Ah. Less “the cheap EV revolution is here” and more “will they even allow this on public roads in Texas?” Genuinely struggle to think of where a vehicle that tops out at that speed would have a...
The Topolino, which is capable of going 19 mph, is a quadricycle that functions more like a golf cart.
Ah. Less “the cheap EV revolution is here” and more “will they even allow this on public roads in Texas?”
Genuinely struggle to think of where a vehicle that tops out at that speed would have a use case in my state, but I’m sure it’ll find its niche.
WA has a category for vehicles not allowed on highways, kei trucks tend to have one of those plates. Admittedly they can at least get up to ~55 mph. Central Seattle/Portland I could maybe see this...
A low-speed vehicle conversion kit can boost the top speed to 25 mph to make it street legal on roads with speed limits of 35 mph or less, according to the trans-Atlantic automaker.
WA has a category for vehicles not allowed on highways, kei trucks tend to have one of those plates. Admittedly they can at least get up to ~55 mph. Central Seattle/Portland I could maybe see this as a little grocery-getter / mobility aid? Hopefully it has the torque to maintain speed up hills. Would think something like a Gator utility vehicle would be a better form factor.
Missed that, I stopped reading at “I can bicycle faster than that if I hustle” so thanks for pointing it out! Still, yeah… 35 mph is just above the slowest speed in my town, which bottoms out at 30.
Missed that, I stopped reading at “I can bicycle faster than that if I hustle” so thanks for pointing it out! Still, yeah… 35 mph is just above the slowest speed in my town, which bottoms out at 30.
One niche might be car-sharing services in cities. When I lived in Chicago long ago, I didn't have a car, and neither did my roommates. But I signed up for a car-sharing service. Which we often...
One niche might be car-sharing services in cities. When I lived in Chicago long ago, I didn't have a car, and neither did my roommates. But I signed up for a car-sharing service. Which we often used for grocery shopping or transporting somewhat bigger/bulkier things we didn't want to or couldn't transport over public transit. Plus being small, these Fiats can be parked pretty much anywhere, ready for members to use.
Though looking at how small this is...Does this even have enough space for groceries? Like I went to Costco the other day. I didn't buy a crazy amount of stuff (I live by myself). Aside from a big pack of paper towels, everything else fit into like 6 reusable grocery bags. Which is my pretty typical haul, even from a normal grocery store. I don't know if I could fit all that into this Topolino. I don't see a trunk or even much space behind the seats, after all.
I mean it's not legal to drive in most cities. Even with the speed modification, it's only legal for roads with a speed limit <=35 mph speed limit. Now, with traffic, cars may be going less than...
I mean it's not legal to drive in most cities. Even with the speed modification, it's only legal for roads with a speed limit <=35 mph speed limit. Now, with traffic, cars may be going less than 35 mph, but I struggle to find any cities where you won't go on at least one road with a speed limit >35 mph on the way to a grocery store.
For this kind of city-only car to be viable, it needs to at least be able to hit 55-60 mph top speeds. That may make it illegal on highways but at least legal on pretty much all local roads.
I think you could be ok in a lot of cities if it were capped at 45 but didn't struggle to hit that speed. You'd annoy people on 50 or 55 mph limit roads, but those aren't THAT common. I just can't...
I think you could be ok in a lot of cities if it were capped at 45 but didn't struggle to hit that speed. You'd annoy people on 50 or 55 mph limit roads, but those aren't THAT common.
I just can't think of a lot of places this can go if limited to 25 mph. I can't legally leave my neighborhood in this vehicle since most non-residential roads around here have limits at 40 mph. At 25 mph and only 2 seats, you might as well just e-bike it.
Well, electric golf carts are fairly popular here in wealthier neighborhoods, especially for kids. I don't see who would pay $14k for that though, I imagine there's already plenty of competition.
Well, electric golf carts are fairly popular here in wealthier neighborhoods, especially for kids. I don't see who would pay $14k for that though, I imagine there's already plenty of competition.
