
          Link Parent
          Taking this a step further, we don't even need to post an article to prompt discussion. Someone could just post a simple prompt, like "Jeffrey Epstein's suicide. Discuss." or "Protests in Hong...

          For something like the most popular post about Epstein's suicide, you're not discussing the specific article linked, but the event itself.

          Taking this a step further, we don't even need to post an article to prompt discussion. Someone could just post a simple prompt, like "Jeffrey Epstein's suicide. Discuss." or "Protests in Hong Kong. Discuss." You go away, do your own research elsewhere, and then come back and discuss it here on Tildes.

          2 votes
    3. AugustusFerdinand
      Link Parent
      That article is actually a very specific example of why going to the article should be required as the comments are full of people thinking he was on suicide watch when he had been taken off of it...

      That article is actually a very specific example of why going to the article should be required as the comments are full of people thinking he was on suicide watch when he had been taken off of it already.

      3 votes
    4. emdash
      Link Parent
      I'd be willing to accept an alternative whereby a question mark in the title of a post was utilised as a signal (one of many signals) for an automated system to rank and potentially...

      I'd be willing to accept an alternative whereby a question mark in the title of a post was utilised as a signal (one of many signals) for an automated system to rank and potentially flag/de-emphasise comments that breached certain conditions, because I accept this proposal is not perfect.

  2. [3]
    JamesTeaKirk
    Link
    In my opinion this is a lot of work for something that is relatively benign. There are also a lot of people who do read the article and comment extremely low effort "noise" that (imo) brings less...

    In my opinion this is a lot of work for something that is relatively benign. There are also a lot of people who do read the article and comment extremely low effort "noise" that (imo) brings less to the table than a thoughtful comment from someone who only read the headline. I would say utilize comment tagging, point out their lack of contextual understanding, and/or ignore them.

    Edit: I also think putting a barrier up on discussion is a bad idea in general.

    23 votes
    1. emdash
      Link Parent
      Yeah the inverse situation I think needs work too, no doubt. I would love to see some automated script message/alert people to know when their comment was flagged as noise by the system to let...

      Yeah the inverse situation I think needs work too, no doubt. I would love to see some automated script message/alert people to know when their comment was flagged as noise by the system to let people know what they're doing is not okay. A spray-bottle-of-water-for-your-pet scenario, effectively.

      That being said, just because this proposal doesn't address that issue specifically, I wouldn't consider that a point against it.

      4 votes
  3. [5]
    unknown user
    Link
    I'd rather not have something this easy to circumvent. Unless a serious privacy breach, this is as good as DoNotTrack: anyone can click the link and come back. Also, what about those who disable...

    I'd rather not have something this easy to circumvent. Unless a serious privacy breach, this is as good as DoNotTrack: anyone can click the link and come back. Also, what about those who disable JS?

    This really sounds like bureaucracy TBH.

    14 votes
    1. [4]
      emdash
      Link Parent
      If you disable JS, to my knowledge you can't post comments on Tildes anyway. The MO is you should be able to read Tildes without JS enabled, but interaction does require some JS out of necessity....

      If you disable JS, to my knowledge you can't post comments on Tildes anyway. The MO is you should be able to read Tildes without JS enabled, but interaction does require some JS out of necessity. So, kind of a moot point.

      I don't know what you mean by "sounds like a bureaucracy", but I'd encourage you to interpret my suggestion as a good faith proposal intended to reinforce Tildes' ethos of being a high(ish) quality discussion site. I think all of us have positive intentions here.

      3 votes
      1. [2]
        unknown user
        Link Parent
        I am coming with positive intentions (sorry if wasn't obvious), what I meant with "bureaucracy" was that this would be essentially checking off some box and we have no real way of determining...

        I am coming with positive intentions (sorry if wasn't obvious), what I meant with "bureaucracy" was that this would be essentially checking off some box and we have no real way of determining whether or not the user actually read the article. When that's the case, I can't see how this will be effective.

        5 votes
        1. Wes
          Link Parent
          Perfect is the enemy of good. If it leads to even 30% more people reading articles before posting, that can still have a positive effect.

          Perfect is the enemy of good. If it leads to even 30% more people reading articles before posting, that can still have a positive effect.

          4 votes
      2. ubergeek
        Link Parent
        I don't think elinks has js enabled, but in post via it sometimes.

        I don't think elinks has js enabled, but in post via it sometimes.

  4. gpl
    Link
    No, this feels like a semi-technological solution to what would be a cultural problem on the site. We already have tools to disincentivize and hide low effort comments, like noise labels. Making...

    No, this feels like a semi-technological solution to what would be a cultural problem on the site. We already have tools to disincentivize and hide low effort comments, like noise labels. Making click through required wouldn’t do much to really stop people from making pointless comments in my opinion.

    13 votes
  5. [41]
    FatherGlucose
    (edited )
    Link
    I appreciate the sentiment behind this topic. Someone correct me if I'm wrong because web dev isn't my strong suite, but if we are to require users to click on the link before having the ability...

    I appreciate the sentiment behind this topic. Someone correct me if I'm wrong because web dev isn't my strong suite, but if we are to require users to click on the link before having the ability to comment on a topic, wouldn't that require Tildes to start tracking and storing our clicks to external sites posted as topics? That idea doesn't sit well in my stomach.

    JavaScript alone won't store your clicks, meaning you would have to click on the link everytime you happen to refresh the page unless cookies or something else is used to store your clicks.

    Edit: And if so, seeing how easily this barrier can be circumvented, I don't think it justifies the privacy cost that it requires.

    12 votes
    1. [34]
      cfabbro
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Yeah, this is honestly my biggest issue with the idea, although all the edge-cases are problematic as well. The intention behind it is good, and this very idea is something I actually proposed at...

      Yeah, this is honestly my biggest issue with the idea, although all the edge-cases are problematic as well. The intention behind it is good, and this very idea is something I actually proposed at one point before tildes.net was even live... but IIRC, ultimately the reason it was decided against was that any means of actually achieving it runs afoul of Tildes Privacy-By-Design philosophy. As a result, this feature would very likely have to be opt-in, which would completely negate its effectiveness, since users who can't even be bothered to read an article before commenting are unlikely to opt-in to something that would prevent them from being able to comment if they haven't.

      Not only that but as some others have pointed out; How much of a problem is this really? How often does this genuinely occur? And there already is a less intrusive and overbearing solution to this problem.... commenting and labeling.

      If you see someone made a comment that strongly hints at them not having even read an article (e.g. by completely misrepresenting it), simply say something about that (without being an asshole about it, of course). And if it's a completely off-base comment, label it offtopic and make a comment explaining why you did. And if it's so off-base as to add nothing to the discussion or potentially completely derail a topic, label it noise, or if egregious, label it malice with a message to Deimos as to why you think that is the case.

