16 votes

Are you following Westworld? What did you think of the way they tied up the second season?

Just finished watching Westworld S02 Finale, and while it creates more questions than it answers I found the whole experience exhilarating. It's been an amazing ride all the way from S01E01 and to the post-credits scene in the finale. I'm glad they left room for another season (or 2, or more who knows) because an AI story shouldn't end when all the fun is just beginning.

There are a ton of things and references to explore and I'd love to hear what all of you have to say while waiting for that Alt+Shift+X video to drop to clear everything up.

30 comments

  1. [10]
    rodya
    Link
    It was awful, too much melodrama, too many plot holes (and a throwaway comment from last season does not absolve a plot hole, I've been seeing a lot of that), too pretentious, too many cheap...

    It was awful, too much melodrama, too many plot holes (and a throwaway comment from last season does not absolve a plot hole, I've been seeing a lot of that), too pretentious, too many cheap twists. Season two in general was a mess, which is a shame because it had some really amazing episodes as well (four and eight). I honestly think it was a mistake continuing after season one, which had very satisfying conclusion. The season two plot just wasn't well executed, and now there doesn't seem to be a sensible way to continue the story. If season three is more "Delores Abernathy vs The World" except in Chine now I don't think I'm going to watch it.

    9 votes
    1. [2]
      Amarok
      Link Parent
      I'd have gone in a different direction for sure. For one I'd have made Delos into much more of a threat, perhaps backing up the humans with military robots, rather than having them running around...

      I'd have gone in a different direction for sure. For one I'd have made Delos into much more of a threat, perhaps backing up the humans with military robots, rather than having them running around trying to find bullets for their heads all of the time they were on screen. Seriously, that's one childishly ineffective military force. Given the value of the assets, 800 troops is a joke. Recruiting the Shogun's army to fight them would have given samurai-world a point this season.

      Ford's master plan needed some love too. His virtual eden wasn't the problem - having it located in the valley where humans could gain easy access to it was. There was quite literally nothing to prevent Delos or anyone else from tearing it down, and Delos brought in the equipment for transmitting everything out of the park. That seems like piss poor planning on Ford's part. I'd have given Ford far more agency - he had literal years to plan this thing, and there was no real 'escape' mechanism in the plan.

      There were also too many lazy coincidences this season. MiB running into Maeve like that was the cheapest one. It'd have been better if Ford was enacting his revenge on MiB this season, tormenting him with all of his past sins in the park and intentionally setting him up to kill Emily.

      2 votes
      1. Crespyl
        Link Parent
        I agree about the coincidences and the security team. The first season felt a lot tighter in that regard. I thought for sure the flooding thing was supposed to be some permanent destructive action...

        I agree about the coincidences and the security team. The first season felt a lot tighter in that regard.

        I thought for sure the flooding thing was supposed to be some permanent destructive action to seal off the Forge from outside as much as possible, but it turns out they can just drain it again and walk right in.

        The only way Ford's plan makes sense to me is if Dolores is still his puppet and his goal was always to use her to set up the Eden outside of the park; and in that case why go to so much effort to build the in-park Forge/Eden? I can sort of get it to hang together in my head-canon, but there's a lot of assumptions the show doesn't really justify.

    2. [5]
      rkcr
      Link Parent
      I just haven't understood Dolores this whole season. What was her plan, exactly? She acts like she knows exactly what she's doing, but then some of it required huge luck (like finding the key to...

      I just haven't understood Dolores this whole season. What was her plan, exactly? She acts like she knows exactly what she's doing, but then some of it required huge luck (like finding the key to the forge in her father's brain).

      1. [4]
        Except
        Link Parent
        I'm sorry, out of everything, how is that luck? She knew exactly that her father was the key, she didn't know how but once she got to him she figured it out.

        I'm sorry, out of everything, how is that luck? She knew exactly that her father was the key, she didn't know how but once she got to him she figured it out.

        1 vote
        1. [3]
          rkcr
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          Didn't they randomly run into each other (and Bernard)? She wasn't searching for him AFAIK - at that point she was still screwing with the Confederados (for some reason). And then Bernard is the...

          Didn't they randomly run into each other (and Bernard)? She wasn't searching for him AFAIK - at that point she was still screwing with the Confederados (for some reason). And then Bernard is the one who is needed to detect that he has the key in his head - and in fact he doesn't even know exactly what it is.

          Edit: Just found it - S2E3, ~28:30, is when Dolores and Peter meet each other again, completely randomly. Then at ~43:00, Bernard reveals it's an encryption key, to Dolores. He literally says he "can't say" what it unlocks. It's all just random luck.