A nice golf cart is already getting into the price range for the Topolino. For something cutesy that can be had fully enclosed with a hard shell (with more standard features), this ain’t a bad price.
A nice golf cart is already getting into the price range for the Topolino. For something cutesy that can be had fully enclosed with a hard shell (with more standard features), this ain’t a bad price.
Oh I don’t know, I think some would pay for the cute factor, the fact that it’s enclosed unlike a golf cart and the “it’s European” flair. Maybe it’ll be like the Prius where it kinda became a...
Oh I don’t know, I think some would pay for the cute factor, the fact that it’s enclosed unlike a golf cart and the “it’s European” flair. Maybe it’ll be like the Prius where it kinda became a status symbol?
...NEVs have been a thing since the turn of the millennium but, like e-bikes, at a certain point the resemblance to proper road cars will attract greater regulatory scrutiny... ...they're...
...NEVs have been a thing since the turn of the millennium but, like e-bikes, at a certain point the resemblance to proper road cars will attract greater regulatory scrutiny...
...they're surprisingly ubiquitous in semi-rural texas suburbs as supplemental family transportation; i usually see them at households which already have one or two large pickup trucks and maybe a boat or off-road motorbikes as a more practical alternative for a secondary neighborhood runabout...i could see something like this getting a lot more primary utility in urban centers, but parking and charging infrastructure are a challenge in those dense environments...
Tbh this just makes the US car industry look bad. This thing has a top speed of 19 mph and cost the same as a full BYD sedan, that can go at highway speeds, and has 4 seats.
Tbh this just makes the US car industry look bad. This thing has a top speed of 19 mph and cost the same as a full BYD sedan, that can go at highway speeds, and has 4 seats.
Let's not pretend that these cars aren't heavily subsidized though in order to undercut non Chinese manufactures. To be clear, not saying that US car manufacturing is without issues (far from it)....
Let's not pretend that these cars aren't heavily subsidized though in order to undercut non Chinese manufactures. To be clear, not saying that US car manufacturing is without issues (far from it). But even if they were competent and trying to compete I highly doubt they (or other companies across the globe) can come close in pricing.
The degree to which government subsidies directly affect margin is vastly overstated https://rhg.com/research/why-are-chinese-evs-so-cheap/ The subsidies are important, but not on the unit price....
The degree to which government subsidies directly affect margin is vastly overstated
When spread across BYD’s more than four million vehicles sold, direct grants translate into a cost advantage of roughly $292 per vehicle relative to Tesla (2023–24 average). For Geely, the equivalent figure is around $64 per vehicle. These are meaningful sums—and in BYD’s case, the subsidized cost advantage is growing—but they remain small compared to the structural cost advantages discussed below.
The subsidies are important, but not on the unit price. Government money helps safety - it’s a backstop to allow entrepreneurs to take risks. It’s also immensely helpful to kickstart expensive manufacturing industries like batteries.
But it’s not as if the Chinese government is paying for 20% of every BYD sold.
Directly? Of course not. But China did spend roughly $230 billion to build up the industry (note, this is from a 2024 report the number is likely higher). It is much easier to compete at lower...
But it’s not as if the Chinese government is paying for 20% of every BYD sold.
Directly? Of course not. But China did spend roughly $230 billion to build up the industry (note, this is from a 2024 report the number is likely higher). It is much easier to compete at lower costs if you have had much lower upfront costs in building up industrial infrastructure, R&D, etc. It is worth noting that this number is a floor, leaving a lot out. Things like below market land costs, utilities not to mention an entire upstream supply chain also being heavily subsidized.
If we stick with the source you linked, it is almost baffling that you are so highly selective with the information and absolute with your conclusion.
