19 votes

Not trying to make waves but why are articles posted to news that relate to lgbt moved?

As a new member I am really hesitant to post this but I recently posted an article to ~news that was related to lgbt issues and it was moved to ~lgbt. I fully support a sub section devoted to lgbt but news should be news regardless.

Just because it has an lgbt angle does not mean it should be moved. I'm not even lgbt myself but I find it sort of hurtful that a news article was pushed off ~news. So I ask this, and once again not trying to make waves. But why?

Edit: I would love to be a member of this community as I am personally seeking a less asshole filled reddit alternative. But pushing a news article to another ~ just because it relates a bit more to them shouldn't be a thing. If you are tolerant it relates to us all. And yes I know I posted it in ~news because I was trying to participate and I'm a news junky.

Sorry.

Edit 2: This was a sad sorry way to come in to this community. I apologize.

35 comments

  1. [5]
    Deimos
    Link
    I've said this before, but I'd rather if ~news didn't even exist. Every single other group is based on a content subject, but ~news is based around a type of content. In general, if there's a...
    • Exemplary

    I've said this before, but I'd rather if ~news didn't even exist. Every single other group is based on a content subject, but ~news is based around a type of content.

    In general, if there's a group for the subject that the content fits into, it should be posted in that group. ~news is really just around as a kind of catch-all for things like "world events" that don't easily fit anywhere else.

    33 votes
    1. [4]
      NaraVara
      Link Parent
      Maybe relabeling it something like ~CurrentEvents might help make its purpose more clear?

      Maybe relabeling it something like ~CurrentEvents might help make its purpose more clear?

      5 votes
      1. [3]
        AugustusFerdinand
        Link Parent
        Changing the name isn't going to change what gets posted there. It'll still be a repository of current events/news that doesn't fit into an individual group.

        Changing the name isn't going to change what gets posted there. It'll still be a repository of current events/news that doesn't fit into an individual group.

        8 votes
        1. [2]
          pallas
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          But in reality, isn't it more accurate to describe it as a group for politics, with a US focus? Looking at it now: 13 of the top 20 posts have a politics tag. An additional 3 or 4 of the top 20...

          It'll still be a repository of current events/news that doesn't fit into an individual group.

          But in reality, isn't it more accurate to describe it as a group for politics, with a US focus? Looking at it now:

          • 13 of the top 20 posts have a politics tag.
          • An additional 3 or 4 of the top 20 don't have politics tags, but are essentially US or Hong Kong political topics, putting this at 16 or 17 of the top 20.
          • The group wiki pages are entirely about US politics.
          • Everything in the sidebar is about US politics.
          • The group has a weekly discussion thread about US politics; this is its only regularly scheduled topic.

          It's not as bad as ~misc, perhaps, where 17 of the top 20 topics are clearly politics, with 14 of those US-related or US-focused. But it still seems like it's essentially a politics group.

          2 votes
          1. AugustusFerdinand
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Like it or not, much of the news is politics. I think, and have stated here, there needs to be a ~politics or a ~news.politics that can be separated out and unsubscribed to by those that don't...

            Like it or not, much of the news is politics. I think, and have stated here, there needs to be a ~politics or a ~news.politics that can be separated out and unsubscribed to by those that don't want to see the topics at all since tagging isn't perfect and is largely a manual process done by some of us.

            ~misc has many political posts as it's used to move things that are politics but are not news (such as opinion pieces).

            2 votes
  2. [10]
    cfabbro
    (edited )
    Link
    I didn't move the topic, but I likely would have move it too, had I seen it first... and my reasoning would be: Users still subscribed to ~news, but that have also specifically unsubscribed from...

    I didn't move the topic, but I likely would have move it too, had I seen it first... and my reasoning would be:

    Users still subscribed to ~news, but that have also specifically unsubscribed from ~lgbt are unlikely to be interested in the topic, so it's probably best to just have it in ~lgbt. Tildes is also still pretty small, so the vast majority of people subscribed to both groups are likely to see the topic regardless of where it's posted or moved to, so at this point moving things is somewhat inconsequential. And in the future, things like crossposting/multi-home posts (that @Amarok mentioned) will hopefully make it so that where something is posted matters even less than it does now.

    p.s. I am a member of the LGBT+ community, and while I can't speak for everyone, I would also personally rather have topics relevant to us posted in ~lgbt rather than elsewhere, since there will likely be more understanding users participating in and monitoring the comments section there, and Deimos has also tended to enforce slightly stricter moderation there as well.

