raze2012's recent activity
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Comment on AI isn’t replacing jobs. AI spending is. in ~comp
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Comment on Indie Game Awards rescinds Clair Obscur's GOTY wins over use of generative AI [for now-removed background assets] in ~games
raze2012 Link ParentOkay. We can have a discussion about that too. But the point here is that the rule exists and that's what they are using as criteria. Calling it unfair when it's being put in effect is working a...the rule is unreasonable and unenforceable
Okay. We can have a discussion about that too. But the point here is that the rule exists and that's what they are using as criteria. Calling it unfair when it's being put in effect is working a tad too late IMO. It's an awards show, not national policy, so I'm going to be more lax in what some private organization decides to do in terms of their rulings.
Whether the artificial neural network is trained on text to generate text or trained on images to generate images is not a relevant distinction.
It is for this ruling. I'm simply giving you more context on why they made it this way.
If the entire industry is built on top of the forbidden technique, time to pack it up or loosen the restrictions.
Or we be more subtle and define proper lines. Like we did here.
I'm sorry you do not like the lines here, but your arguments break down to "I don't like this", and mine are simply "the rules are there". I don't have much to say to sway your opinion, I just want to illuminate that this isn't some grand revelation that came out of nowhere.
We can change it for next year if people feel strongly. But I feel more like this will blow over in a week and the rule will stay until the next AI controversy. So I don't know what to say to that. Again, this is just some organization giving recognition to games, so I'm in the camp of "they can rule how they want, as long as it is consistent".
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Comment on AI isn’t replacing jobs. AI spending is. in ~comp
raze2012 Link ParentYes, that's the tricky part. They only need to say their hiring numbers overall. Not the breakdown by region. All these come more off of inferences, between the job numbers in the US being down...Yes, that's the tricky part. They only need to say their hiring numbers overall. Not the breakdown by region.
All these come more off of inferences, between the job numbers in the US being down for all sectors except hospitality and healthcare (from what we still have of the Labor Statistics), but job numbers from earnings reports in tech seemingly still going up. It's not hard proof, but it's definitely smoke that I'd hope someone else could investigate more deeply into.
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Comment on AI isn’t replacing jobs. AI spending is. in ~comp
raze2012 Link ParentOutsourcing isn't the same as contracting. They aren't mutually exclusive, but I was talking about people hired into Google proper (but also not in the US). Yes, and my argument is that Google is...Outsourcing isn't the same as contracting. They aren't mutually exclusive, but I was talking about people hired into Google proper (but also not in the US).
But employees aren't all in the US either; Google has offices all over the world.
Yes, and my argument is that Google is reducing headcount in the US and expanding in places with lower costs of living. That's how you can say there's a job crisis in the US while still seeing Google's hiring numbers actually rising overtime.
We've been through this already with manufacturing in the 90's.
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Comment on Indie Game Awards rescinds Clair Obscur's GOTY wins over use of generative AI [for now-removed background assets] in ~games
raze2012 Link Parentwell of course not. That's why people making pitches make vertical slices. That just means you need to replace placeholders even earlier than usual. Epic hired artists to make those assets, and...Purple blobs do not sell an idea.
well of course not. That's why people making pitches make vertical slices. That just means you need to replace placeholders even earlier than usual.
If they truly only used AI for placeholder purposes I think we should consider engine assets to be in the same vein.
Epic hired artists to make those assets, and they are actually of decent quality. You can break down a tree and see good modeling principles you can learn from.
I say Engine assets are fine, they are there specifically to help either with prototyping or common boilerplate texture/props. The issue is that these assets are not meant to be cohesive; they are there to provide examples for a variety of environments and genres of games. throwing them all together haphazardly does give the same low quality feel, but not because the assets are low quality. The art direction is.
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Comment on Indie Game Awards rescinds Clair Obscur's GOTY wins over use of generative AI [for now-removed background assets] in ~games
raze2012 Link ParentWell it's based on disclosure and includes development, and CO33 got caught. People are free to dig through the other nominees as well (and odds are with the internet, that they have). That point...I'm sure at least some of the other winners and nominees also used AI in some part of the development process, even if none of it made it into the released product.
Well it's based on disclosure and includes development, and CO33 got caught. People are free to dig through the other nominees as well (and odds are with the internet, that they have).
This company actually admitted their mistake, stated clearly that it wasn't intended to be present in the released product, and corrected it almost immediately
That point doesn't matter. https://www.indiegameawards.gg/faq
Games developed using generative AI are strictly ineligible for nomination.
Not released, developed. It was clear at the time they submitted that they were using it. So they lied (or if you are really cynical, they managed to get caught lying). This is less about AI stances and more about sportsmanship and integrity. So it makes sense to punish someone caught to be defying both.