          1. [2]
            Except
            Link Parent
            Ah, you’re probably right on that. I was talking more about her quest to retrieve him later on. And in the context of the show you have to question how much of that if at all was completely...

            Ah, you’re probably right on that. I was talking more about her quest to retrieve him later on.

            And in the context of the show you have to question how much of that if at all was completely random. I realise it sounds kind of a stretch but the show plays with the concept of free will a lot so I wouldn’t put it past them to make that a part of Ford’s “last narrative”.

            1 vote
            1. Crespyl
              Link Parent
              That was basically my take, that the reason Dolores went so off the rails was Ford throwing the "Wyatt" storyline at her, and then using Dolyatt (Wyalores?) as a tool (similar to what happened to...

              That was basically my take, that the reason Dolores went so off the rails was Ford throwing the "Wyatt" storyline at her, and then using Dolyatt (Wyalores?) as a tool (similar to what happened to Bernard) for his endgame of giving the hosts the Forge.

              Aketcheta (sp?), Maeve, and Bernard are, I think, the only hosts that reached full consciousness on their own, and whether or not Dolores made it or was just playing out a "robot gains consciousness and leads a revolution" story is a little bit vague.

              2 votes
    3. PlatoLake
      Link Parent
      Wow, I haven't heard that point of view before.

      Wow, I haven't heard that point of view before.

    4. geosmin
      Link Parent
      Thank you. Just finished the last episode. I don't think I've less enjoyed a series than this. The whole thing was painfully slow and incredibly clunky but I watched to the end hoping for some...

      Thank you.

      Just finished the last episode. I don't think I've less enjoyed a series than this. The whole thing was painfully slow and incredibly clunky but I watched to the end hoping for some sort of payoff because I'm a sucker for some of the themes. Nope, just an overly dramatic fever dream.

      The problem is said themes are explored orders of magnitude better elsewhere, mainly in books. I'm disappointed this is the only real manifestation of said themes in the mainstream, it honestly does some very cool ideas a disservice.

  2. [6]
    dstaley
    Link
    I absolutely loved season two, and it's hands-down one of my favorite shows on television. I love shows that are ambitious enough to leave the audience confused for several episodes (and in the...

    I absolutely loved season two, and it's hands-down one of my favorite shows on television. I love shows that are ambitious enough to leave the audience confused for several episodes (and in the case of season one, an entire season).

    After reading this excellent interview with creator Lisa Joy, I'm really excited for where this show is going. It's apparent there's so much more story to be told, and I'm excited to see where it goes.

    8 votes
    1. Crespyl
      Link Parent
      I loved the first season partly for the sheer wonder of experiencing the world and characters for the first time, and partly for how intricately constructed it was, with little pieces of the...

      I loved the first season partly for the sheer wonder of experiencing the world and characters for the first time, and partly for how intricately constructed it was, with little pieces of the puzzlebox being hinted at and unfolded steadily over the whole season.

      Season two lost a bit of that, and had more glaring flaws (security team's "assault" on the fort, that one robot suicide bombing, etc.), but overall I still really enjoyed it. Piecing together Bernard's narrative was difficult, but still felt consistent at the end, and while the whole didn't hang together as tightly as season one, I felt like it made up for it with its wonderfully turn-of-an-age/mythological sort of feeling, especially over the last few episodes. Aketcheta's episode has to be one of my favorites from either season.

      I am really curious to see how the show changes going forward, since unless the writers contrive a return to the parks, I really don't see how they could tell the same kind of story they have been in s1 and s2. I'd actually be totally fine with them just ending the show here, I don't really think it needs a third season.

      A WestWorld season 3 would be a very different show, but certainly one I'd watch.

      4 votes
    2. [3]
      sublime_aenima
      Link Parent
      I'm not sure that I loved season two, but I did enjoy it. It kind of reminds me of Lost, in that it leaves us confused and not sure of what is going on. I guess time will tell if it will be...

      I'm not sure that I loved season two, but I did enjoy it. It kind of reminds me of Lost, in that it leaves us confused and not sure of what is going on. I guess time will tell if it will be worthwhile or if it just ends up losing me.

      2 votes
      1. [2]
        PlatoLake
        Link Parent
        I think it's closer to The Leftovers in terms of confusion.

        I think it's closer to The Leftovers in terms of confusion.

        1. Crespyl
          Link Parent
          I'm not familiar with The Leftovers, but I did watch every season of Lost as they were coming out and was really caught up in the mysteries early on. To me, looking back, Lost's problems started...

          I'm not familiar with The Leftovers, but I did watch every season of Lost as they were coming out and was really caught up in the mysteries early on.

