9 votes

Star Trek fans: what's your position on the amount of technological mumbo jumbo?

I'm (re)watching Star Trek: The Next Generation, and after a few episodes I started to tune out every time they detail how some specific solution is possible. There's little care with consistency, everything is bent to fit the story. "Oh, I get it, if I reverse the trusters and focus the beams using a microwaved non-Euclidian logarithmic abstraction, we can get the shields back and fix the time distillation!".

I know Star Trek is soft sci-fi, but come on! If it's all meaningless, at least keep it to a minimum. Focus on the interesting bits: the politics, the culture, the philosophical exploration, the juicy paradoxes.

I still love Star Trek and I definitely don't want it to become hard sci-fi, but sometimes it feels like /r/VXJunkies/...

72 comments

  1. [15]
    DanBC
    Link
    There's a great blog from Charlie Stross about "teching the tech": http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2009/10/why_i_hate_star_trek.html I can see it working if they've created a universe...

    There's a great blog from Charlie Stross about "teching the tech": http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2009/10/why_i_hate_star_trek.html

    I can see it working if they've created a universe with consistant rules, but often they're inconsistant within their own universe. It means that any jeopardy the characters are in doesn't create any tension, because they can always escape it because TECH.

    ---begin quote---

    At his recent keynote speech at the New York Television Festival, former Star Trek writer and creator of the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica Ron Moore revealed the secret formula to writing for Trek.

    He described how the writers would just insert "tech" into the scripts whenever they needed to resolve a story or plot line, then they'd have consultants fill in the appropriate words (aka technobabble) later.

    "It became the solution to so many plot lines and so many stories," Moore said. "It was so mechanical that we had science consultants who would just come up with the words for us and we'd just write 'tech' in the script. You know, Picard would say 'Commander La Forge, tech the tech to the warp drive.' I'm serious. If you look at those scripts, you'll see that."

    Moore then went on to describe how a typical script might read before the science consultants did their thing:

    La Forge: "Captain, the tech is overteching."

    Picard: "Well, route the auxiliary tech to the tech, Mr. La Forge."

    La Forge: "No, Captain. Captain, I've tried to tech the tech, and it won't work."

    Picard: "Well, then we're doomed."

    "And then Data pops up and says, 'Captain, there is a theory that if you tech the other tech ... '" Moore said. "It's a rhythm and it's a structure, and the words are meaningless. It's not about anything except just sort of going through this dance of how they tech their way out of it."

    17 votes
    1. [4]
      cfabbro
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      That definitely sounds accurate and I wouldn't be surprised if it's the unadulterated truth. I have watched every Star Trek series (other than Discovery) at least a half-dozen times, have been to...

      That definitely sounds accurate and I wouldn't be surprised if it's the unadulterated truth.

      I have watched every Star Trek series (other than Discovery) at least a half-dozen times, have been to a number of Trek cons over the decades, and I even own several official tech manuals (yes, I am one of those trekkies)... and as much as I absolutely adore them, I think its still important to recognize and acknowledge their flaws. And one of the most glaring of which is undeniably the writers' frequent use of tech jargon to camouflage deus ex machina moments whenever they wrote themselves into a corner and couldn't come up with a non-contrived way back out... which can be pretty obnoxious, lead to incredibly unsatisfying conclusions, and deflation of dramatic tension. Don't get me wrong, the writing in all the series' is often absolutely brilliant too, especially the sociopolitical commentary and human (and alien) interest elements, but IMO there is also no denying that the writers were also incredibly lazy and sloppy at times as well.

      So I can see where you are coming from, @mrbig, and think your criticism is not without merit. I often tune out through huge chunks of each series whenever I rewatch them as well. But I still love them, even with all their flaws. When Trek gets it right, it really gets it right, and that can be magical.

      10 votes
      1. [3]
        mrbig
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        That's a good assessment. Another thing I find amusing, to say the least, is that the Vulcans in TNG (I'm in season 4 of my rewatch) seem much less logical than I remembered. Unlike Data, they're...

        That's a good assessment. Another thing I find amusing, to say the least, is that the Vulcans in TNG (I'm in season 4 of my rewatch) seem much less logical than I remembered. Unlike Data, they're more like humans who think they're highly logical, but make irrational decisions all the time. They seem more lawful than logical, following rules to the letter even if that's unfavorable. Maybe my memory of the movies and TOS is not very good, but I also recall them as much less emotional.

        7 votes
        1. [2]
          cfabbro
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          They were definitely portrayed as more robotic in TOS (other than during Pon Farr). But in TNG and later series, while Vulcans strive to be logical they aren't portrayed as perfectly so. And they...

          They were definitely portrayed as more robotic in TOS (other than during Pon Farr). But in TNG and later series, while Vulcans strive to be logical they aren't portrayed as perfectly so. And they actually do feel emotions underneath it all, so occasionally you get a glimmer of that peaking through, it's just that they keep it strictly contained the vast majority of the time. During Pon Farr you see the most extreme examples of what happens if they can't maintain control, but even outside that scenario, before Surak they were basically more emotional and violent than even the Romulans. And not every Vulcan even follows Surak's code either, some instead are completely open with their emotions, e.g. Sybok, Spock's banished half brother.