Not to mention how ubiquitous gen AI is becoming in programming
In the gaming space, we tend to use "generative AI" to refer to assets seen in game, not code. if "code generation" is a form of AI then no game since the 90's counts as "not using AI". This is especially because most games these days are made on top of engines, and developers cannot control what code Epic/Unity/etc. chooses to make under the hood. But devs do choose what artistic assets to include in their game.
How is fairly innocent intended-for-internal-alpha-only use in any way a detriment to artists?
glad you asked, I read this piece a few days ago that gave me a different light on concept art: https://thisweekinvideogames.com/feature/concept-artists-in-games-say-generative-ai-references-only-make-their-jobs-harder/
I never considered how having generated concept art could mean clients push back harder against other potential designs for their world. I was always thinking that it could help provide something easier to communicate with than "well I want to have this cool looking gruff dude in dirty gold armor with a beard". But this perspective makes sense.
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Comment on Indie Game Awards rescinds Clair Obscur's GOTY wins over use of generative AI [for now-removed background assets] in ~games
raze2012 Link ParentSeveral issues here: We kinda did back in the day, It's cool but when most your game is proc gen'd it does start to blend in as a variety of blandness. proc gen will always lack something compared...I'm surprised people haven't jumped on "procedural generation" yet
Several issues here:
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We kinda did back in the day, It's cool but when most your game is proc gen'd it does start to blend in as a variety of blandness. proc gen will always lack something compared to a hand crafted level.
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It takes a lot of time to tweak a proc gen so it doesn't create impossible levels or weird hitches or bad interactions. And you need to tweak it for each game. It's not some oracle that creates infinite content. It will in fact take more time to develop that way unless you are a truly skilled engineer: https://xkcd.com/1319/.
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proc gen is only using existing assets, not ones of dubious copyright origins. Its infringement depends on the input. And humans still needed to make that input. Ai meanwhile has scraped the internet and has several challenges in court ongoing.
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Comment on Indie Game Awards rescinds Clair Obscur's GOTY wins over use of generative AI [for now-removed background assets] in ~games
raze2012 Link Parentwell the game is very trippy, but cohesive in its theme and mood. That's great. Clearly the author didn't just generate randomg text by itself and took time to adjust it for the game feel needed....well the game is very trippy, but cohesive in its theme and mood. That's great. Clearly the author didn't just generate randomg text by itself and took time to adjust it for the game feel needed. If most AI generation took that care, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
but right now, we're trying to defend one A-student who was going to succeed with or without AI tools and arguing if they got more productive. Meanwhile the rest of the class is turning in slop and is in danger of failing. It's one good apple in a barrel of rot.
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Comment on Indie Game Awards rescinds Clair Obscur's GOTY wins over use of generative AI [for now-removed background assets] in ~games
raze2012 Link ParentI get the sentiment if you're a billion dollar corporation trying to appeal with everyone. Then sure, COD BLOPS 7 is in competition with Tiktok and Roblox. That's a futile perspective as an indie,...All games are in competition with each other. An hour playing Megabonk is an hour not playing Battlefield.
I get the sentiment if you're a billion dollar corporation trying to appeal with everyone. Then sure, COD BLOPS 7 is in competition with Tiktok and Roblox.
That's a futile perspective as an indie, though. Your goal is not to appeal to the masses and make billions. You start by trying to carve out a few thousand sales and then see where to go from there. That step is already very hard without worrying about "but what about people playing Fortnite?"
Purposefully not participating in the system just makes you lose. Ethics don't exist in a vacuum.
That's fine. I've always been resistant to trend setters, so I suppose I've been a "loser" all my life.
But life doesn't set my definition of success, I do. It's influenced by life, but at the end of the day if I don't want to drink, I simply won't drink. Likewise here. I'll wait for the dust to settle before touching AI, unless my future job otherwise forces me to.
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Comment on Indie Game Awards rescinds Clair Obscur's GOTY wins over use of generative AI [for now-removed background assets] in ~games
raze2012 Link ParentIf we hit that reality, sure. I see the work here, though. And we're far, far far away from AAA adoption of such techniques. What they generate for anything more than static textures is unusable...Your expectation that AI will improve enough that it can be used to generate distinctive art for a videogame yet people will still choose to pay artists if they can doesn't seem consistent with the realities of videogame development in a capitalist society
If we hit that reality, sure.
I see the work here, though. And we're far, far far away from AAA adoption of such techniques. What they generate for anything more than static textures is unusable for production. And I see LLM's tapering out instead of exponentially increasing quality.