      11 votes
      1. [2]
        Eva
        Link Parent
        Solution that would solve the privacy problem & also possibly improve quality of conversation: Button you have to hit per-thread that allows you to comment two minutes after pressing. Not...

        Solution that would solve the privacy problem & also possibly improve quality of conversation:

        Button you have to hit per-thread that allows you to comment two minutes after pressing.

        Not personally in favour of it, but it doesn't seem like something impossible to get around while still granting user privacy.

        4 votes
        1. cfabbro
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          I am definitely not in favor of that either. It feels like such a huge overreaction to something that I am not entirely convinced is even really that big of a problem. It also feels like it's...

          I am definitely not in favor of that either. It feels like such a huge overreaction to something that I am not entirely convinced is even really that big of a problem. It also feels like it's punishing all your good-faith users because of the actions of a very small minority of bad-faith ones, which kind of goes against the whole "trust users but punish abusers" philosophy of the site, IMO.

          I do think forced timers between making comments may have potential for other things though. E.g. for deescalating arguments with something like a 24-48hr reply rate limit to threads that have been labeled by enough users as "bickering", or something like that

          5 votes
      2. [31]
        Algernon_Asimov
        Link Parent
        Today? Now? Not much. Tomorrow? Later? More often. Do you remember Reddit, where "not reading the article" was so common it became a stereotype? Is that really behaviour that we want to allow...

        How much of a problem is this really? How often does this genuinely occur?

        Today? Now? Not much.

        Tomorrow? Later? More often.

        Do you remember Reddit, where "not reading the article" was so common it became a stereotype? Is that really behaviour that we want to allow here?

        If you see someone made a comment that strongly hints at them not having even read an article (e.g. by completely misrepresenting it), simply say something about that (without being an asshole about it, of course).

        Thereby creating more off-topic noise.

        And if it's a completely off-base comment, label it offtopic and make a comment explaining why you did.

        Why address the symptom when we can address the cause?

        1 vote
        1. [29]
          cfabbro
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          A reply to noise isn't necessarily noise, especially when that reply potentially changes the offending person's behavior, thereby improving the situation in the future by helping foster a culture...

          Thereby creating more off-topic noise.

          A reply to noise isn't necessarily noise, especially when that reply potentially changes the offending person's behavior, thereby improving the situation in the future by helping foster a culture where it's made clear that behavior isn't acceptable.

          Why address the symptom when we can address the cause?

          Because: See the comment I was replying to as well as the entire first part of my comment. It's practically impossible to ensure people have read an article before commenting without tracking their clicks, which means this feature would absolutely have to be opt-in, which completely negates its effectiveness. And even then, there are so many edge-cases as to render any system that prevents people from commenting before reading something more of a nuisance than an actual solution to that problem, IMO. And furthermore, any such system would be absolutely trivial to circumvent without making it even more intrusive.

          5 votes
          1. [28]
            Algernon_Asimov
            Link Parent
            If you're discussing another user's behaviour, that isn't relevant to an article about the latest mass shooting in the USA or a video about how Roman armies obtained their supplies. It's noise....

            A reply to noise isn't necessarily noise, especially when that reply potentially changes the offending person's behavior, thereby improving the situation in the future by helping foster a culture where that behavior isn't acceptable.

            If you're discussing another user's behaviour, that isn't relevant to an article about the latest mass shooting in the USA or a video about how Roman armies obtained their supplies. It's noise.

            It's practically impossible to ensure people have read an article before commenting without tracking their clicks, which means this feature would absolutely have to be opt-in, which completely negates its effectiveness.

            I'm not quite sure how invasive it is to store the information that you clicked on a link on Tildes. The database already knows that you voted on the post, and that you commented under the post. Why is that extra click more invasive?

            And, the click data doesn't need to be stored forever. It could be part of the set of user data which is automatically deleted after 30 days.

            1. [27]
              cfabbro
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              No, that is not noise! Not everything that is offtopic (or a joke) is noise, and we have gone over this very topic multiple times before, too. There is a reason the Offtopic (and joke) label...

              If you're discussing another user's behaviour, that isn't relevant to an article about the latest mass shooting in the USA or a video about how Roman armies obtained their supplies. It's noise.

              No, that is not noise! Not everything that is offtopic (or a joke) is noise, and we have gone over this very topic multiple times before, too. There is a reason the Offtopic (and joke) label exists and has a completely different effect than the noise label. And if every time you label something offtopic (or joke) you are also labeling it noise, you are misusing the labels, IMO, and so you should really consider not doing that anymore.

              I'm not quite sure how invasive it is to store the information that you clicked on a link on Tildes.

              Clicking on vote triggers an internal mechanism, which by necessity needs to be tracked for it to serve its purpose. Whereas clicking a hyperlink is handled internally by the browser, which means unless it leads to the same domain as the site you are on, in order to track if someone clicks them it would require intentionally injecting a tracking script into the mix. That goes against privacy-by-design and would therefor require being opt-in.

              And, the click data doesn't need to be stored forever. It could be part of the set of user data which is automatically deleted after 30 days.

              How long it's stored makes no difference whatsoever. Comment visits only stores your history for 30 days, and yet despite that still required being opt-in. See that feature's description as for why:

              Tildes can mark which comments were posted since your previous visit to a topic's comments (and which topics have any new ones), but doing so requires keeping track of when that previous visit happened. This has a privacy implication, so the feature is opt-in.

              5 votes
              1. [26]
                Algernon_Asimov
                Link Parent
                To me, "noise" is a catch-all term for anything not relevant and not productive. Some noise is off-topic, some noise is jokes, some noise is other, but it's all irrelevant and unproductive. I...

                No, that is not noise! And we have gone over this very topic multiple times before, too. There is a reason the Offtopic (and joke) label exists and has a completely different effect than the noise label.

                To me, "noise" is a catch-all term for anything not relevant and not productive. Some noise is off-topic, some noise is jokes, some noise is other, but it's all irrelevant and unproductive. I usually use "Offtopic" on its own, without adding "Noise", but I usually add "Noise" when I use "Joke" - because jokes are a more egregious type of noise than off-topic comments.

                Clicking on vote triggers an internal mechanism, which by necessity needs to be tracked for it to serve its purpose. Whereas clicking a hyperlinks is handled internally by the browser, which means in order to track if someone clicks them it would require intentionally injecting a tracking script into the mix.

                I didn't realise this. I see why we technically can't do it, but I still don't see it as a privacy issue. We're already on Tildes, and it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that we're going to read stuff here. That's not really a secret.

                1. FatherGlucose
                  (edited )
                  Link Parent
                  It's not really a secret that we will read, however not every user reads every article posted on Tildes, and you cannot assume that everyone will read every article. Either because of a lack of...