However, there is a substantial difference in magnitude. Chinese OEMs simply get a lot more state support than Western rivals. Since 2022, Tesla has reported no grant income in China, while BYD’s subsidy income has risen sharply—accounting for 35% of net income in 2025, up from 26% in 2024. By comparison, between 2019 and 2022, when Tesla received Chinese state aid, Tesla’s disclosed grants amounted to roughly 2% of net income over the same period. This pattern is consistent with the European Commission’s findings in its anti-subsidy investigation into Chinese EV exports (Table 1) which found that Chinese OEMs disproportionally benefit from Chinese state aid.
According to your own source subsidies are propping up a third of BYD's profit. So I am honestly not sure why we are trying to pretend that subsidies aren't a large part of why Chinese EV manufacturing is being able to be so extremely competitive on pricing right now. Even more so given you have no trouble calling EU import tariffs absurd without blushing
They are different sides of the very same coin, so it just seems silly to me to call one out while downplaying the other.
Because industrial policy to kickstart an industry and straight up per unit subsidies are very different. The latter is fundamentally unsustainable. It means that the product is a net negative in...
Because industrial policy to kickstart an industry and straight up per unit subsidies are very different. The latter is fundamentally unsustainable. It means that the product is a net negative in margin, that every car sold is draining the pockets of Chinese taxpayers.
Which is not what's happening. The CCP has helped the industry with cheap loans and easy capital for R&D, which is great for them. That's what we do all the time in the US, it just doesn't work half the time. That's exactly what the CHIPS act was - industrial policy to aid the silicon industry in the US.
China isn't paying off some of the bill for every EV they sell. Rather, the government put the money up so that the companies could become efficient.
Another way to look at it is, would I want the US to do the same?
Would I want the US to literally pay part of Ford's margin on EVs? Hell no. That's just subsidizing car owners. A huge waste of money. A mirage.
Would I want the US to fund and encourage EV development? To make car manufacturing more efficient? Hell yes! That's an investment that continues to pay off.
That is one way of hand waving away the fact that these subsidies are ongoing and, as I already included, are propping up a third of BYD's profit. This is up from 26%, meaning that the number is...
Because industrial policy to kickstart an industry and straight up per unit subsidies are very different. The latter is fundamentally unsustainable.
That is one way of hand waving away the fact that these subsidies are ongoing and, as I already included, are propping up a third of BYD's profit. This is up from 26%, meaning that the number is growing, not shrinking while they are making these dirt cheap cars. If we were talking about "kickstarting" an industry you'd expect that number to taper off as the company matures and becomes self-efficient.
And, again, this is just for BYD itself. A large part of the supply chain is subsidized in similar ways as well, meaning that even if they didn't get subsidized directly they would still be able to compete based on lower component costs like batteries.
China isn't paying off some of the bill for every EV they sell. Rather, the government put the money up so that the companies could become efficient.
These companies are not standing on their own right now. The end product is not directly subsidized, that we agree on, there is no car being sold at a much lower price than it did cost to manufacture. But, given all other information available including your report, it is also clear that for a large part is just a shift to ongoing subsidies in other areas including supply chains. In the longer term, when China does expect these companies to be completely to stand on their own I am willing to bet that prices of these cars will go up again.
I have no doubt that these companies are efficient in some ways as well. However, I highly doubt they are efficient to the point that they will be able to keep undercutting car industries across the globe as they are doing now (Not just the US and the EU).
Is that any different than how Tesla makes 40% of its profit from EV credits? https://insideevs.com/news/742024/tesla-regulatory-sales-profit/. That's money directly from the US treasury's pocket....
Is that any different than how Tesla makes 40% of its profit from EV credits? https://insideevs.com/news/742024/tesla-regulatory-sales-profit/. That's money directly from the US treasury's pocket. The Model 3 is still not remotely competitive in price, even though more of Tesla's net profit is propped up by the US government.
The market price of the car depends on supply and demand; it's certainly very possible that market prices for Chinese EVs will go up as their reputation goes up, but the point is on the bill of materials. It's undeniable the BoM of Chinese EVs is far, far lower than US manufacturers.