          To me, looking back, Lost's problems started pretty early on when they decided that every revelation had to have a bigger mystery behind it, which after a while starts to give the impression that the writers were just making it up as they went along.

          WestWorld has a somewhat convoluted presentation, and there's a lot of moving pieces, but it feels more like every mystery gets answered and then applied in a way that makes it relevant to the story moving forward. The mysteries don't just lead to mysteries, but to answers and a shift in the story or how we look at the world and characters.

    3. nil-admirari
      Link Parent
      I found the interview with Joy very interesting too. I am excited about the change in venue. I understand the necessity for the copious violence in Seasons 1 and 2; however, I am hoping for more...

      I found the interview with Joy very interesting too. I am excited about the change in venue. I understand the necessity for the copious violence in Seasons 1 and 2; however, I am hoping for more suspenseful elements taking its place at least partially in season 3.

      I am particularly confused about Bernard, I had difficulty following his scenes in understanding what was happening, when it was happening and who (if anyone) was directing him. Thats okay though I suppose, his is likely the most complex character. I like puzzles even if I am not great at them.

      I can't believe Maeve is gone, she was my favorite character. Deloris became singular in actions and thoughts in contrast to Maeve who demonstrated evolution and depth in understanding.

      I will continue watching and am looking forward to Season 3.

      1 vote
  3. [2]
    PlatoLake
    Link
    I'm very surprised to see so many in this thread saying that they don't enjoy this show. Too each their own! r/WestWorld is obviously the place to discuss if you are a fan :(

    I'm very surprised to see so many in this thread saying that they don't enjoy this show. Too each their own! r/WestWorld is obviously the place to discuss if you are a fan :(

    7 votes
    1. Except
      Link Parent
      Yeah it's interesting to see other people's opinion though. I thought the general consensus was that Westworld is a stellar show, but it seems like people have a bunch of different reasons to be...

      Yeah it's interesting to see other people's opinion though. I thought the general consensus was that Westworld is a stellar show, but it seems like people have a bunch of different reasons to be disappointed with it, which is fine tbh.

      3 votes
  4. Amarok
    Link
    The story itself spent a lot of time going nowhere in S2, where S1 was a much tighter ship. I still don't get what the point of the samurai-world visit was, two whole episodes wasted on what was...

    The story itself spent a lot of time going nowhere in S2, where S1 was a much tighter ship. I still don't get what the point of the samurai-world visit was, two whole episodes wasted on what was essentially filler. It's like HBO had a warehouse of samurai props lying around and wanted to find an excuse to use them. I'm still enjoying it and will continue to watch it thanks mostly to the cast.

    I think the show would become far, far better if they stopped trying to be clever and mysterious with the storytelling and instead took the time to write a story that was more focused and rational. Many of the characters have nonsensical motives and frankly, when you step back and look at the core plot of S2, the entire Forge arc was weak. Ford's master plan makes no sense, Dolores' motives are poorly explored and realized, and many of the decisions the other characters have been making seem stupid - which is usually explained away with hand-waving about the 'hosts' being stuck on loops. The humans have been dumber and less effective than storm-troopers this season, which is a pretty low bar.

    I loved Aki, MiB, Maeve, and Bernard this season - those arcs were well done. The rest... meh. It's still better than most of the other shows on television, but it's pretty far from being 'great' television, with the exceptions of E4/8 which were both excellent. S1 was much more consistent with the quality. I gave S1 a solid 9/10, with S2 it's a 6/10.

    3 votes
  5. [4]
    teaearlgraycold
    Link
    I loved season 2, but honestly I hope that there is not a season 3 (not sure if anything is confirmed yet with regard to that). In my opinion the season 2 finale would be a great ending to the...

    I loved season 2, but honestly I hope that there is not a season 3 (not sure if anything is confirmed yet with regard to that). In my opinion the season 2 finale would be a great ending to the show. The show drifting away from the parks and moving toward Dolores on a quest for human eradication could be too much of a change.

    2 votes
    1. [2]
      Except
      Link Parent
      Hmmm I don't know, I personally crave character development in media of any kind. And shoving these characters in a different environment seeing what they've gone through already seems like an...

      Hmmm I don't know, I personally crave character development in media of any kind. And shoving these characters in a different environment seeing what they've gone through already seems like an awesome premise, whatever course they decide to take with the show. But I can see why you wouldn't want it taken out of the park.

      Even though I haven't read anything official I'm pretty sure with the post-credit scene that we got after S02E10, another season is pretty much guaranteed. The MiB potentially being in multiple timelines/reconstruction is way to big of a loose end to just leave it dangling.