                  I didn't realise this. I see why we technically can't do it, but I still don't see it as a privacy issue. We're already on Tildes, and it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that we're going to read stuff here. That's not really a secret.

                  It's not really a secret that we will read, however not every user reads every article posted on Tildes, and you cannot assume that everyone will read every article. Either because of a lack of interest in the actual topic, or a lack of wanting to visit specific domains (which can happen for a multitude of different reasons). By tracking what external links are being linked, it will be possible to track user interest across different subjects in each group, find which websites get the most clicks, etc.


                  Now I trust Deimos and Tildes enough to presume that even if that feature gets implemented, it won't be used in such a way. Nevertheless, when viewed from a privacy perspective, this is quite a costly feature because of the aforementioned consequences. I really think people in general ought to value their privacy more.
                  At the risk of sounding like I'm concern trolling:

                  We already have lead ourselves into a semi-dystopian surveillance state by not thinking about privacy enough. From the Cambridge Analytica leak, Facebook sticking users in political echo chambers based on their left/right leanings and affecting elections, YouTube suggesting extreme videos on certain subjects, Google knowing your every location, Australia requiring some companies to implement back doors in their products, Hong Kong police using facial detection in the recent ongoing protests and China creating a social credit system... Isn't it nice that Tildes values our privacy? It's a small bubble of fresh air in a sea of tracking. Let's not cheaply squander that with something that can be easily side-stepped. If comments that are clearly written without reading the link start significantly appearing, this suggests a failure or shift in the site's culture. Why a failure? Because the site is invite only for the foregoing future, and it will be our collective fault if we invite enough users with this behaviour that it becomes problematic.
                  I'll admit, I've been guilty a few times of committing this mistake on Reddit, do you know what changed my behaviour? When someone replies to me by mentioning that the article already addressed or rebuked my comment, or even quotes the relevant parts. I think that's the best way to mitigate this behaviour, because it has a certain shaming or embarrassing effect ; and replying to a noisy or off topic comment by mentioning points made in the article would be wholly on-topic.

                  8 votes
                2. [24]
                  cfabbro
                  (edited )
                  Link Parent
                  If noise was meant to be a "catch-all" then logically the other labels that fall within its scope would have the exact same or an even stronger effect than noise does. But they do not have the...

                  If noise was meant to be a "catch-all" then logically the other labels that fall within its scope would have the exact same or an even stronger effect than noise does. But they do not have the same effect and in fact both are much milder effects, which is clearly for a reason and that reason is that they are clearly meant to serve entirely different purposes (even if there might occasionally be some overlap, which is why multiple labels can still be applied), and therefor you are mistaken in your interpretation and are misusing the noise label IMO.

                  but I still don't see it as a privacy issue.

                  It's a privacy issue for the exact same reason that tracking your history of visiting each comment section is a privacy issue. And click tracking external hyperlinks is even more of a privacy issue because by default browsers do not transmit that information to the host site, so if a site wants to track that they have to write a script to explicitly override the default browser behavior in order to collect that information.

                  6 votes
                  1. [23]
                    Algernon_Asimov
                    Link Parent
                    I've yet to see a definition of "noise" which does not also include jokes (specifically short comments which are purely jokes, rather than lengthy comments which include humour). Which is...? I'm...

                    therefor you are mistaken in your interpretation and are misusing the noise label IMO.

                    I've yet to see a definition of "noise" which does not also include jokes (specifically short comments which are purely jokes, rather than lengthy comments which include humour).

                    It's a privacy issue for the exact same reason that tracking your history of visiting each comment section is a privacy issue.

                    Which is...?

                    I'm still not getting it. Why is it so important to keep private the fact that I clicked on a link in Tildes? Who's tracking me? What are they going to do with the information? When will ASIO come knocking on my door and take me away?

                    The fact that someone has to write a script to collect information doesn't make it an issue of privacy. What makes this an issue of privacy is that, supposedly, I need to hide the fact that I clicked on a link in Tildes. But hide it from whom, and why?

                    1. [4]
                      unknown user
                      Link Parent
                      Privacy is not about what you want to hide. It is about what you consent to share. We all know everybody else has genitals, and we generally don't want to show them to everybody; yet possessing...

                      I'm still not getting it. Why is it so important to keep private the fact that I clicked on a link in Tildes? Who's tracking me? What are they going to do with the information? When will ASIO come knocking on my door and take me away?

                      Privacy is not about what you want to hide. It is about what you consent to share. We all know everybody else has genitals, and we generally don't want to show them to everybody; yet possessing them is not a crime, and displaying them to someone is subject to our (and their) consent.

                      I don't vote on every link I read. I don't read every link I click. I don't comment on every link I visit. I don't even view the comments section for every link I visit. So this feature will definitely introduce new data collection. Which is not something I openly consented to back when I signed up here.

                      This data is totally a great resource for profiling users and advertising to them. It is great data to sell. It is serious when it leaks. And even if it was totally benign, it is still up to the user whether or not they want to share it. It is not essential to browsing or commenting on a forum. Thus, it is extremely invasive to force it on users.

                      10 votes
                      1. [3]
                        Algernon_Asimov
                        Link Parent
                        But Tildes doesn't do these things. And, based on its structure and philosophy, it will never do these things. Why are you worried about things that aren't happening and aren't going to happen?

                        This data is totally a great resource for profiling users and advertising to them. It is great data to sell.

                        But Tildes doesn't do these things. And, based on its structure and philosophy, it will never do these things. Why are you worried about things that aren't happening and aren't going to happen?

                        1. Amarok
                          Link Parent
                          The only way to make sure your user's data is safe is not to collect any in the first place. If it's here, it will be stolen at some point, either by hacks, subpoenas, or carelessness. The best...

                          The only way to make sure your user's data is safe is not to collect any in the first place. If it's here, it will be stolen at some point, either by hacks, subpoenas, or carelessness. The best possible security policy Tildes can have is to simply have nothing worth stealing in the first place.

                          5 votes
                        2. unknown user
                          Link Parent
                          What it does or does not do doesn't really matter. It is about whether users consent ir not to share that data. Also, there is always the possibility of data leakage or breach, but that is...

                          What it does or does not do doesn't really matter. It is about whether users consent ir not to share that data.

                          Also, there is always the possibility of data leakage or breach, but that is secondary to above.

                          1 vote
                    2. [18]
                      cfabbro
                      (edited )
                      Link Parent
                      From the Tildes Docs: Sure, there can be some cross-over depending on your interpretation of "doesn't add anything meaningful", which I am not denying, but that does not mean all jokes are noise....

                      I've yet to see a definition of "noise" which does not also include jokes (specifically short comments which are purely jokes, rather than lengthy comments which include humour).