And secondly, to go back to the overall point, the fact that China is pouring money into the EV manufacturing industry is great. It's not cheating, it's fantastic. The US and EU need to fight fire with fire - not tariffs, but subsidies of their own. Not only is moving to electricity beneficial for a number of reasons (such as efficiency, as electric motors can be 80-90% efficient vs the abysmal 20% efficiency of ICE), but battery technology is going to be critical in scaling solar up.
However, I highly doubt they are efficient to the point that they will be able to keep undercutting car industries across the globe as they are doing now (Not just the US and the EU).
That will depend on the US and EU. They're efficient because China is extremely good at making batteries and electric motors and all the rest are commodities at this point. It simply costs far less to manufacture a battery in China than in the US or EU.
Will they do some industrial policy of their own, or will this go the way of solar panels? That's ultimately not on China. They're doing what's smart and sustainable.
Can we stop shifting goal posts and arguments for a moment? Your entire argument so far is "no, it isn't subsidies" and now you are going "well yeah, but Tesla is also doing the same thing". Which...
Can we stop shifting goal posts and arguments for a moment? Your entire argument so far is "no, it isn't subsidies" and now you are going "well yeah, but Tesla is also doing the same thing". Which is just one manufacture while I am explicitly targeting global car manufacturing (not just the US or EU).
It's undeniable the BoM of Chinese EVs is far, far lower than US manufacturers.
Yes, I said as much in my previous comment and before that. There is also a reason why the BoM is far lower as we also have touched on.
It's not cheating, it's fantastic. The US and EU need to fight fire with fire - not tariffs, but subsidies of their own. Not only is moving to electricity beneficial for a number of reasons (such as efficiency, as electric motors can be 80-90% efficient vs the abysmal 20% efficiency of ICE), but battery technology is going to be critical in scaling solar up.
Okay, straight up. Where does this suddenly come from? The first sentence I can place in the discussion we have had so far, the rest feels artificially injected. Where have I argued against investments and moving to electric, like at all?
Investments in industries I am all far. But there is a line where you are no longer investing in them but are allowing them to undercut competing industries in a way that has nothing to do with supply demand. Basically the difference between what you have been claiming (kickstarting an industry) and ongoing subsidies doing much more than that. The latter is what I am still seeing and where I don't think it is as ridiculous for the EU to impose tariffs at the time being.
Again from your own source
This pattern is consistent with the European Commission’s findings in its anti-subsidy investigation into Chinese EV exports (Table 1) which found that Chinese OEMs disproportionally benefit from Chinese state aid.
In that situation, even if you invest in your own industries you also want them to compete in an even playing field. That is where I see tariffs coming in, because Chinese companies clearly aren't just doing it entirely on their own merits either.
Anyway, point is clear enough, I am bowing out of this conversation.
But that isn't being sold in the US, correct? That car is also currently closer to $30,000 in the EU, and the article is from 2024. Why do you think they are comparable?
But that isn't being sold in the US, correct? That car is also currently closer to $30,000 in the EU, and the article is from 2024. Why do you think they are comparable?
It’s $30k in the EU because the EU applies absurd tariffs to imported Chinese cars. For a more apples to apples comparison, that BYD model is ~20k usd in Mexico and ~16k usd in Australia. It’s...
It’s $30k in the EU because the EU applies absurd tariffs to imported Chinese cars. For a more apples to apples comparison, that BYD model is ~20k usd in Mexico and ~16k usd in Australia.
It’s more just about how far behind the US is at EV manufacturing. This is an oversized golf cart at a price point that is just $2k more than what a sedan costs in Australia, another developed country.
As for its market relevancy, the fact that it’s not road safe is most of the US (including cities - even cities have many many roads >35mph speed limits) is what it is.
Huh. I saw one of these in the wild for the first time just a few days ago. There is absolutely no. fucking. way I would drive one. I'm happy sharing the road with cars as a cyclist, because on my...