    17 votes
    1. [2]
      aphoenix
      Link Parent
      I just want to challenge this: I'm interested in the topic, and I gave some reasoning in this comment below about my thoughts on the matter.

      I just want to challenge this:

      Users still subscribed to ~news, but that have also specifically unsubscribed from ~lgbt are unlikely to be interested in the topic

      I'm interested in the topic, and I gave some reasoning in this comment below about my thoughts on the matter.

      6 votes
      1. cfabbro
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        While ~lgbt is a place where members of the LGBT+ community can discuss things on Tildes, it isn't exclusively for us or for that purpose. From the group description [emphasis mine]: So I would...

        While ~lgbt is a place where members of the LGBT+ community can discuss things on Tildes, it isn't exclusively for us or for that purpose. From the group description [emphasis mine]:

        This group includes discussions and news regarding LGBT-related topics. The umbrella term "LGBT" includes all minority sexualities and gender identities. Everybody is welcome to participate.

        So I would definitely recommend resubbing to ~lgbt if you're interested in reading LGBT+ related news.

        But I would also personally recommend that when cishet people do participate there they at least try to respect that they're in a group that is more geared towards and populated by LGBT+ people. So if, for example, a question is asked of the community, it's probably best to let LGBT+ people have a chance to answer first before adding any "as a cishet person" type comments. And it should also go without saying that ~lgbt is not really the right place to "debate" or challenge our fundamental rights, and definitely not our right to exist either; Doing that has gotten people banned in the past, and for good reason, IMO.

        p.s. all that advice was not necessarily directed at you aphoenix, since I know you're a stand-up person and ally, I was mostly just typing that out for anyone else who reads the above and rejoins ~lgbt, but might not know better. ;)

        7 votes
    2. [7]
      FeralKatt
      Link Parent
      I entirely know where you come from but to me personally news is news. The source and factual content of course always matters, but if something is news well it's news regardless of the topic at...

      I entirely know where you come from but to me personally news is news. The source and factual content of course always matters, but if something is news well it's news regardless of the topic at hand.

      But yet again I'm new here and I thank you all for helping me.

      5 votes
      1. [6]
        snowcrash
        Link Parent
        What about, for example, industry gaming news? ~news or ~games? To me it depends on the wider impact whether the story belongs in "general news" or in the subtopic. It's not that it isn't news,...

        from but to me personally news is news.

        What about, for example, industry gaming news? ~news or ~games? To me it depends on the wider impact whether the story belongs in "general news" or in the subtopic. It's not that it isn't news, it's just that it can be more accurately categorized as "lgbt news" or "gaming industry news".

        The big stories of any category can always break through to general news (and ~news), but not every story.

        9 votes
        1. [4]
          onyxleopard
          Link Parent
          The problem is an ontological one—Tildes tags don't make a distinction between genre and domain other than in the semantics of the tags themselves. That is to say, while news indicates genre, the...

          The problem is an ontological one—Tildes tags don't make a distinction between genre and domain other than in the semantics of the tags themselves. That is to say, while news indicates genre, the dimension of domain (which a tag such as lgbt might indicate ) is more or less independent from the genre—for any topic tagged with a given domain tag, you could also add news to indicate it is news about/within a particular domain (or union of several domains). While it may be more ideal to model the tags with separate dimensions of genre, domain, etc., this becomes more complicated both for those who perform the actual tagging of topics and for users who want to filter topics by tag. It's a hard problem because most people have different and potentially conflicting opinions about the meaning of the tags and how they should be used. And there is also the separate dimension of which community a topic is posted to (since domain/genre information is also encoded by the community title itself).

          It might be useful if Tildes had some guidelines about how to choose appropriate tags and the semantics of some of the most commonly used tags. I just took a glance at the Wiki and I didn't see anything pertinent. Users who are the most prolific taggers would be the best users to solicit input on such guidelines from.

          3 votes
          1. [3]
            Micycle_the_Bichael
            Link Parent
            Here is the best thing in the docs I can find and its a noted WIP, hasn't been updated in a year and a half, and I'm pretty sure the main two contributors to that doc both have left the site since...