                      From the Tildes Docs:

                      Noise - Comments that don't add anything to the discussion. This includes obvious non-contributing comments like "lol", "I agree", and responses to the headline like "finally!", but can also cover anything where the comment's presence doesn't add anything meaningful.

                      Sure, there can be some cross-over depending on your interpretation of "doesn't add anything meaningful", which I am not denying, but that does not mean all jokes are noise. Otherwise, think about it, what would be the point of including a joke label that has a lesser effect than the noise one?

                      And also of note from the original Mechanics page [emphasis mine]:

                      Overall, voting on a comment should mean something like "this is a good comment and I think other people should read it", while labeling a comment adds more information. With the combination of both, you can express things like "this is a good comment, even though it's off-topic", and "this is a joke, but it's a good one".

                      Which implies not all jokes are "bad" ones, which add nothing to the discussions and so would fall under noise.

                      As for the privacy issue... I think @FatherGlucose covered that better than I could.

                      4 votes
                      1. [17]
                        Algernon_Asimov
                        Link Parent
                        See, to me, that definition totally includes joke-only comments: they don't add anything to the discussion, they're non-contributing, they don't add anything meaningful. I don't see anything here...

                        See, to me, that definition totally includes joke-only comments: they don't add anything to the discussion, they're non-contributing, they don't add anything meaningful. I don't see anything here which could possibly exclude jokes from being noise.

                        Maybe I should clarify something. To me, the concept of "noise" is different to the label that says "Noise" (just like the concept of an apple is different to an Apple-branded computer). A label is not a category, and a category is not a label.

                        In general, there are two categories of comments: those that add to a meaningful discussion, and those that don't. The second category are noisome comments. There are lots of different sub-categories of non-meaningful comments that comprise the overall category of noisome comments, such as jokes, and off-topic discussions, and short comments like "this" and "lol". Some of these noisome sub-categories are common enough that there are specific labels for them: "Offtopic" and "Joke". For the others, there's "Noise".

                        So, for me, there's not a one-to-one correspondence between noisome comments and "Noise". All comments labelled "Noise" are (or should be!) noisome, but not all noisome comments are labelled "Noise". Some noisome comments are labelled "Joke" or "Offtopic".

                        Otherwise, think about it, what would be the point in including a joke tag that has a lesser effect than the noise tag?

                        I honestly don't know. The only explanation I've been able to think of is: Deimos wanted it. There's no functional benefit in separating out jokes from other noisome comments. But he did. I didn't understand it at the time, and I still don't understand it now.

                        As for the privacy issue... I think FatherGlucose covered that better than I could.

                        I don't see a concrete reason there to explain why I need to hide the fact that I clicked on a link on Tildes. I was hoping you'd come up with something better. Oh well. :/

                        1 vote
                        1. [10]
                          FatherGlucose
                          Link Parent
                          Because it should be private by default. As a privacy by design website, Tildes shouldn't be entitled to know what sites I visit externally for something so trivially bypassed.

                          I don't see a concrete reason there to explain why I need to hide the fact that I clicked on a link on Tildes.

                          Because it should be private by default. As a privacy by design website, Tildes shouldn't be entitled to know what sites I visit externally for something so trivially bypassed.

                          4 votes
                          1. [9]
                            Algernon_Asimov
                            Link Parent
                            But you visited them via Tildes. It's a click on Tildes. It's not like Tildes is tracking everything you read in your browser. It's just tracking what you do in Tildes, to enable features of...

                            As a privacy by design website, Tildes shouldn't be entitled to know what sites I visit externally

                            But you visited them via Tildes. It's a click on Tildes. It's not like Tildes is tracking everything you read in your browser. It's just tracking what you do in Tildes, to enable features of Tildes.

                            And, like I said elsewhere, this data can be stored under the 30-day rule which applies to a lot of data here: it gets automatically deleted after 30 days. (It doesn't even need to last that long. It could probably be deleted after 30 minutes!)

                            1 vote
                            1. [8]
                              FatherGlucose
                              Link Parent
                              So? Does Calvin Klein needs to be notified every time I wear their boxers? Not really, it's a click on another website's address. Tildes is just providing that address. Any click leading to...

                              But you visited them via Tildes.

                              So? Does Calvin Klein needs to be notified every time I wear their boxers?

                              It's a click on Tildes.

                              Not really, it's a click on another website's address. Tildes is just providing that address. Any click leading to leaving the site does not belong to it.

                              not like Tildes is tracking everything you read in your browser.

                              It's a start.

                              to enable features of Tildes.

                              Again, a feature that is trivially bypassable and one that holds no guarantees of any marginal changes.

                              It could probably be deleted after 30 minutes!

                              Considering a good number of discussions span several days, you're going to want to hold on to that information for at least a week. A week of clicks accumulates pretty fast.

                              2 votes
                              1. [7]
                                Algernon_Asimov
                                Link Parent
                                Slippery slope? We're only talking about blocking someone's first comment in a thread. After they have an existing comment in a thread, Tildes can delete any record of them having clicked on the link.

                                It's a start.

                                Slippery slope?

                                Considering a good number of discussions spam several days,

                                We're only talking about blocking someone's first comment in a thread. After they have an existing comment in a thread, Tildes can delete any record of them having clicked on the link.

                                1. FatherGlucose
                                  Link Parent
                                  I've been consciously avoiding using the slippery slope argument, because I implicitly trust the site admin enough not to abuse this data or implement more invasive features. It's more about the...

                                  I've been consciously avoiding using the slippery slope argument, because I implicitly trust the site admin enough not to abuse this data or implement more invasive features. It's more about the ratio of compromise to one's privacy vs any actual benefit it can bring. If you don't see it now, I strongly encourage you to read articles about data mining, user privacy and the such.
                                  The idea is: you shouldn't be forced to hand in part of your privacy unless you have to. It's akin to being forced to submit to an invasive medical examination without the ability to refuse. Sure, if we submit all 20 year old males to an anal probing, we'll catch the rare occurrence of prostate cancer, but is it worth it? And why should the rest of the healthy males be forced to submit to this examination if they wish not to?

                                  2 votes
                                2. [5]
                                  Keegan
                                  (edited )
                                  Link Parent
                                  Can't it just be seen then that the user has clicked the link since they commented? I'm not sure if I follow completely. Although it probably would be harder to see than just looking at a database...

                                  We're only talking about blocking someone's first comment in a thread. After they have an existing comment in a thread, Tildes can delete any record of them having clicked on the link.

                                  Can't it just be seen then that the user has clicked the link since they commented? I'm not sure if I follow completely. Although it probably would be harder to see than just looking at a database of what links they've clicked.

                                  1. [4]
                                    Algernon_Asimov
                                    Link Parent
                                    No. The problem that we're discussing here is when someone comments without clicking on the link. They see a title phrased like a question, open the thread, and reply to the question without...