          6 votes
          1. Amarok
            Link Parent
            I loved the Logic Extremists as villains, too.

            I loved the Logic Extremists as villains, too.

            2 votes
    2. [8]
      mrbig
      Link Parent
      Interestingly, I find Brent Spiner so awesome as Data that I tend to listen carefully to whatever nonsense he says...

      Interestingly, I find Brent Spiner so awesome as Data that I tend to listen carefully to whatever nonsense he says...

      8 votes
      1. [7]
        stephen
        Link Parent
        Is it just me or did Spiner play Data like waaaaaay less robot-y in later seasons. Was this on purpose?

        Is it just me or did Spiner play Data like waaaaaay less robot-y in later seasons. Was this on purpose?

        3 votes
        1. [5]
          tomf
          Link Parent
          Trek-logic would have you believe that he was adapting his response patterns to more closely emulate his human counterparts. :)

          Trek-logic would have you believe that he was adapting his response patterns to more closely emulate his human counterparts. :)

          5 votes
          1. [4]
            stephen
            Link Parent
            Spoken like you used to write data's lines.

            adapting his response patterns to more closely emulate his human counterparts

            Spoken like you used to write data's lines.

            2 votes
            1. [3]
              tomf
              Link Parent
              ha. I'm in the middle of a TNG rewatch and I'm totally in that mindset. Basically, anything out of the ordinary can be chalked up to 'Data is learning!' -- yet he still can't figure out contractions.

              ha. I'm in the middle of a TNG rewatch and I'm totally in that mindset.

              Basically, anything out of the ordinary can be chalked up to 'Data is learning!' -- yet he still can't figure out contractions.

              2 votes
              1. [2]
                zptc
                Link Parent
                Data is learning how to have what humans call a "personality." One element of "personality" is "quirks." Data has chosen the absence of spoken contractions as a "quirk."

                Data is learning how to have what humans call a "personality." One element of "personality" is "quirks." Data has chosen the absence of spoken contractions as a "quirk."

                5 votes
                1. tomf
                  Link Parent
                  ha. I'll accept that. It's also a good defense since his EVIL TWIN uses contractions --- and now that everybody knows, they'll know if he gets onto the ship again.

                  ha. I'll accept that. It's also a good defense since his EVIL TWIN uses contractions --- and now that everybody knows, they'll know if he gets onto the ship again.

                  2 votes
        2. mrbig
          Link Parent
          Yes, because Data was gradually achieving his goal to become more human.

          Yes, because Data was gradually achieving his goal to become more human.

          2 votes
    3. Photon
      Link Parent
      Wow that's actually really interesting, it really drives home how the tech itself is really just not the point. That's a really cool fact to learn.

      Wow that's actually really interesting, it really drives home how the tech itself is really just not the point. That's a really cool fact to learn.

      5 votes
    4. mrbig
      Link Parent
      What a great reference, thank you! I will read the full article. I can see how a process like that could make the writers lazy and the consistency go to shit. We must have some leniency with soft...

      What a great reference, thank you! I will read the full article. I can see how a process like that could make the writers lazy and the consistency go to shit. We must have some leniency with soft sci-fi, but even then coherence is a must... like in any genre, actually. Star Wars, Godfather and Finding Nemo are bound by the same need for internal cohesion.

      4 votes
  2. [2]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. ras
      Link Parent
      One of my favorite things about re-watching the series as an adult (I was on the young side for its original run, but I did enjoy watching it then too) is that I saw the show was way more than...

      One of my favorite things about re-watching the series as an adult (I was on the young side for its original run, but I did enjoy watching it then too) is that I saw the show was way more than sci-fi. I think the best example is The Measure of a Man. It's almost a perfect episode and just rife with philosophy. I get emotional every time I watch it.

      2 votes
  3. [3]
    Whom
    Link
    I've always felt that they do focus on the interesting bits, and the babble is just there for a line or two when they need it. It's more often than not a line like the one you said to move the...

    I've always felt that they do focus on the interesting bits, and the babble is just there for a line or two when they need it. It's more often than not a line like the one you said to move the plot along, then right back to the good stuff.

    Sorry, just can't relate with your experience here.

    6 votes
    1. mrbig
      Link Parent
      I am watching it in binge, and it is possible that this way of watching is making me overly grumpy or sensitive. I don't remember minding it when I was a kid. But then again, I was a kid.

      I am watching it in binge, and it is possible that this way of watching is making me overly grumpy or sensitive. I don't remember minding it when I was a kid. But then again, I was a kid.

      2 votes
    2. mrbig
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I concede that what I called "the interesting bits" is the core of the show. Nevertheless, a bit of logical consistency wouldn't hurt. edit: made the argument concede even more (because it is the...

      I concede that what I called "the interesting bits" is the core of the show. Nevertheless, a bit of logical consistency wouldn't hurt.

      edit: made the argument concede even more (because it is the truth)

      2 votes
  4. [34]
    Kraetos
    (edited )
    Link
    It's interesting you single out TNG as the technobabble offender because it's by far the most consistent when it comes to technobabble. Of all the shows it was the only one with a dedicated...