            Here is the best thing in the docs I can find and its a noted WIP, hasn't been updated in a year and a half, and I'm pretty sure the main two contributors to that doc both have left the site since then.

            3 votes
            1. [2]
              onyxleopard
              Link Parent
              Ah, thanks for linking that. I know I'd seen it before, but I couldn't find it quickly (which is either an indication that I am bad at finding things, or the Wiki/Docs are not organized well...

              Ah, thanks for linking that. I know I'd seen it before, but I couldn't find it quickly (which is either an indication that I am bad at finding things, or the Wiki/Docs are not organized well enough, or I'm lazy, or some combination of the aforementioned).

              2 votes
              1. Micycle_the_Bichael
                Link Parent
                I only was able to find it because I had a conversation where I linked to that exact page a couple months ago :)

                I only was able to find it because I had a conversation where I linked to that exact page a couple months ago :)

                4 votes
        2. FeralKatt
          Link Parent
          Understandable. I personally hate looking up tech news and getting fortnite news but at the same time news that affects society regardless IS news. You might not think lgbt news is news but I...

          Understandable.

          I personally hate looking up tech news and getting fortnite news but at the same time news that affects society regardless IS news. You might not think lgbt news is news but I personally think society news is news.

          2 votes
  3. [5]
    Amarok
    Link
    I feel like the short answer is that Tildes hasn't got the chops to have a multi-homed post yet - the same post, visible in both communities, and possibly even with separate comment threads, one...

    I feel like the short answer is that Tildes hasn't got the chops to have a multi-homed post yet - the same post, visible in both communities, and possibly even with separate comment threads, one per community where it appears.

    Someone probably saw the 'lgbt' tag and just assumed it should be in that group rather than news. Many people here can edit titles, tags, links, and move posts (only Deimos can delete/lock). Those activities are recorded (for 30 days only, along with the person's name) in the 'topic log' that's over there in the sidebar. --->

    8 votes
    1. [4]
      FeralKatt
      Link Parent
      Sorry I'm a bit new, I didn't know others could move things like that. Still learning the ropes here I guess.

      Sorry I'm a bit new, I didn't know others could move things like that. Still learning the ropes here I guess.

      7 votes
      1. [3]
        Amarok
        Link Parent
        It's fine. The idea here is that while a user makes a post, it's up to the community to manage it. Let the people who care about precision tagging or categorization handle the details the...

        It's fine. The idea here is that while a user makes a post, it's up to the community to manage it. Let the people who care about precision tagging or categorization handle the details the submitters miss or leave out - and move posts to where they belong instead of deleting them like reddit does. Who has access to these features will depend on their level of participation in the community - make everyone into a moderator, if it's a group where they spend a lot of time. Many hands make light work.

        If someone abuses their mod powers we can just turn access to them off again. So far that hasn't been a problem here, everyone's pretty friendly. :)

        11 votes
        1. [2]
          FeralKatt
          Link Parent
          That is good to hear. Sorry if I sounded a bit heated. Thanks for the help :)

          That is good to hear. Sorry if I sounded a bit heated.

          Thanks for the help :)

          5 votes
          1. Amarok
            Link Parent
            We were all a bit heated coming here after reddit. It takes a while for the angry-media hangover to wear off. <3

            We were all a bit heated coming here after reddit. It takes a while for the angry-media hangover to wear off. <3

            9 votes
  4. [4]
    aphoenix
    (edited )
    Link
    I'll put this out there to start: I'm a straight white cismale, so my opinion may not be that useful (and I'm straight white cismale enough to still give it, I guess). How I thought it worked was...

    I'll put this out there to start: I'm a straight white cismale, so my opinion may not be that useful (and I'm straight white cismale enough to still give it, I guess).

    How I thought it worked was that ~lgbt was for discussion amongst the community and was intended mostly for people who identified as part of the LGBT+ community. As such, I'm not subscribed there; my voice isn't an important one for LGBT people to hear on most matters, other than to say HAPPY PRIDE and I APPRECIATE YOU FOR WHO YOU ARE. However, I'm interested in news that touches on LGBT issues, and having a LGBT community that subsumes all the content that is related has sort of sucked that out of my feed, completely. I could (and sometimes do) subscribe to ~lgbt but then I have this issue where much of the content isn't for me, and I don't have anything to add to the discussion (which is fine, I don't have to add to every discussion, or be the focus demographic for a group).