                                    Can't it just be seen then that the user has clicked the link since they commented?

                                    No. The problem that we're discussing here is when someone comments without clicking on the link. They see a title phrased like a question, open the thread, and reply to the question without reading the article which used the question as a headline.

                                    We can't assume that someone who's writing a comment has read the article or watched the video.

                                    1 vote
                                    1. [3]
                                      Keegan
                                      Link Parent
                                      Oops. Sorry I had misunderstood the context. I thought it was about the privacy concerns.

                                      Oops. Sorry I had misunderstood the context. I thought it was about the privacy concerns.

                                      1. [2]
                                        Algernon_Asimov
                                        Link Parent
                                        We digressed into discussions about the privacy implications of one method of fixing the problem, but the basic underlying problem, as identified in the OP, is people commenting without reading...

                                        We digressed into discussions about the privacy implications of one method of fixing the problem, but the basic underlying problem, as identified in the OP, is people commenting without reading the article.

                                        1. Keegan
                                          Link Parent
                                          Got it. Thanks. Yeah I feel like it's an issue too, but I don't really know how I feel about the solutions that I've seen so far. It feels wrong to force that upon users, like they aren't trusted...

                                          Got it. Thanks.

                                          Yeah I feel like it's an issue too, but I don't really know how I feel about the solutions that I've seen so far. It feels wrong to force that upon users, like they aren't trusted at all.

                                          Maybe a new label could be implemented for top-level comments that clearly didn't read the article and if it is given enough (a ratio of some sort) to a user they could start seeing some of the things that have been discussed.

                                          This way it is based on trust.

                                          3 votes
                        2. [6]
                          chembliss
                          Link Parent
                          For example, because of user profiling. It would be totally against the principles of privacy by design, especially numbers 1, 2 and 3. Some of us value highly that aspect of Tildes.

                          For example, because of user profiling. It would be totally against the principles of privacy by design, especially numbers 1, 2 and 3. Some of us value highly that aspect of Tildes.

                          3 votes
                          1. [5]
                            Algernon_Asimov
                            Link Parent
                            Oh noes! The Tildes owner might find out what I read on Tildes! I'll be outed as someone who's interested in science and politics and history and religion! Because that's not already obvious by...

                            For example, because of user profiling.

                            Oh noes! The Tildes owner might find out what I read on Tildes! I'll be outed as someone who's interested in science and politics and history and religion! Because that's not already obvious by looking at what I post, or by reading my public comments...

                            That seems silly. I don't see why this is a problem.

                            1 vote
                            1. [4]
                              chembliss
                              Link Parent
                              Did you even bother checking the link? It's not just that, and if you think that information can't be used and isn't worth money, you're being extremely naive and it isn't surprising at all that...

                              Did you even bother checking the link? It's not just that, and if you think that information can't be used and isn't worth money, you're being extremely naive and it isn't surprising at all that you don't care about privacy. However Tildes does, it's one of its core points, so your personal preference matters little here.

                              2 votes
                              1. [3]
                                Algernon_Asimov
                                Link Parent
                                But we're not on Facebook or Google or even Reddit. This is Tildes. Tildes doesn't use our data for monetary purposes. But yours does?

                                if you think that information can't be used and isn't worth money,

                                But we're not on Facebook or Google or even Reddit. This is Tildes. Tildes doesn't use our data for monetary purposes.

                                so your personal preference matters little here.

                                But yours does?

                                1. [2]
                                  Deimos
                                  (edited )
                                  Link Parent
                                  Let me try to get this argument to end: Tildes is not going to track users' clicks. There isn't even a good technical method for doing it, I don't think it meaningfully addresses the problem, and...

                                  Let me try to get this argument to end: Tildes is not going to track users' clicks. There isn't even a good technical method for doing it, I don't think it meaningfully addresses the problem, and I don't want the data. (And I won't argue about it)

                                  Mentions for other people involved to try to encourage them to drop this argument too: @chembliss @cfabbro @FatherGlucose

                                  Please discuss other methods that might work to improve the problem instead, this one is a dead end.

                                  11 votes
                                  1. Algernon_Asimov
                                    Link Parent
                                    You should also tag @emdash, whose suggestion we're all discussing.

                                    Let me try to get this argument to end: Tildes is not going to track users' clicks.

                                    You should also tag @emdash, whose suggestion we're all discussing.

                                    3 votes
        2. unknown user
          Link Parent
          We can't, tho. All you can ensure is that I clicked through to the linked webpage. There is no way that you ensure I read the article, even if I am browsing the article sitting right next to you...

          Why address the symptom when we can address the cause?

          We can't, tho. All you can ensure is that I clicked through to the linked webpage. There is no way that you ensure I read the article, even if I am browsing the article sitting right next to you with you looking at my screen. Simply put, it is technically impossible to impede someone to comment w/o reading the topic, for it is technically impossible to know that they did before assessing the person either via testing them on it or reading their comments. Even if it was possible to use say a ServiceWorker to check my movements on the page (IDK if that's possible), and it looks like I slowly scrolled top to bottom, good enough to assume that I did read the article, there is simply no certainty to this information (and no privacy respecting way to gather it).

          3 votes
    2. [6]
      smores
      Link Parent
      I don't think it's totally fair to say that JavaScript won't store your clicks; modern browsers all implement some form of local storage. The Storage object is keyed to a domain, but stored in the...

      I don't think it's totally fair to say that JavaScript won't store your clicks; modern browsers all implement some form of local storage. The Storage object is keyed to a domain, but stored in the client, so the server never needs to know any of the info stored there. It's not perfect, but assuming users mostly use only one or two clients for commenting, it could be a decent start.

      2 votes
      1. [5]
        FatherGlucose
        Link Parent
        Never knew this was a thing, thanks! However I think this would still be a significant inconvenience for those of us who alternate frequently between mobile and desktop browsing. The storage would...

        Never knew this was a thing, thanks! However I think this would still be a significant inconvenience for those of us who alternate frequently between mobile and desktop browsing. The storage would be reset as well if the user decides to clear their data from a certain browser. Like you said, it's not perfect.

        3 votes
        1. [4]
          FatherGlucose
          Link Parent
          And I can easily imagine for a user who switches between desktop and mobile significantly, and even for frequent users in general, this effect would eventually wane off after it's past its novelty...

          And I can easily imagine for a user who switches between desktop and mobile significantly, and even for frequent users in general, this effect would eventually wane off after it's past its novelty point. Just like how those window popups asking you to sign up for a newsletter are closed immediately by a user, without any thought or consideration is given, due to their prevalence and annoyance, I can easily imagine users building a tolerance to this effect: clicking on a link, closing it instantly, and going to the comments section to read the discussion. It'll just become another trivial inconvenience on the web.