    It's interesting you single out TNG as the technobabble offender because it's by far the most consistent when it comes to technobabble. Of all the shows it was the only one with a dedicated technobabble consultant. But to your point, the technobabble consultant concedes that even he couldn't save every episode.

    But man, if you think TNG is bad, do yourself a favor and simply avoid Voyager and Enterprise. They cranked it up to 11 on the bad science front. TOS and DS9 largely avoid this problem simply by having less technobabble, but it's still there. As for Discovery, it's somewhere between TNG and VOY.

    If it's all meaningless, at least keep it to a minimum.

    There is a method to the madness if you steep yourself in it. Any time they want to handwave the speed of light away, it's either "subspace" or "tachyons." Any time they want to handwave gravity away, it's "gravitons." Dire problem in need of a quick fix? Well then we'll be "reversing the polarity." (Works best after plan A failed.) Need to futz with time? "Chronitons." There is some degree of internal consistency to technobabble, there's just very little consistency with actual science.

    Focus on the interesting bits: the politics, the culture, the philosophical exploration, the juicy paradoxes.

    This is a big problem that Berman-style Trek started to trip over towards the end of its run, and why cancelling Enterprise was arguably a much-needed mercy kill. Of course, Discovery is not much better than Enterprise on this front, so who knows.

    6 votes
    1. [31]
      mrbig
      Link Parent
      I watched a few episodes of this show. It does not feel like Star Trek to me. It's some sci-fi with a Star Trek skin. The Klingons look just like those aliens from Thor: Dark World, and also just...

      Discovery

      I watched a few episodes of this show. It does not feel like Star Trek to me. It's some sci-fi with a Star Trek skin. The Klingons look just like those aliens from Thor: Dark World, and also just as uninteresting. I don't get the need to reinvent the wheel there, but whatever.

      I'd love to be proven wrong, but I didn't feel compelled to keep watching.

      3 votes
      1. Amarok
        Link Parent
        You weren't wrong. Everyone loves to harp on how bad the 'woke' politics were. That honestly doesn't bother me as much as the wooden acting and mary sue writing, or the cliche plot and villains,...

        You weren't wrong. Everyone loves to harp on how bad the 'woke' politics were. That honestly doesn't bother me as much as the wooden acting and mary sue writing, or the cliche plot and villains, or that significant parts of the show were straight up stolen (just like DS9). I'm getting a bit sick of section 31 being shoved into all of the trek, too - that organization has no business existing in the star trek universe, it's an affront to the principles of the federation on every level. It's just a hot mess of a series. The look was gorgeous, though I'd lose some of the lens flare.

        It'd have been a much better scifi show if it weren't a trek, really.

        5 votes
      2. [25]
        Kraetos
        Link Parent
        Yeah, everyone said that about TNG and DS9 when they were new too. I'm not nuts about Discovery, but the "it's not real Star Trek" complaint has never really resonated with me. The definition of...

        Yeah, everyone said that about TNG and DS9 when they were new too.

        I'm not nuts about Discovery, but the "it's not real Star Trek" complaint has never really resonated with me. The definition of Star Trek grows and adapts when new Star Trek is introduced. Defining Star Trek as "the Star Trek that already exists" seems close-minded to me.

        2 votes
        1. [11]
          Amarok
          Link Parent
          I think that comes from trying to shoe-horn Discovery into the old trek timeline. That ship is ridiculously out of place alongside the tech level present in TOS and yet it's right there alongside...

          I think that comes from trying to shoe-horn Discovery into the old trek timeline. That ship is ridiculously out of place alongside the tech level present in TOS and yet it's right there alongside the original Enterprise. I appreciate the visit to Talos IV and I'd like to see future trek revisit places from past trek, but the way it was all handled just took a giant, steaming shit on the franchise's canon... and for what?

          Trek should only move forward, not backward. I have an immediate negative reaction to any trek show set before the end of Voyager. It seems like the writers balk at looking forward to a Federation that has functional time travel capability so ubiquitous it is built into the shuttles.

          3 votes
          1. [10]
            Kraetos
            Link Parent
            How so? The ship is large but most of that appears to be uninhabitable space. Her traditional maximum warp appears to be warp 7, where the Enterprise maxes out at warp 8. She's got phasers, photon...

            That ship is ridiculously out of place alongside the tech level present in TOS

            How so? The ship is large but most of that appears to be uninhabitable space. Her traditional maximum warp appears to be warp 7, where the Enterprise maxes out at warp 8. She's got phasers, photon torpedoes, and shields, which seems to be in-line with weaponry of the era. Other than the spore drive, which I agree got a rather hamfisted explanation for its absence in later Star Trek shows, what about Discovery is anachronistic for the TOS era?

            Trek should only move forward, not backward.

            I strongly disagree, there are huge swaths of uncovered time in the Trek universe I'd like to know more about, particularly the early 24th century.

            2 votes
            1. [9]
              Amarok
              Link Parent
              The main issues are the spore drive, the time travel suit, and the existence of Section 31 - particularly, how Section 31 seems to have full run of the federation, in the open, even before the...