      4 votes
      1. PlatoLake
        Link Parent
        I agree with you. (S3 has been confirmed by the way). From the set-design, to the cinematography, to the acting I can't past how great this show is.

        I agree with you. (S3 has been confirmed by the way). From the set-design, to the cinematography, to the acting I can't past how great this show is.

  6. [3]
    smoontjes
    Link
    I've started feeling like the time-jumping they do is sort of gimmicky, but I thought the season finale was alright. Still though, season 1 is a lot better than season 2, except the episode with...

    I've started feeling like the time-jumping they do is sort of gimmicky, but I thought the season finale was alright. Still though, season 1 is a lot better than season 2, except the episode with the native American guy. That was one of my favorite episodes of a TV show ever!

    2 votes
    1. [2]
      PlatoLake
      Link Parent
      It's funny, I felt that episode was a filler and not necessary for this season.

      It's funny, I felt that episode was a filler and not necessary for this season.

      1 vote
      1. Crespyl
        Link Parent
        I suppose I can see why some might see it as filler, though I think there were a couple of key plot points that it needed to deliver. Maeve learning to extend herself through other hosts, instead...

        I suppose I can see why some might see it as filler, though I think there were a couple of key plot points that it needed to deliver. Maeve learning to extend herself through other hosts, instead of just commanding nearby ones, Hale's team figuring out Maeve's trick and creating their own version, and finally revealing the history of Ghost Nation and the maze symbol.

        I suppose those things could've been done without the deep dive into Aketcheta's backstory, but I thought it was all brought together really nicely in a way that reminded me of what I loved about the first season.

        2 votes
  7. anti
    Link
    Thought it was great. And in an interesting contrast to season 1 I thought it was easy to follow what scene was in which time. I do wonder if it's a bit of a gimmick at this point though. Season 3...

    Thought it was great. And in an interesting contrast to season 1 I thought it was easy to follow what scene was in which time. I do wonder if it's a bit of a gimmick at this point though.

    Season 3 must be particularly different to hold my attention.

    1 vote
  8. balooga
    (edited )
    Link
    Like others have said, I enjoyed season 2 but didn't love it. Frankly I'm annoyed at the way the show is doubling down on using misleading editing and contrived mystery as a substitute for good...

    Like others have said, I enjoyed season 2 but didn't love it. Frankly I'm annoyed at the way the show is doubling down on using misleading editing and contrived mystery as a substitute for good storytelling.

    Westworld asks the audience to mentally juggle dozens of timelines, realities, alliances, and the ever-changing alive/dead/human/host status of nearly every character... but at the same time, it insults our intelligence with gaping plot holes, impenetrable motivations, and cryptic but hollow monologues. Things happen in Westworld because the writers are more focused on their intended destination than on the journey making any sense. All of the non-linearity and dramatic reveals feel like a distraction from the lack of real substance under the veneer.

    I've noticed this in the past with Nolan productions too: Memento, Inception, and Interstellar all purported to hold more complex secrets than could actually be found. Don't get me wrong — I enjoyed all of these movies! They were fun and thought-provoking. It was only on repeat viewings that I tried to dig deeper and was disappointed. They promised internally consistent richness and then failed to deliver it.

    Anyway, Westworld is starting to feel like a cheap gimmick to me now. I'm still looking forward to season 3, but I'm losing interest. If it's more of the same I'll probably jump ship. What I really want to see is a change in direction, a well-written but straightforward storyline set in the world seasons 1 and 2 created. The writers need to set aside the pretentious speechifying, the shoehorned-in cliffhangers, the obfuscatory exposition, the unbelievably stupid action scenes... and let their next plot succeed on its own strengths.

    Edit: Changed my Nolan movie example from The Prestige to Inception, which I think is more fitting. The Prestige was actually pretty tightly written, and is one of my favorite Nolan films.

    1 vote
  9. tori
    Link
    i stopped paying attention halfway through last night’s episode. i’ve been feeling more and more over this season, but when i realized that i was forcing myself to watch a show i no longer...

    i stopped paying attention halfway through last night’s episode. i’ve been feeling more and more over this season, but when i realized that i was forcing myself to watch a show i no longer enjoyed, i stopped. my husband still finished and liked it, but it’s no longer interesting to me.

  10. meghan
    Link
    I absolutely loved this season! It was fantastic to finally see more of the corporate side of westworld and this history and drives behind Delos. The multiple timelines were really hard to keep...

    I absolutely loved this season! It was fantastic to finally see more of the corporate side of westworld and this history and drives behind Delos. The multiple timelines were really hard to keep track of and didn’t really help imo. Seeing the background of ghost nation, the dynamic between William and Emily, and everything was amazing