          2 votes
          1. [3]
            unknown user
            Link Parent
            Not only: if it is in JS, all it takes is a bookmarklet to hack this out of my way if I wanted to comment w/o reading the article.

            Not only: if it is in JS, all it takes is a bookmarklet to hack this out of my way if I wanted to comment w/o reading the article.

            3 votes
            1. [2]
              FatherGlucose
              Link Parent
              Very true, all it takes is a script that immediately opens and closes the link when you click on the comments button. I've given this some thought, because I sympathize with this topic. The best...

              Very true, all it takes is a script that immediately opens and closes the link when you click on the comments button.

              I've given this some thought, because I sympathize with this topic. The best thing I could think of is to try and embed the contents of a linked topic on tildes, making the user scroll down to the comments section past the text. My reasoning is based on the following:
              It is usually linked posts with clickbait titles most often that get skimmed by users wanting to participate quickly in the discussion. It is much more rare for self posts to get comments where the user does not read the contents. My gut feeling tells me it's an issue of having to momentarily switch windows and leave the main social site (Tildes) rather than a feeling of pure laziness and not wanting to read the article. So based on this, if we could trick the mind into treating a linked article as a text post, it would make the user more likely to read it. Additionally, having to scroll all the way down past the article text, down to the comments section might catch the user's attention. This goes hand in hand and extends the reasoning for placing the comment submission box at the bottom of the topic page. This also preserves Tildes' privacy policy.

              @cfabbro, you sound like you take features feedback, what do you think?

              2 votes
              1. cfabbro
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                While I respect/appreciate the thought put into trying to come up with a user privacy respecting method of accomplishing the goal of getting people to read the articles before commenting,...

                The best thing I could think of is to try and embed the contents of a linked topic on tildes, making the user scroll down to the comments section past the text.

                While I respect/appreciate the thought put into trying to come up with a user privacy respecting method of accomplishing the goal of getting people to read the articles before commenting, unfortunately that particular one sounds like a surefire way for Tildes to get sued into oblivion for Copyright infringement... especially here in Canada where our copyright laws can be a bit "weird". ;) It could potentially be done without violating copyright by using an iFrame, but those are a heavily recommended against using these days for various security, usability and accessibility reasons.

                p.s. I don't really take feature feedback, per se. I am just one of the "reporters" on Tildes Gitlab that has volunteered to copy ideas/suggestions/bug reports/etc from ~tildes to there. I do try to exercise my best judgement regarding that though, so I don't end up flooding gitlab with issues I know or heavily suspect Deimos will simply close for various reasons (e.g. not being viable). And given we have talked about this very idea before and he didn't seem to think it was a good idea back then (for most of the same reasons identified by everyone here), unless someone comes up with some novel method for achieving it that doesn't have major issues, I will probably not add it to Gitlab (unless Deimos tells me to do otherwise).

                3 votes
  6. [5]
    NaraVara
    Link
    1.) This seems trivially easy to circumvent. People can click and then come back or just open in a new tab to read it later, but comment right away. 2.) What if I share an entire eBook and your...

    1.) This seems trivially easy to circumvent. People can click and then come back or just open in a new tab to read it later, but comment right away.

    2.) What if I share an entire eBook and your comment was going to be "I've been wanting to learn more about this for a while. Thanks for sharing!"?

    3.) You need to start serving cookies to track clicks now?

    4.) At least a third of the links on Tildes I will have already seen elsewhere or already read a link about the same topic. So why do I need to click through again?

    6 votes
    1. [4]
      AugustusFerdinand
      Link Parent
      It is easy to circumvent, but that's not the point. The point is that any barrier to entry requires effort to overcome and those that are here to make noise tire of the effort. If you actually...
      1. It is easy to circumvent, but that's not the point. The point is that any barrier to entry requires effort to overcome and those that are here to make noise tire of the effort. If you actually read the article, you'd have been spending the click to get to it anyway.
      2. Then perhaps they should have simply voted it up and not left a useless comment or sent it via PM. One of the reasons I'm here is to avoid the utterly useless comments like that.
      3. No, it can be done with JS.
      4. See item 1. Each article on a subject does not always contain the same information or view/spin and is thereby not the same as the one you read.
      3 votes
      1. [3]
        NaraVara
        Link Parent
        1.) I assume I'm not the only one who opens everything in new tabs before going through and reading them. It's not even effort is the thing. It's trivially easy to circumvent. 2.) That was only...

        1.) I assume I'm not the only one who opens everything in new tabs before going through and reading them. It's not even effort is the thing. It's trivially easy to circumvent.

        2.) That was only one example. You could also have a comment like "I've been interested in this subject. Does it cover [niche topic] before I decide to dig in?" This is a perfectly appropriate comment. As are comments that only got halfway through long-reads and took issue with a framing on the issues early on.
        And really, who cares about "useless comments?" We barely have any as is and those that are get tagged as noise. Socailization is a better tool for this sort of thing than overt restrictions.

        4.) For the vast majority of articles they do. And for long reads people might actually be able to comment on aspects or chapters of it without having gone through the whole thing.

        5 votes
        1. [2]
          AugustusFerdinand
          Link Parent
          Again any barrier... So a question that can be answered by reading the article or hitting ctrl+F? We barely have issue at this time, but we all know that growth always brings a few high effort...
          1. Again any barrier...
          2. So a question that can be answered by reading the article or hitting ctrl+F? We barely have issue at this time, but we all know that growth always brings a few high effort valuable individuals and the extremely low effort masses.
          3. No one is making you go through the hole thing.
          1 vote
          1. unknown user
            Link Parent
            This is simply no barrier, this is an imaginary barrier. It is not much different from ten tilders coming together in a room and singing aloud "we wish everybody read the articles before posting"....

            Again any barrier...

            This is simply no barrier, this is an imaginary barrier. It is not much different from ten tilders coming together in a room and singing aloud "we wish everybody read the articles before posting". Unless very invasive techniques are used, that is.

            So a question that can be answered by reading the article or hitting ctrl+F?

            You can ^F only to a certain degree of sophistication.

            1 vote
  7. [3]
    ubergeek
    Link
    Rather than trying to solve the problem of people replying to bait titles by requiring a click tracker, how about doing something to prevent articles with baity titles from being linked without...

    Rather than trying to solve the problem of people replying to bait titles by requiring a click tracker, how about doing something to prevent articles with baity titles from being linked without further info added, or not allowing bait articles at all?

    5 votes
    1. cfabbro
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      It should be noted that, while there isn't an "official" policy about clickbait, a solution to clickbait is already in place and already being used... title editing. So if you do see an article...