              The main issues are the spore drive, the time travel suit, and the existence of Section 31 - particularly, how Section 31 seems to have full run of the federation, in the open, even before the 'control' AI goes all terminator and steals what, 40 starships? So much for secrecy. S31 was inserted into DS9 to give it a subterfuge angle, and the org there was so secretive it existed only in the minds of its agents - there was no base, no papers, no files, no proof, no computers, nothing. It pissed off plenty of trekkies then, too. The black badges violate everything trek stands for.

              I'd visit those interesting places from a series set in the present, rather than the past. The federation still hasn't gone through the legwork of developing transwarp and time travel as a core part of their ship capabilities, even though they've shown that will happen on several occasions in several different series. I'm sure that tech comes with a rather rocky prototyping period, plenty of room for time adventures in a show set post-Voyager as they work it all out.

              At this point Trek seems dead, so I doubt we'll ever get either. Discovery while not technically cancelled has no funding, even Netflix backed off of putting cash in for both that and Picard. The merchandisers walked away from the table - the sales suck, no one wants to buy collectibles. CBS's all access network is dying just like everyone predicted. The film franchise reboot also fell into limbo, losing most of the cast. CBS's only shot at salvaging this mess is to make Picard into a kick ass show and fund those shows themselves without outside help.

              If they fail at that, Trek gets to spend another decade on the shelf. So many wasted opportunities. I think that pisses me off more than anything - this is a dynamite franchise with limitless storytelling potential, and every modern take goes straight to being scifi-western garbage or some other variant on cheap thrills and action films. The people with the purse strings here continue to reach never before seen levels of stupidity, it's like they don't understand their own properties or how to use them effectively.

              3 votes
              1. [8]
                Kraetos
                Link Parent
                Spore drive was classified, time travel has occurred both before and after this point in time in the Trek universe, and Section 31 is essentially destroyed at end of season 2, which explains why...

                The main issues are the spore drive, the time travel suit, and the existence of Section 31

                Spore drive was classified, time travel has occurred both before and after this point in time in the Trek universe, and Section 31 is essentially destroyed at end of season 2, which explains why they're "underground" a century later.

                Maybe you don't buy these explanations, but they are still the provided explanations.

                Discovery while not technically cancelled has no funding, even Netflix backed off of putting cash in for both that and Picard. The merchandisers walked away from the table - the sales suck, no one wants to buy collectibles. CBS's all access network is dying just like everyone predicted.

                Uhhhhhh these are all from conspiracy theory videos on YouTube, just telling people who don't like Discovery what they want to hear.

                4 votes
                1. Algernon_Asimov
                  Link Parent
                  Exactly. The second season of DSC had a very noticeable sub-thread of "let's cover up and explain away and wipe out the first season". I don't like that they had to do it (they should never have...

                  Spore drive was classified, time travel has occurred both before and after this point in time in the Trek universe, and Section 31 is essentially destroyed at end of season 2, which explains why they're "underground" a century later.

                  Exactly. The second season of DSC had a very noticeable sub-thread of "let's cover up and explain away and wipe out the first season". I don't like that they had to do it (they should never have written crap they later needed to explain away), but they did it.

                  1 vote
                2. [6]
                  Amarok
                  Link Parent
                  Rumors, not conspiracy theories, and I'll take my screen analysis youtube channels any day over what passes for film journalism on the larger web, I'm done with that trash forever. I'm sick of...

                  Rumors, not conspiracy theories, and I'll take my screen analysis youtube channels any day over what passes for film journalism on the larger web, I'm done with that trash forever. I'm sick of reading clickbait screen news that does nothing except attack fans and praise garbage. Considering this rumor is being widely reported while CBS has nothing to say about it, I tend to think it may have some merit. We'll see when CBS gets around to announcing the details for S3 of Discovery and Picard. Perhaps they'll find a way to merge them, I wouldn't put it past them to try.

                  1. [5]
                    babypuncher
                    Link Parent
                    Crazy theories like this have been running wild on YouTube since season 1 and CBS has never commented on them because they have no obligation to. All of these rumors have so far remained entirely...

                    Crazy theories like this have been running wild on YouTube since season 1 and CBS has never commented on them because they have no obligation to.

                    All of these rumors have so far remained entirely unsubstantiated. CBS behavior in general is not consistent with these stories. They wouldn't be investing heavily into additional series and spinoffs if it was a flop. The only thing propping these doom and gloom conspiracies is a hefty dose of confirmation bias.

                    2 votes
                    1. [4]
                      Amarok
                      Link Parent
                      Netflix paid for all of Discovery's first two seasons, there were no rumors that they've 'pulled out' until very recently, coming with the drop in ratings and negativity around the show. If there...

                      Netflix paid for all of Discovery's first two seasons, there were no rumors that they've 'pulled out' until very recently, coming with the drop in ratings and negativity around the show. If there were rumors that they pulled out after S1 I never saw them, do you have a source for that? Or was it just in crazy randos videos?

                      1. [3]
                        babypuncher
                        Link Parent
                        I haven't seen any evidence of this. Reception of S2 on /r/startrek seems to be that is was a big improvement over S1, which seems to contradict the narrative being spun by these "rumors".