Huh. I saw one of these in the wild for the first time just a few days ago. There is absolutely no. fucking. way I would drive one. I'm happy sharing the road with cars as a cyclist, because on my bike I'm relatively high up and can make eye contact with drivers. Also my lights are high up and my helmet has reflective strips and so on. I am visible. But this thing is so low and so small as to basically disappear into traffic. It has almost no protection for it's "riders" in case of an accident. Sure, crashing at 19mph on your own isn't so bad but it's the car that hits you which is where things get nasty.
I'm all for small EV city cars but this is a step too far, purely on the basis of safety.
...i commute tiny roadsters in a sea of oversized trucks and you absolutely need to drive like a motorcycle for personal safety: assume that nobody can see you and pull through traffic above the...
...i commute tiny roadsters in a sea of oversized trucks and you absolutely need to drive like a motorcycle for personal safety: assume that nobody can see you and pull through traffic above the 85% flow rate so you control the relative motion of vehicles around you, rather than wait for them to plow through oblivious to your presence...
...that doesn't necessarily take much power, but if you can't accelerate to sixty in ten seconds or reach 85 miles per hour, you're going to struggle to keep up with basic highway safety in a tiny car...
I used to drive an MG Midget, which with it's roof up was probably about the same height as this. Maybe a bit shorter. But it is much longer, and wider (and even the Midget is small by modern...
I used to drive an MG Midget, which with it's roof up was probably about the same height as this. Maybe a bit shorter. But it is much longer, and wider (and even the Midget is small by modern roadster standards). It never felt incredibly safe and did require the kind of assertive driving you're talking about, but I never really felt invisible. I drove a Smart Car for a bit and a Fiat Panda and they were similar. Small, but OK. Nippy too, so feel easy to get out of the way of trouble.
But the amount of space the Topolino doesn't take up is ridiculous, even compared to other small cars. I barely spotted the one I encountered and I was in my Transit at the time, which has excellent visibility.
...the MX-5 is actually our large car; the elise can clear trailer undercarriages and some road barricades even though it appears the same size at casual glance... ...but yeah, either one will get...
...the MX-5 is actually our large car; the elise can clear trailer undercarriages and some road barricades even though it appears the same size at casual glance...
...but yeah, either one will get casually mown over if you keep pace with traffic, or backed-into on surface streets; defensive driving and quick reflexes are a must...
This is the EV equivalent of driving one of those Little Tikes Cozy Coupe toy cars around. The only place where I can see this being even remotely suitable for the road is in Welsh towns, where...
This is the EV equivalent of driving one of those Little Tikes Cozy Coupe toy cars around.
The only place where I can see this being even remotely suitable for the road is in Welsh towns, where there are 20mph speed limits in force on their residential and built-up roads. Maybe you could get away with it in other towns that have primarily 30mph limits if you buy the conversion kit...
It feels like this car only exists for people who want to smugly virtue signal to everybody that they're saving the planet, by slithering along a road at 19mph to the annoyance of every other motorist. It's otherwise a two-seater with practically nonexistent boot space and pitiful range, which doesn't even make it useful as a city car.
Ah. Less “the cheap EV revolution is here” and more “will they even allow this on public roads in Texas?”
Genuinely struggle to think of where a vehicle that tops out at that speed would have a use case in my state, but I’m sure it’ll find its niche.
WA has a category for vehicles not allowed on highways, kei trucks tend to have one of those plates. Admittedly they can at least get up to ~55 mph. Central Seattle/Portland I could maybe see this as a little grocery-getter / mobility aid? Hopefully it has the torque to maintain speed up hills. Would think something like a Gator utility vehicle would be a better form factor.
Missed that, I stopped reading at “I can bicycle faster than that if I hustle” so thanks for pointing it out! Still, yeah… 35 mph is just above the slowest speed in my town, which bottoms out at 30.
One niche might be car-sharing services in cities. When I lived in Chicago long ago, I didn't have a car, and neither did my roommates. But I signed up for a car-sharing service. Which we often used for grocery shopping or transporting somewhat bigger/bulkier things we didn't want to or couldn't transport over public transit. Plus being small, these Fiats can be parked pretty much anywhere, ready for members to use.