      It should be noted that, while there isn't an "official" policy about clickbait, a solution to clickbait is already in place and already being used... title editing. So if you do see an article that you feel has a click-bait title, please say something about it in the comments so one of us with title editing can correct it. If it's particularly egregious, mention @‍Deimos (or me) in that comment so we can be made aware of it and fix it faster.

      6 votes
    2. chembliss
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      The problem isn't always clickbait, I think having the thesis of the article in the title can have often a similar effect, especially when dealing with common arguments about controversial...

      The problem isn't always clickbait, I think having the thesis of the article in the title can have often a similar effect, especially when dealing with common arguments about controversial subjects. I wrote a comment about that here (below your comment, at the moment).

      Edit: also, isn't clickbait supposed to incite you to click? Maybe not every exaggerated headline can be considered clickbait.

      1 vote
  8. [7]
    CashewGuy
    Link
    I wrote two paragraphs on pros and cons, and then read your edit about this applying to top-level comments only, and that addressed most of them. I think the idea has merit and is worth...

    I wrote two paragraphs on pros and cons, and then read your edit about this applying to top-level comments only, and that addressed most of them.

    I think the idea has merit and is worth considering. I can see paywalls coming to blows with this, however.

    4 votes
    1. [6]
      Algernon_Asimov
      Link Parent
      If you can't read the article because it's behind a paywall, how can you discuss that article?

      I can see paywalls coming to blows with this, however.

      If you can't read the article because it's behind a paywall, how can you discuss that article?

      1 vote
      1. [4]
        JamesTeaKirk
        Link Parent
        I would direct you to Whom's comment. There are various reasons why clicking the link of a post is not necessary to contribute to a discussion

        I would direct you to Whom's comment. There are various reasons why clicking the link of a post is not necessary to contribute to a discussion

        2 votes
        1. [3]
          Algernon_Asimov
          Link Parent
          I already read @Whom's comment before I posted mine. I disagree with their points, but I didn't feel like replying to it. Should I?

          I already read @Whom's comment before I posted mine. I disagree with their points, but I didn't feel like replying to it. Should I?

          1. [2]
            JamesTeaKirk
            Link Parent
            You do as you wish; I'm just pointing out that their comment is essentially an answer to your question of how one could discuss a post without having clicked the link.

            You do as you wish; I'm just pointing out that their comment is essentially an answer to your question of how one could discuss a post without having clicked the link.

            2 votes
            1. Algernon_Asimov
              Link Parent
              And I'm implying that their comment is not a sufficient answer. So I've replied there to say so.

              And I'm implying that their comment is not a sufficient answer.

              So I've replied there to say so.

      2. unknown user
        Link Parent
        It is possible that they read a similar article or somehow bypassed the paywall.

        It is possible that they read a similar article or somehow bypassed the paywall.

        2 votes
  9. [8]
    Algernon_Asimov
    Link
    Fuck yes! Was I supposed to read the text as well as the title? ;) Despite your clarification that this should apply only to top-level comments, I would apply it to all comments in a thread. How...

    Should clicking an article on Tildes be a prerequisite for posting a comment in the associated thread?

    Fuck yes!

    Was I supposed to read the text as well as the title? ;)

    Despite your clarification that this should apply only to top-level comments, I would apply it to all comments in a thread. How can you discuss someone's response to an article/video if you haven't read/watched it yourself?

    The article/video that was posted provides the context for the discussion at hand. Anyone who wants to comment in the discussion should know what is being discussed.

    3 votes
    1. [3]
      reese
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Questions: What happens when a comment is meta-discussion of the linked article? What if the linked article is intended to be supplementary to the summary? What if the user is already...

      Questions:

      1. What happens when a comment is meta-discussion of the linked article?
      2. What if the linked article is intended to be supplementary to the summary?
      3. What if the user is already (intimately?) familiar with the event or thing in question?
      4. What if you're not logged in, and want to comment later?
      5. If there is no (topic entry) cooldown, and instead there is simply detection of one having navigated to the link, then what happens when the user unintentionally sidesteps that by opening the link in a different browser or session?

      Edit: Oh, here's another one I just thought of: Say there is a cooldown integrated based solely on when the user enters the topic, then if that user writes in endless monologues like I do, then what happens when the cooldown expires while the user is still writing a response?

      7 votes
      1. [2]
        Algernon_Asimov
        Link Parent
        Even most meta-discussions require some knowledge of the content of the linked article/video. "Where does this post belong?" "The title is clickbait!" "Is this article/video really suitable...
        1. Even most meta-discussions require some knowledge of the content of the linked article/video. "Where does this post belong?" "The title is clickbait!" "Is this article/video really suitable content for Tildes?" How can anyone discuss those issues without having read/watched the article/video?

        2. How can something be supplementary to a summary? if anything, the summary is supplementary to the original article/video - and it's better to read/watch the original article/video than the summary. (I assume we're talking about link posts, rather than text posts which might contain a link as part of a larger post.)

        3. The commenter may be familiar with the event or thing in question, but may not be familiar with the particular article/video. I might be relatively knowledgeable when it comes to Roman history, but if I'm commenting on a video about Roman history, I should probably know which specific aspects of Roman history the video is discussing, rather than just typing a brain-dump vaguely inspired by a short title.

        4. If you're logged out, then you can't comment anyway.

        5. If users make deliberate efforts to get around any restrictions, then they get around them. Even @emdash admits that this isn't a perfect solution. No solution can or will be perfect. But a partial improvement is better than no improvement.

        6. I'm not discussing cooldowns. That's not the part of @emdash's suggestion I'm agreeing with. But, I thought the point of a cooldown would be to prevent you commenting before a certain time: you open the post, and can't comment for 60 seconds. After 60 seconds, you can comment, which means by the time you finish typing your endless monologue, the cooldown has expired and you're good to go.

        1. FatherGlucose
          Link Parent
          To address your fourth point, I think you misunderstood what @reese meant. Since Tildes has privacy in mind, it's reasonable to assume it does not know who's behind the browser when logged off. If...

          To address your fourth point, I think you misunderstood what @reese meant. Since Tildes has privacy in mind, it's reasonable to assume it does not know who's behind the browser when logged off. If I happen to read the article while logged off, say at my workspace, I still wouldn't be able to comment if I decided to log in later since it wouldn't have registered my click to my account.

          5 votes
    2. [4]
      aphoenix
      Link Parent
      What if I've read the article / watched the video / heard the song previously? If someone posts a video of Mephisto Waltz No.2 and I want to voice an opinion on it, why do I have to listen to a...

      What if I've read the article / watched the video / heard the song previously? If someone posts a video of Mephisto Waltz No.2 and I want to voice an opinion on it, why do I have to listen to a 12-minute long song that I know well to take part in a conversation about it? If someone posts a link to something that I've previously linked or read on reddit or lobste.rs, why would I have to wait an arbitrary amount of time to post a comment about it?