                        coming with the drop in ratings and negativity around the show.

                        I haven't seen any evidence of this. Reception of S2 on /r/startrek seems to be that is was a big improvement over S1, which seems to contradict the narrative being spun by these "rumors".

                        1 vote
                        1. [2]
                          Amarok
                          Link Parent
                          The user ratings on most review sites tell quite a different story, but there are so few of them submitted that it's hardly a representative sampling. It's almost as if no one is watching it,...

                          The user ratings on most review sites tell quite a different story, but there are so few of them submitted that it's hardly a representative sampling. It's almost as if no one is watching it, which might be why Netflix dropped Trek completely. Clearly they aren't impressed, and after they spent years attempting to get a Trek show, having them walk away from funding Discovery's new season and pass on Picard doesn't give me a lot of confidence in the future of Trek.

                          1. babypuncher
                            Link Parent
                            Did they? Because I'm still seeing tons of Star Trek on my Netflix. How do we know that they passed on Picard? It's just as possible that Amazon simply offered more money for it. The only evidence...

                            Netflix dropped Trek completely.

                            Did they? Because I'm still seeing tons of Star Trek on my Netflix.

                            How do we know that they passed on Picard? It's just as possible that Amazon simply offered more money for it.

                            The only evidence we have are these two facts:

                            1: CBS has ordered a third season of Discovery.

                            2: After seeing the performance of Discovery, CBS has gone on to order a spinoff and at least three other Trek shows.

                            These aren't the behaviors of a studio with a dud on its hands.

                            1 vote
        2. [13]
          mrbig
          Link Parent
          Taking your stance to the last consequences, one could argue that anything that is called "Star Trek" is, by definition, Star Trek. That line of reasoning doesn't make sense unless we abandon all...

          Taking your stance to the last consequences, one could argue that anything that is called "Star Trek" is, by definition, Star Trek. That line of reasoning doesn't make sense unless we abandon all hope for cohesion.

          Doing so might render the emotional connection the fans have with the franchise meaningless. Despite all crimes against the canon, we must make an effort for coherence, and that's why we sometimes make twisted connections: we need to sustain this fragile object that we love.

          Furthermore, it is perfectly possible to identify at least one core characteristic that is shared by the most iconic versions of Star Trek: a focus on the exploration of unknown places, knowledges, beings, and political contexts, always discussing the philosophical implications of those encounters.

          This is present, in some form or another, in TOS, TNG, Voyager and DS9. But not on Star Trek Discovery.

          1. [11]
            Kraetos
            Link Parent
            Sure it is. The mycelial plane certainly qualifies as an unknown place containing new knowledge and new life, and each season of Discovery has a distinct political context: the Klingon war in...

            This is present, in some form or another, in TOS, TNG and DS9. But not on Star Trek Discovery.

            Sure it is. The mycelial plane certainly qualifies as an unknown place containing new knowledge and new life, and each season of Discovery has a distinct political context: the Klingon war in season 1, and Section 31 gone rogue in season 2.

            1. [10]
              mrbig
              Link Parent
              I did not get that impression from the episodes I watched. They were heavy in action and melodrama. While the previous series had mainly standalone episodes, I think Discovery is more serialized...

              I did not get that impression from the episodes I watched. They were heavy in action and melodrama.

              While the previous series had mainly standalone episodes, I think Discovery is more serialized in nature, therefore reducing the amount of novelty available.

              For example, you talk about two different political contexts, while a single TNG season probably has dozens of those. I never watched Star Trek for long-form drama, but merely for a weekly, interesting surprise.

              By having longer narratives and a focus on action and melodrama, I suppose Discovery has less space for that kind of thing (in other words, and linking to my previous comment: less philosophical exploration). Am I right to assume that?

              1 vote
              1. [9]
                Kraetos
                Link Parent
                Is any prestige television still using the episodic format? Serialized is the baseline for dramas these days. An episodic drama debuting in 2017 would have seemed painfully dated right out of the...

                Is any prestige television still using the episodic format? Serialized is the baseline for dramas these days. An episodic drama debuting in 2017 would have seemed painfully dated right out of the gate.

                1. [7]
                  mrbig
                  Link Parent
                  Black Mirror comes to mind.

                  Black Mirror comes to mind.

                  1. [6]
                    Kraetos
                    Link Parent
                    Yeah but Black Mirror episodes are totally isolated. Each episode is a standalone story, not even the characters persist.

                    Yeah but Black Mirror episodes are totally isolated. Each episode is a standalone story, not even the characters persist.

                    1. [5]
                      mrbig
                      Link Parent
                      TNG was mostly standalone but also had lots of continuity - in its own way at least. There are many such hybrids or purely episodic shows in recent television. A very successful one, and a...

                      TNG was mostly standalone but also had lots of continuity - in its own way at least.

                      There are many such hybrids or purely episodic shows in recent television. A very successful one, and a favorite of mine, was The Good Wife. I'm sure there's A BUNCH of episodic crime dramas out there I don't watch such as Criminal Minds, SVU, NCIS, all the CSI overshoots and the like. There is also Lucifer, Suits, The Good Fight, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, the X-Files new season...