Though looking at how small this is...Does this even have enough space for groceries? Like I went to Costco the other day. I didn't buy a crazy amount of stuff (I live by myself). Aside from a big pack of paper towels, everything else fit into like 6 reusable grocery bags. Which is my pretty typical haul, even from a normal grocery store. I don't know if I could fit all that into this Topolino. I don't see a trunk or even much space behind the seats, after all.
I mean it's not legal to drive in most cities. Even with the speed modification, it's only legal for roads with a speed limit <=35 mph speed limit. Now, with traffic, cars may be going less than 35 mph, but I struggle to find any cities where you won't go on at least one road with a speed limit >35 mph on the way to a grocery store.
For this kind of city-only car to be viable, it needs to at least be able to hit 55-60 mph top speeds. That may make it illegal on highways but at least legal on pretty much all local roads.
I think you could be ok in a lot of cities if it were capped at 45 but didn't struggle to hit that speed. You'd annoy people on 50 or 55 mph limit roads, but those aren't THAT common.
I just can't think of a lot of places this can go if limited to 25 mph. I can't legally leave my neighborhood in this vehicle since most non-residential roads around here have limits at 40 mph. At 25 mph and only 2 seats, you might as well just e-bike it.
Well, electric golf carts are fairly popular here in wealthier neighborhoods, especially for kids. I don't see who would pay $14k for that though, I imagine there's already plenty of competition.
A nice golf cart is already getting into the price range for the Topolino. For something cutesy that can be had fully enclosed with a hard shell (with more standard features), this ain’t a bad price.
Oh I don’t know, I think some would pay for the cute factor, the fact that it’s enclosed unlike a golf cart and the “it’s European” flair. Maybe it’ll be like the Prius where it kinda became a status symbol?
Maybe for intra-city food delivery?
...NEVs have been a thing since the turn of the millennium but, like e-bikes, at a certain point the resemblance to proper road cars will attract greater regulatory scrutiny...
...they're surprisingly ubiquitous in semi-rural texas suburbs as supplemental family transportation; i usually see them at households which already have one or two large pickup trucks and maybe a boat or off-road motorbikes as a more practical alternative for a secondary neighborhood runabout...i could see something like this getting a lot more primary utility in urban centers, but parking and charging infrastructure are a challenge in those dense environments...
Tbh this just makes the US car industry look bad. This thing has a top speed of 19 mph and cost the same as a full BYD sedan, that can go at highway speeds, and has 4 seats.
The BYD you mention costs 14 grand only?
Yes
https://electrek.co/2024/02/23/byd-launches-new-dolphin-ev-14k-price-war/
At least we banned them so our automakers don't have to compete.
God bless America
Let's not pretend that these cars aren't heavily subsidized though in order to undercut non Chinese manufactures. To be clear, not saying that US car manufacturing is without issues (far from it). But even if they were competent and trying to compete I highly doubt they (or other companies across the globe) can come close in pricing.
The degree to which government subsidies directly affect margin is vastly overstated
https://rhg.com/research/why-are-chinese-evs-so-cheap/
The subsidies are important, but not on the unit price. Government money helps safety - it’s a backstop to allow entrepreneurs to take risks. It’s also immensely helpful to kickstart expensive manufacturing industries like batteries.
But it’s not as if the Chinese government is paying for 20% of every BYD sold.
Directly? Of course not. But China did spend roughly $230 billion to build up the industry (note, this is from a 2024 report the number is likely higher). It is much easier to compete at lower costs if you have had much lower upfront costs in building up industrial infrastructure, R&D, etc. It is worth noting that this number is a floor, leaving a lot out. Things like below market land costs, utilities not to mention an entire upstream supply chain also being heavily subsidized.
If we stick with the source you linked, it is almost baffling that you are so highly selective with the information and absolute with your conclusion.