    It's the same issue that was experienced when someone suggested a ~videos group. There are tons of videos, and they don't conform to a specific topic, and could be better placed in other groups. Similarly, ~games has LGBT issues, and ~politics does, and every single group does because LGBT people are people and they exist and are a part of every single group.

    I would love to see ~lgbt used, perhaps, as a discussion oriented space and not a catch-all place. I don't really like that ~lgbt acts as a filter for my feed. That said, I can fix the issue myself by changing what I subscribe to and read, so this could be me overthinking something that doesn't actually have much of an influence on my day to day use of the site.

    There's also another thing that I want to touch on, which is that a lot of people feel like application of tags and moving of things from groups and editing of titles is something personal and problematic. I would urge you to think of it more as an amazing core feature. Part of the reason we have this reaction is because we have this idea of "ownership" of topics that are brought up; we say things like "did you see my post about that?" but instead of the post belonging to you, the post belongs to everyone, and we can adjust it to be the best possible fit for the community. I would also say that the people who do the tagging (mostly @mycketforvirrad) are wonderful and will listen and adjust if you feel like they did something wrong.

    Edit: after reading @Deimos' comment above I want to say "all the same things, but reverse it and make it ~news instead of ~lgbt. News is the thing that shouldn't filter from other groups; it's the catch-all that shouldn't catch all, it's the problem.

    7 votes
    1. [3]
      FeralKatt
      Link Parent
      Thanks. I'm sorry if I was a bit of a bother. But it should probably be a but more discussion based unless articles are posted there specifically. But once again I'm new and learning the ropes but...

      Thanks.

      I'm sorry if I was a bit of a bother. But it should probably be a but more discussion based unless articles are posted there specifically. But once again I'm new and learning the ropes but so far you all have been very helpful people.

      Edit: If it's cool I'm thinking of posting a text topic there.

      3 votes
      1. [2]
        aphoenix
        Link Parent
        It's not a bother! Have opinions and make them known - one of the joys of Tildes is that you can make a difference in how things are run, unlike some other sites.

        It's not a bother! Have opinions and make them known - one of the joys of Tildes is that you can make a difference in how things are run, unlike some other sites.

        4 votes
  5. [10]
    Micycle_the_Bichael
    (edited )
    Link
    I want to make sure I emphasize this up front: I'm not trying to be a dick here. I know you're new, you're not trying to ruffle feathers, and are trying to get a feel for things. Welcome to the...

    I want to make sure I emphasize this up front: I'm not trying to be a dick here. I know you're new, you're not trying to ruffle feathers, and are trying to get a feel for things. Welcome to the community! There's definitely a transition period between how other forums work and tildes and most of us know those changing pains well having gone through it ourselves.

    That said, if that article you posted isn't lgbtq+, I'd be really curious what you think would be fitting for that group. If a queer person trying to give a speech about being queer and being silenced by their school district isn't lgbtq+ then I honestly don't know what would qualify for the group. I get that to you "news is news" but that is very much not the case of all of us. Some news affects the lgbtq+ community more than others, in the same way I'd expect news stories about other marginalized groups would get moved to those groups/subgroups if more existed.

    I'd also like to dig into this statement:

    I'm not even lgbt myself but I find it sort of hurtful that a news article was pushed off ~news.

    Why is it hurtful that it got moved from ~news to another group? Genuinely I am curious what aspect of this was hurtful. Was it a lack of communication of the reasoning, was it the group it got moved to? It would be easy to say "new person is wrong" and move on. But I think this post gives us an opportunity to look at how new members are brought into the community and what we can do to ease that transition.

    7 votes
    1. [9]
      FeralKatt
      Link Parent
      Because I'm used to other sites that relegate topics. so pushing a news article to a "niches" area removes visibility when it was news regardeless of if it was lgbt related. Do we push kidnapping...

      Why is it hurtful that it got moved from ~news to another group?

      Because I'm used to other sites that relegate topics. so pushing a news article to a "niches" area removes visibility when it was news regardeless of if it was lgbt related.

      Do we push kidnapping news to ~kidnapping?

      As long as it is factual news is news.