                      I don't know, dude, it seems to me that episodic fiction is thriving.

                      1. [4]
                        Kraetos
                        Link Parent
                        Key qualifiers in my comment you've missed: "prestige" and "drama." These shows are all either comedies or run-of-the-mill primetime police procedurals on their Nth spinoff and umpteenth season....

                        Key qualifiers in my comment you've missed: "prestige" and "drama." These shows are all either comedies or run-of-the-mill primetime police procedurals on their Nth spinoff and umpteenth season.

                        CBS is going after the Netflix/HBO-style serialized drama with Discovery. They're going after the Stranger Things and Game of Thrones crowd.

                        I'm with you on the notion that it's not Star Trek if it doesn't have some form of exploration in it, and Discovery does. But constraining Star Trek the episodic format seems like a bizarre way to artificially stunt the growth the franchise, particularly when you consider that Deep Space Nine helped pioneer what we now think of as the "prestige serial drama," the very format that Discovery has embraced.

                        1. [3]
                          mrbig
                          Link Parent
                          I'm very sorry, the conversation was interesting and I was in a rush. I guess you're right, but I still find your statement regarding the current state of episodic fiction hard to believe. That's...

                          I'm very sorry, the conversation was interesting and I was in a rush. I guess you're right, but I still find your statement regarding the current state of episodic fiction hard to believe. That's just an intuition, though. I'll get back to that.

                          1. [2]
                            Kraetos
                            Link Parent
                            I mean there's certainly a case to be made that this entire concept of "prestige television" is pompous bullshit, but in as much as it exists, there's a clear template and Discovery is following it.

                            I mean there's certainly a case to be made that this entire concept of "prestige television" is pompous bullshit, but in as much as it exists, there's a clear template and Discovery is following it.

                            1 vote
                2. Amarok
                  Link Parent
                  Shouldn't that really come down to the kind of story you want to tell? Some work as one-offs, some work as multi-part episodes, and any show is made better by having the sense of an unfolding...

                  Shouldn't that really come down to the kind of story you want to tell? Some work as one-offs, some work as multi-part episodes, and any show is made better by having the sense of an unfolding universe that exists (and occasionally intrudes) regardless of what the characters or story of the moment are doing. Black Mirror has that, for example, despite the standalone nature of the eps.

                  TNG had multi-part eps that were wonderful, usually as series finale moments. Even B5, the grandfather of serial storytelling, had some one-off episodes to explore parts of the universe such as capital punishment or crazy aliens or what life is like for not-heroes living in this larger than life world. Doctor Who and Gunsmoke also did large, multi-episode arcs. I think old Who still has the record, I remember one that was over ten eps long, most were 3-6 eps.

                  I think trying to say one is better than the other misses the point entirely. The format exists to serve the story, not the other way around. We're in a time now where episode length need not be tied to one hour blocks or commercial breaks or hard length limits, either. That should be freeing our stories up to shine, not holding them back.

          2. Amarok
            Link Parent
            That's it, right there. It's the same problem with Star Wars and Marvel lately. I don't know if you've noticed, but comics in the classic sense are a dead industry right now. Fans are selling...

            Doing so might render the emotional connection the fans have with the franchise meaningless.

            That's it, right there. It's the same problem with Star Wars and Marvel lately. I don't know if you've noticed, but comics in the classic sense are a dead industry right now. Fans are selling their once-treasured schwag on ebay for pennies and nobody is buying it. When you sell out your existing fan base, that's what happens. I usually see this justified as trying to win a new fan base over - turns out that while the 'new' fans are loud, they do nothing but talk, and talk is cheap.

      3. [4]
        babypuncher
        Link Parent
        You might like Season 2 a lot more. The main story arc ends up being about internal Federation politics (albeit tangentially), the overall tone is much brighter and more optimistic, and they gave...

        You might like Season 2 a lot more. The main story arc ends up being about internal Federation politics (albeit tangentially), the overall tone is much brighter and more optimistic, and they gave the Klingons their hair back. Captain Pike is also easily one of the top three captains after this season.

        1. [2]
          Kraetos
          Link Parent
          On the one hand it's kinda lame that Pike is just the cliché epitome of Starfleet captain. An uncontroversial square-jawed good guy, the best of Kirk and Picard rolled into one. Lorca challenged...

          Captain Pike is also easily one of the top three captains after this season.

          On the one hand it's kinda lame that Pike is just the cliché epitome of Starfleet captain. An uncontroversial square-jawed good guy, the best of Kirk and Picard rolled into one. Lorca challenged the viewer, whereas Pike was just what we've all seen before, turned up to 11.

          But on the other hand, Anson Mount just freakin' nailed it, and there's certainly precedent for Pike being Starfleet's greatest captain of all time.

          1 vote
          1. Amarok
            Link Parent
            His retrieval of the time crystal was a great moment. I just wish it was in service to a better story.

            His retrieval of the time crystal was a great moment. I just wish it was in service to a better story.

            1 vote
        2. Amarok
          Link Parent
          I'll second the love for Pike, Anson Mount did a bang up job there.

          I'll second the love for Pike, Anson Mount did a bang up job there.