According to your own source subsidies are propping up a third of BYD's profit. So I am honestly not sure why we are trying to pretend that subsidies aren't a large part of why Chinese EV manufacturing is being able to be so extremely competitive on pricing right now. Even more so given you have no trouble calling EU import tariffs absurd without blushing
They are different sides of the very same coin, so it just seems silly to me to call one out while downplaying the other.
Because industrial policy to kickstart an industry and straight up per unit subsidies are very different. The latter is fundamentally unsustainable. It means that the product is a net negative in margin, that every car sold is draining the pockets of Chinese taxpayers.
Which is not what's happening. The CCP has helped the industry with cheap loans and easy capital for R&D, which is great for them. That's what we do all the time in the US, it just doesn't work half the time. That's exactly what the CHIPS act was - industrial policy to aid the silicon industry in the US.
China isn't paying off some of the bill for every EV they sell. Rather, the government put the money up so that the companies could become efficient.
Another way to look at it is, would I want the US to do the same?
Would I want the US to literally pay part of Ford's margin on EVs? Hell no. That's just subsidizing car owners. A huge waste of money. A mirage.
Would I want the US to fund and encourage EV development? To make car manufacturing more efficient? Hell yes! That's an investment that continues to pay off.
That is one way of hand waving away the fact that these subsidies are ongoing and, as I already included, are propping up a third of BYD's profit. This is up from 26%, meaning that the number is growing, not shrinking while they are making these dirt cheap cars. If we were talking about "kickstarting" an industry you'd expect that number to taper off as the company matures and becomes self-efficient.
And, again, this is just for BYD itself. A large part of the supply chain is subsidized in similar ways as well, meaning that even if they didn't get subsidized directly they would still be able to compete based on lower component costs like batteries.
These companies are not standing on their own right now. The end product is not directly subsidized, that we agree on, there is no car being sold at a much lower price than it did cost to manufacture. But, given all other information available including your report, it is also clear that for a large part is just a shift to ongoing subsidies in other areas including supply chains. In the longer term, when China does expect these companies to be completely to stand on their own I am willing to bet that prices of these cars will go up again.
I have no doubt that these companies are efficient in some ways as well. However, I highly doubt they are efficient to the point that they will be able to keep undercutting car industries across the globe as they are doing now (Not just the US and the EU).
Is that any different than how Tesla makes 40% of its profit from EV credits? https://insideevs.com/news/742024/tesla-regulatory-sales-profit/. That's money directly from the US treasury's pocket. The Model 3 is still not remotely competitive in price, even though more of Tesla's net profit is propped up by the US government.
The market price of the car depends on supply and demand; it's certainly very possible that market prices for Chinese EVs will go up as their reputation goes up, but the point is on the bill of materials. It's undeniable the BoM of Chinese EVs is far, far lower than US manufacturers.
And secondly, to go back to the overall point, the fact that China is pouring money into the EV manufacturing industry is great. It's not cheating, it's fantastic. The US and EU need to fight fire with fire - not tariffs, but subsidies of their own. Not only is moving to electricity beneficial for a number of reasons (such as efficiency, as electric motors can be 80-90% efficient vs the abysmal 20% efficiency of ICE), but battery technology is going to be critical in scaling solar up.
That will depend on the US and EU. They're efficient because China is extremely good at making batteries and electric motors and all the rest are commodities at this point. It simply costs far less to manufacture a battery in China than in the US or EU.
Will they do some industrial policy of their own, or will this go the way of solar panels? That's ultimately not on China. They're doing what's smart and sustainable.
Can we stop shifting goal posts and arguments for a moment? Your entire argument so far is "no, it isn't subsidies" and now you are going "well yeah, but Tesla is also doing the same thing". Which is just one manufacture while I am explicitly targeting global car manufacturing (not just the US or EU).
Yes, I said as much in my previous comment and before that. There is also a reason why the BoM is far lower as we also have touched on.
Okay, straight up. Where does this suddenly come from? The first sentence I can place in the discussion we have had so far, the rest feels artificially injected. Where have I argued against investments and moving to electric, like at all?