      Or if someone posts a video about a topic that I find interesting, but I'm in a place that I cannot watch videos, can I not ask for a summary of the video as a comment?

      What if I don't want what I click on to be tracked? Isn't the whole idea of click tracking anathema to what @Deimos is doing with tildes and privacy?

      What if I just read faster than other people, and I do the "10-minute read" in 4 minutes - do I have to wait 6 extra minutes before I can post a comment?

      If there's no timer and we're just click-tracked, then can't I just click the post and get around whatever solution we have?

      To be clear, I think the intention (people should read articles) is really great, and I agree with it, but I think that this is more about how communities interact with things, and we need to foster a community that encourages people to read articles before commenting, and not try to find a technical way to get around things, because I guarantee that someone will find a way around any technical limitation.

      5 votes
      1. [2]
        Algernon_Asimov
        Link Parent
        For starters: I've already said in another comment that I'm not agreeing with the idea of a cooldown period. I don't believe there should be a time limit on when people can comment. I'm only...

        If someone posts a link to something that I've previously linked or read on reddit or lobste.rs, why would I have to wait an arbitrary amount of time to post a comment about it?

        For starters: I've already said in another comment that I'm not agreeing with the idea of a cooldown period. I don't believe there should be a time limit on when people can comment. I'm only agreeing that people should read/watch/listen to the linked content before commenting on it.

        If you've already read/watch/heard the linked content, then good for you. However, Tildes.net isn't aware of your activities elsewhere, so you need to demonstrate here that you've read/watch/heard the relevant content. It should be quick to get through it if you've already seen it.

        Or if someone posts a video about a topic that I find interesting, but I'm in a place that I cannot watch videos, can I not ask for a summary of the video as a comment?

        So you can discuss a summary of the video? I'd rather you didn't. I'd rather you waited until such time as you could actually watch the video for yourself, rather than relying on someone else's summary of it. Any summary will omit most of the information in the video, leaving you severely underinformed and therefore handicapped in any attempt to discuss it.

        What if I don't want what I click on to be tracked?

        I don't understand this. Honestly. I'm having the same discussion elsewhere in this thread. Why do I need to hide the fact that I clicked on a link in Tildes?

        we're just click-tracked, then can't I just click the post and get around whatever solution we have?

        Yes. emdash has already conceded that this idea isn't perfect. But, as @Wes said elsewhere, "If it leads to even 30% more people reading articles before posting, that can still have a positive effect."

        3 votes
        1. aphoenix
          Link Parent
          I don't think having clicked on a link is an indication that one has done so. No, so I can make a decision for later if I even want to watch it. Not all discussion has to be 100% directly...

          I'm only agreeing that people should read/watch/listen to the linked content before commenting on it.

          I don't think having clicked on a link is an indication that one has done so.

          So you can discuss a summary of the video?

          No, so I can make a decision for later if I even want to watch it. Not all discussion has to be 100% directly contributing to high brow discussion; this is a community, and as a community we don't have to be overly informed to have opinions, ask questions, or be members. This is why we have "noise" and why it gets collapsed and not removed.

          I don't understand this. Honestly. I'm having the same discussion elsewhere in this thread. Why do I need to hide the fact that I clicked on a link in Tildes?

          Because this is the first step in building profiles of user behaviour. To be clear, I trust @Deimos implicitly with my information, but I do not expect other people to do so, and I expect Tildes to be built in such a way that we shouldn't all have to have a personal connection with the developer to have trust in a system. Reddit, Google, Facebook, etc. all keep track of the things that you click on and build up an idea of the sorts of things that you like to click on so that they have an idea of what you, the person behind the username "Algernon_Asimov" likes to see on the internet. They sell this information to advertising companies so that on those sites you get advertisements that are targeted towards you. Many of us do not like this sort of profiling to happen, and the fact that it would even be collected means that at some point in the future, TIldes could start doing the same thing, and could do so with historic data.

          It's not a good precedent.

          "If it leads to even 30% more people reading articles before posting, that can still have a positive effect."

          I am unconvinced that a requirement to click on the link would have an effect like this. I imagine that any arbitrary barrier to conversation will actually just limit the conversation that happens. That's not a good idea for a site that purports to be an alternative to Reddit, and is in the growing phase.

          5 votes
      2. AugustusFerdinand
        Link Parent
        No one said you have to listen. No one said you have to read the article either. Just that you have to click to show that you've made the effort to review the content prior to speaking on it.

        What if I've read the article / watched the video / heard the song previously? If someone posts a video of Mephisto Waltz No.2 and I want to voice an opinion on it, why do I have to listen to a 12-minute long song that I know well to take part in a conversation about it?

        No one said you have to listen. No one said you have to read the article either. Just that you have to click to show that you've made the effort to review the content prior to speaking on it.

        1 vote
  10. chembliss
    Link
    I'm not sure about that. And not sure means just not sure of wether it would have a positive effect or not. Another way to address the problem, maybe a complementary way, would be trying to reduce...

    I'm not sure about that. And not sure means just not sure of wether it would have a positive effect or not. Another way to address the problem, maybe a complementary way, would be trying to reduce the presence of the thesis of the articles in the title, tending to give more titles that just point towards the subject being discussed. I understand (and am sometimes victim of) the urge to jump in and write without reading it if the title contains an argument that you have already read and heard many times (although maybe not from the perspective of the article, that's the problem) and you feel strongly about. It's a feeling like "oh no, this argument again". So IMHO, tending to keep titles descriptive of the subject would be helpful here.

    3 votes
  11. [3]
    nic
    Link
    You could track whether someone clicks on a link, but how do you track if someone read the text of a post without an article? An alternate approach would be to track the time when the topic was...

    You could track whether someone clicks on a link, but how do you track if someone read the text of a post without an article?

    An alternate approach would be to track the time when the topic was first opened and the time a user comments on the topic. You could easily identify speedy commenters. Simply tracking the data on the backend might produce some interesting insights.

    1 vote
    1. [2]
      emdash
      Link Parent
      You wouldn't. This proposal only applies to posts to external sources.

      You could track whether someone clicks on a link, but how do you track if someone read the text of a post without an article?

      You wouldn't. This proposal only applies to posts to external sources.

      1 vote
      1. nic
        Link Parent
        Why? You think people are more likely to read text if it is embedded in the topic?

        Why? You think people are more likely to read text if it is embedded in the topic?

        1 vote
  12. SourceContribute
    Link
    You can't force people to think, but you can slow them down enough that maybe they'll think. On the other hand, if there are bots on Tildes, they'd just auto-click and post something that somewhat...

    You can't force people to think, but you can slow them down enough that maybe they'll think.

    On the other hand, if there are bots on Tildes, they'd just auto-click and post something that somewhat sounds intelligible.