    2. mrbig
      Link Parent
      Oh, that's only because that's the one I know the most, and also rewatching right now.

      It's interesting you single out TNG as the technobabble offender because it's by far the most consistent when it comes to technobabble

      Oh, that's only because that's the one I know the most, and also rewatching right now.

    3. NaraVara
      Link Parent
      You would think Starfleet trained engineers would know how to put a battery in the right way.

      Dire problem in need of a quick fix? Well then we'll be "reversing the polarity."

      You would think Starfleet trained engineers would know how to put a battery in the right way.

  5. [2]
    Wes
    Link
    It gets better throughout the show. Often what starts as simple mumbo jumbo (eg. "continue fluctuating the shield resonance!") later becomes accepted canon and even worked into plot ("As you know...

    It gets better throughout the show. Often what starts as simple mumbo jumbo (eg. "continue fluctuating the shield resonance!") later becomes accepted canon and even worked into plot ("As you know shields have a resonance. If we time it right we can match the resonance and beam inside!").

    Technologies that are frequently featured often get more in-depth explanations, such as the requirement of ship nacelles for warp functionality. The wiki details many of these. Even the Heisenberg Compensator, a part that has only been mentioned once across all the series, still has a specific use.

    That's not to say that the canon around tech is perfect. They retcon it all the time. eg. Warp 10 used to be considered "infinite speed", but that didn't stop them from going Warp 13 in another series.

    Considering all the writers and all the series though, I'd say they do a pretty good job of keeping it together.

    5 votes
    1. babypuncher
      Link Parent
      Between TOS and TNG, warp factors switched to an exponential scale, which I think is fine. However the relative speed of warp factors has never been very consistent.

      That's not to say that the canon around tech is perfect. They retcon it all the time. eg. Warp 10 used to be considered "infinite speed", but that didn't stop them from going Warp 13 in another series.

      Between TOS and TNG, warp factors switched to an exponential scale, which I think is fine. However the relative speed of warp factors has never been very consistent.

      1 vote
  6. [2]
    pgl
    Link
    I think the technical term for this is Techno Babble, as used by several people in this thread already.

    I think the technical term for this is Techno Babble, as used by several people in this thread already.

    2 votes
    1. mrbig
      Link Parent
      Oh yes, of course. Thanks.

      Oh yes, of course. Thanks.

      1 vote
  7. Octofox
    Link
    I find it to be not too bad. The choice to use no real world units or technology was a smart one because you can think of it as all being correct but using technology that doesn't exist yet which...

    I find it to be not too bad. The choice to use no real world units or technology was a smart one because you can think of it as all being correct but using technology that doesn't exist yet which is much better than tv shows that "Hack the IP address using visual basic to give them a virus" The show also has a very small focus on the specifics of the technology and gives the spotlight to the moral dilemmas the crew encounter.

    2 votes
  8. [4]
    Amarok
    Link
    It's always bothered me how fast they are to fall back on the tech as a handwavy solution. I'd mind it a lot less if it were internally consistent within its own rules, but it is not and never has...

    It's always bothered me how fast they are to fall back on the tech as a handwavy solution. I'd mind it a lot less if it were internally consistent within its own rules, but it is not and never has been consistent. Worse, it has no real rules or basis in any kind of real science, most of the 'tech' explanations in the show are complete nonsense. The shows don't even follow the books that were published to take a deeper look at trek physics, which is a damn shame because those books do lay out a good foundation for storytelling - the writers just don't read them. This is an omnipresent problem in scifi shows, not unique to star trek, though they are perhaps one of the worst offenders (especially TNG/VOY/STD). It's one of those things where you just have to roll your eyes and accept it as part of the genre.

    One of my favorite aspects of B5 is that show does have its own tech rules, and it follows them rigorously. It also doesn't use technobabble or take a deep dive into those rules to explain them. It uses the tech to set limits on the story, rather than provide miraculous save the day moments. The closest they get to making tech mistakes similar to trek is being a bit loose on how long it takes for hyperspace travel. Some hyperspace routes are often talked about taking weeks, some destinations mentioned as 'too far to ship ____ before it spoils' - yet warships can apparently make that trip in a day or less if they are in a hurry. It's similar to the teleportation issues with some characters in game of thrones making week/month long journeys in between scenes. Seems like absolutely everyone manages to be inconsistent about travel times no matter how well they do everything else. There's also telepathy and time travel (aided by the dreaded tachyon) but even those are used carefully, with limits.

    2 votes
    1. [3]
      mrbig
      Link Parent
      I never watched Babylon 5, but from your description the latest Battlestar Galactica might be similar. I also love how the ship in this show kinda feel like a real ship, the ones you take to the sea.

      I never watched Babylon 5, but from your description the latest Battlestar Galactica might be similar. I also love how the ship in this show kinda feel like a real ship, the ones you take to the sea.

      1. [2]
        Amarok
        Link Parent
        I thought BSG (the newest one, there are 3 shows) did a pretty good job of not focusing on the tech or abusing it. I loved how the ship just continued to get more and more and more beat up, giving...

        I thought BSG (the newest one, there are 3 shows) did a pretty good job of not focusing on the tech or abusing it. I loved how the ship just continued to get more and more and more beat up, giving a sense of impending doom every time they put it through a major workout.