Investments in industries I am all far. But there is a line where you are no longer investing in them but are allowing them to undercut competing industries in a way that has nothing to do with supply demand. Basically the difference between what you have been claiming (kickstarting an industry) and ongoing subsidies doing much more than that. The latter is what I am still seeing and where I don't think it is as ridiculous for the EU to impose tariffs at the time being.
Again from your own source
In that situation, even if you invest in your own industries you also want them to compete in an even playing field. That is where I see tariffs coming in, because Chinese companies clearly aren't just doing it entirely on their own merits either.
Anyway, point is clear enough, I am bowing out of this conversation.
And the Chinese government heavily subsidizes BYD so that the price can be so low and no one else can compete. What's your point?
But that isn't being sold in the US, correct? That car is also currently closer to $30,000 in the EU, and the article is from 2024. Why do you think they are comparable?
It’s $30k in the EU because the EU applies absurd tariffs to imported Chinese cars. For a more apples to apples comparison, that BYD model is ~20k usd in Mexico and ~16k usd in Australia.
It’s more just about how far behind the US is at EV manufacturing. This is an oversized golf cart at a price point that is just $2k more than what a sedan costs in Australia, another developed country.
As for its market relevancy, the fact that it’s not road safe is most of the US (including cities - even cities have many many roads >35mph speed limits) is what it is.
That's incredible. The dolphin is like £22k in the UK, which is nearly $30k. I'd have been in the market for one at ~£10k though, no doubts at all.
Huh. I saw one of these in the wild for the first time just a few days ago. There is absolutely no. fucking. way I would drive one. I'm happy sharing the road with cars as a cyclist, because on my bike I'm relatively high up and can make eye contact with drivers. Also my lights are high up and my helmet has reflective strips and so on. I am visible. But this thing is so low and so small as to basically disappear into traffic. It has almost no protection for it's "riders" in case of an accident. Sure, crashing at 19mph on your own isn't so bad but it's the car that hits you which is where things get nasty.
I'm all for small EV city cars but this is a step too far, purely on the basis of safety.
...i commute tiny roadsters in a sea of oversized trucks and you absolutely need to drive like a motorcycle for personal safety: assume that nobody can see you and pull through traffic above the 85% flow rate so you control the relative motion of vehicles around you, rather than wait for them to plow through oblivious to your presence...
...that doesn't necessarily take much power, but if you can't accelerate to sixty in ten seconds or reach 85 miles per hour, you're going to struggle to keep up with basic highway safety in a tiny car...
I used to drive an MG Midget, which with it's roof up was probably about the same height as this. Maybe a bit shorter. But it is much longer, and wider (and even the Midget is small by modern roadster standards). It never felt incredibly safe and did require the kind of assertive driving you're talking about, but I never really felt invisible. I drove a Smart Car for a bit and a Fiat Panda and they were similar. Small, but OK. Nippy too, so feel easy to get out of the way of trouble.
But the amount of space the Topolino doesn't take up is ridiculous, even compared to other small cars. I barely spotted the one I encountered and I was in my Transit at the time, which has excellent visibility.
Miata?
...the MX-5 is actually our large car; the elise can clear trailer undercarriages and some road barricades even though it appears the same size at casual glance...
...but yeah, either one will get casually mown over if you keep pace with traffic, or backed-into on surface streets; defensive driving and quick reflexes are a must...
Absolutely wild that the Miata is y’all’s large car.
This is the EV equivalent of driving one of those Little Tikes Cozy Coupe toy cars around.
The only place where I can see this being even remotely suitable for the road is in Welsh towns, where there are 20mph speed limits in force on their residential and built-up roads. Maybe you could get away with it in other towns that have primarily 30mph limits if you buy the conversion kit...
It feels like this car only exists for people who want to smugly virtue signal to everybody that they're saving the planet, by slithering along a road at 19mph to the annoyance of every other motorist. It's otherwise a two-seater with practically nonexistent boot space and pitiful range, which doesn't even make it useful as a city car.