      5 votes
      1. [8]
        Micycle_the_Bichael
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        No, we don't. The reason isn't because all factual news is news though, it's because there isn't a specific group for kidnappings and there isn't enough content or reason to create that group. If...

        Do we push kidnapping news to ~kidnapping?

        No, we don't. The reason isn't because all factual news is news though, it's because there isn't a specific group for kidnappings and there isn't enough content or reason to create that group. If such a group existed, then yes it should be moved there. Like how tech news is posted to ~tech, and gaming news is posted to ~games, and how news about environmental regulations and developments get put in ~enviro and not news. The same applies to LGBTQ+ news. Is it generally news? Yes. Is there a group that is more specifically about this subject? Yes. Especially in the case of lgbtq+ where, as noted elsewhere, stronger moderation is needed than basic news topics.

        11 votes
        1. [7]
          AugustusFerdinand
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          This is precisely my view as well. If a more specific group exists then it should be placed there. If that's not to be the case then all topics should be in generally larger groups with enforced...
          • Exemplary

          This is precisely my view as well. If a more specific group exists then it should be placed there. If that's not to be the case then all topics should be in generally larger groups with enforced and well established tags so users can filter from there.

          Sidebar of ~lgbt (emphasis mine):

          This group includes discussions and news regarding LGBT-related topics.

          Although I can understand the upset OP is having being that ~lgbt is the only group (outside of ~test) that has a remarkably lower subscriber count than other groups. Which on the one hand makes it seem like the story they posted is being pushed into a dark corner, but on the other is clearly indicative that some users simply don't want to see LGBT related content.

          Sidebar

          In my opinion there needs to be a ~politics group to separate it out of ~news.

          12 votes
          1. [5]
            mycketforvirrad
            Link Parent
            And to be a place to divert 3/4 of all the topics that are forced/shoehorned into ~misc, my least favourite of all the groups. You have my vote! +1

            In my opinion there needs to be a ~politics group to separate it out of ~news.

            And to be a place to divert 3/4 of all the topics that are forced/shoehorned into ~misc, my least favourite of all the groups.

            You have my vote! +1

            6 votes
            1. [4]
              AugustusFerdinand
              Link Parent
              It's not my least favorite, but ~misc does seem to all-too-frequently be a dumping ground for "this is political, but not actually news" links.

              It's not my least favorite, but ~misc does seem to all-too-frequently be a dumping ground for "this is political, but not actually news" links.

              3 votes
              1. [3]
                mycketforvirrad
                Link Parent
                Without a ~politics group, I always divert a great deal of the politics posts to ~misc so that ~news is completely free from opinion pieces. I don't like the ambiguity that opinion/analysis pieces...

                Without a ~politics group, I always divert a great deal of the politics posts to ~misc so that ~news is completely free from opinion pieces.

                I don't like the ambiguity that opinion/analysis pieces may be accidentally consumed as "traditional" fact-based news articles on current events, going by the group name alone.

                Maybe somewhere down the line (the royal) we are still getting hung up with the structures of conventional newspaper media, with "news" and "opinion" sections, and a new categorisation approach is needed. But I'm certainly not the 'man with a plan' for that can of worms.

                5 votes
                1. AugustusFerdinand
                  Link Parent
                  100% with you, it's the best solution for what we have at the moment.

                  100% with you, it's the best solution for what we have at the moment.

                  4 votes
                2. Amarok
                  Link Parent
                  Damn, that's an interesting observation. You may be on to something there.

                  Damn, that's an interesting observation. You may be on to something there.

                  3 votes
          2. onyxleopard
            Link Parent
            I think your explanation of your views is super valuable. I think that your thoughts here could be captured and rewritten as guidance in a page in the Tildes Wiki to help new users deciding which...

            I think your explanation of your views is super valuable. I think that your thoughts here could be captured and rewritten as guidance in a page in the Tildes Wiki to help new users deciding which groups to post new topics to. It could also be supplemented with some guidance on what the Tildes consensus is on how to interpret the semantics of the most popular tags. I think such info the in the Wiki could help a lot with anxiety of new users on where to post and how to tag posts.

            2 votes
  6. mrbig
    Link
    The general practice seems to be that content should be housed in the group most specific to it. ~lgbt is more specific than ~news.

    The general practice seems to be that content should be housed in the group most specific to it. ~lgbt is more specific than ~news.

    4 votes