        2 votes
        1. mrbig
          Link Parent
          Yeah... and it’s beat up from the start. There’s a personality to it. It’s awesome.

          Yeah... and it’s beat up from the start. There’s a personality to it. It’s awesome.

  9. [2]
    moocow1452
    Link
    It's kind of like Sanderson's Laws of Magic in that if Treknobabble was a magic, it's not consistent enough to be a reliable solution.

    It's kind of like Sanderson's Laws of Magic in that if Treknobabble was a magic, it's not consistent enough to be a reliable solution.

    2 votes
    1. mrbig
      Link Parent
      From a quick glance, those seem reasonable. The rules look like a specialized version of common recommendations from writing/screenwriting manuals, which are themselves heavily inspired by...

      From a quick glance, those seem reasonable. The rules look like a specialized version of common recommendations from writing/screenwriting manuals, which are themselves heavily inspired by Aristotle's Poetics and its criticism of Deus ex machina.

      1 vote
  10. [5]
    tomf
    Link
    One thing I liked about Half a Life (S04E22) with David Ogden Stiers (where he must return to his planet to kill himself because he is sixty years old) is that their planet saving attempt...

    One thing I liked about Half a Life (S04E22) with David Ogden Stiers (where he must return to his planet to kill himself because he is sixty years old) is that their planet saving attempt ultimately failed, and even though he had a theory that may be able to save the planet down the road, he opted to go back to his planet to adhere to the culture and die.

    In a lot of Trek episodes they would have found a way to magically photon blast a neighboring star or something, ultimately saving the homeworld -- but instead we get a somewhat realistic fail that could lead to a serious disaster.

    I wish Trek had more of this -- where everything just goes south and there is no easy fix.

    2 votes
    1. [4]
      mrbig
      Link Parent
      I haven't rewatched this one yet. Do you remember "Suddenly Human" (S04E04), the one about the human kid raised as a Talassian? Very down to earth ending. I like episodes like that.

      Half a Life

      I haven't rewatched this one yet. Do you remember "Suddenly Human" (S04E04), the one about the human kid raised as a Talassian? Very down to earth ending. I like episodes like that.

      1 vote
      1. [3]
        tomf
        Link Parent
        yeah, that's a great episode. Half a Life isn't a particularly great episode, but the overall structure of the story is very... normal. A well-known scientist from a somewhat isolated planet needs...

        yeah, that's a great episode.

        Half a Life isn't a particularly great episode, but the overall structure of the story is very... normal. A well-known scientist from a somewhat isolated planet needs the Federation's help to put his theory into action, in hopes of saving his planet. It comes close to succeeding, but ultimately fails... but provides further information that may assist his work -- but there's a setback; he's only days away from the time where the people of his planet have decided that all people must die. Will Picard intervene, somewhat breaking the Prime Directive? dun dun dun...

        But seriously, its this sort of rhythm that works best for TNG. Far better than 'we're fucked, Geordi -- can you invent a new technology in the next twenty minutes to save us?' 'sure thing, boss'

        1 vote
        1. [2]
          mrbig
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          The Prime Directive, let’s be honest, has lots of room for interpretation...

          The Prime Directive, let’s be honest, has lots of room for interpretation...

          1 vote
          1. tomf
            Link Parent
            very much so. It's basically, 'don't force your futuristic / progressive values onto younger / foreign cultures' -- it also prevents the Federation from handing out replicators as housewarming...

            very much so. It's basically, 'don't force your futuristic / progressive values onto younger / foreign cultures' -- it also prevents the Federation from handing out replicators as housewarming gifts on first contact. That source of unlimited HOT Earl Grey tea would cause entire cultures to crumble.

  11. [3]
    stephen
    Link
    My thing with sci-fi that I think lots get wrong is that it should be about making a commentary on the present, not grandiose predictions about future technology. For instance, I don't care about...

    My thing with sci-fi that I think lots get wrong is that it should be about making a commentary on the present, not grandiose predictions about future technology. For instance, I don't care about the technology of food replicators as I do the statement they make on how our world is kind of "work or starve." Data isn't interesting because he begs technical about positronic brains (am also rewatching next gen xD) and AI. Data is interesting because he makes us consider our attitudes towards animals/non-human sentience and the essence of our own humanity.

    Related: This is why the current cyberpunk revival isn't as good a the original.

    1 vote
    1. [2]
      mrbig
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Oh, I don't think anyone can blame Star Trek, nor TNG in particular, for failing to do that...

      My thing with sci-fi that I think lots get wrong is that it should be about making a commentary on the present, not grandiose predictions about future technology

      Oh, I don't think anyone can blame Star Trek, nor TNG in particular, for failing to do that...

      1. stephen
        Link Parent
        To the contrary I think TNG is one of the best shows for this of its era (though I'm no expert). For instance there is an episode (the Host) featuring climate change AND gender transition.

        for failing to do that...

        To the contrary I think TNG is one of the best shows for this of its era (though I'm no expert). For instance there is an episode (the Host) featuring climate change AND gender transition.

        1 vote