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Comment on Indie Game Awards rescinds Clair Obscur's GOTY wins over use of generative AI [for now-removed background assets] in ~games
raze2012 Link Parentlone coder. I sure as heck do not have an edge on artists. Art sells. And right now using any gen AI is a PR disaster, legal minefield, and simply grifty industry as of now to contribute to. Just...A lone coder without the money to hire an artist and without the skill to create more than programmer art now has a competitive edge.
lone coder. I sure as heck do not have an edge on artists. Art sells. And right now using any gen AI is a PR disaster, legal minefield, and simply grifty industry as of now to contribute to.
Just gotta do it the old fashioned way and spend a few years working on 3d modeling. That should at least get my stuff presentable to artists who can iterate on my game to make it truly shine.
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Comment on Indie Game Awards rescinds Clair Obscur's GOTY wins over use of generative AI [for now-removed background assets] in ~games
raze2012 Link ParentLike it or not, the rules do state to disclose if you use any Gen AI in development, not just release. Lying is never a good image, especially if your goal is to have widespread adoption.Like it or not, the rules do state to disclose if you use any Gen AI in development, not just release. Lying is never a good image, especially if your goal is to have widespread adoption.
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Comment on Indie Game Awards rescinds Clair Obscur's GOTY wins over use of generative AI [for now-removed background assets] in ~games
raze2012 Link ParentIt'd be nice, but the vast majority of games do not want to report their development budget. That'd be one thing that would be nice to regulate if we were to have any intervention. Hollywood box...It'd be nice, but the vast majority of games do not want to report their development budget. That'd be one thing that would be nice to regulate if we were to have any intervention. Hollywood box office numbers come from similar regulations.
Of course, the other big issue is cost of living. 500k in California wouldn't go far if you need to pay any engineer or artist. 500k in Belgium may as well be a AA production.
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Comment on Indie Game Awards rescinds Clair Obscur's GOTY wins over use of generative AI [for now-removed background assets] in ~games
raze2012 Link ParentWhat's the budget of Silksong?Take Silksong. Independently developed with a monstrous budget.
What's the budget of Silksong?
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Comment on AI isn’t replacing jobs. AI spending is. in ~comp
raze2012 Link Parentwell it's not what your coulleages at Google do. Many are being laid off and the ones that remain want to lay low. it's what the outsourced engineers do. That's why the headcount is growing. And I...I wonder what they all do?
well it's not what your coulleages at Google do. Many are being laid off and the ones that remain want to lay low.
it's what the outsourced engineers do. That's why the headcount is growing. And I guess the answer is a mix of "training AI" and "maintaining existing systems". We're not really in innovation mode in any non-AI sector, so cheaping out enough to make sure existing revenue doesn't malfunction is enough.
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Comment on AI isn’t replacing jobs. AI spending is. in ~comp
raze2012 Link ParentThat does seem to match the thesis of this article. It's not the tool per se, but how stupidly and wildly it is being weilded. we're taking a specialty screwdriver and treating it like an army...That does seem to match the thesis of this article. It's not the tool per se, but how stupidly and wildly it is being weilded. we're taking a specialty screwdriver and treating it like an army swiss knife. Cutting? AI. Drilling? AI. Wine cork? AI. My failing love life? AI.
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Comment on AI isn’t replacing jobs. AI spending is. in ~comp
raze2012 Link ParentI'm going to guess because they're explosive quarterly earnings jumped their stock 40+% a few months back, so it's clear that they do not need to compete on quality. Nor even care about productive...I'm going to guess because they're explosive quarterly earnings jumped their stock 40+% a few months back, so it's clear that they do not need to compete on quality. Nor even care about productive engineers.
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Comment on Five browser extensions to make every website more useful in ~tech
raze2012 Link ParentWith the death of Pocket, Glasp might actually be a handy replacement for my hierarchy of bookmarks. Pocket used to fit between that "I'll pin that tab for today/tomorrow" and "I'll make a...With the death of Pocket, Glasp might actually be a handy replacement for my hierarchy of bookmarks. Pocket used to fit between that "I'll pin that tab for today/tomorrow" and "I'll make a bookmark that will last for months/years". If it can even let me annotate specific passages and images that's all the better.
But I do agree that everything else wasn't jumping out at me. Most sites these days have a dark mode built in, I don't need something to clean up my speech (I write just like this everywhere and some shorter form sites have already accused me of using AI. I'll take the backhanded compliment ), I have recording software already, and Firefox has a reading mode built in (and I ofc have an ad blocker).
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Comment on Statement from Mozilla's new CEO in ~tech
raze2012 Link ParentYes. And I still disagree people will pay for it. Not as extreme as "literally no one will pay for it ever!". People paid for plenty of failed businesses after all. But I wanted to use your lens...You initially disagreed with the idea that people are willing to pay for it, so I provided what I believe to be a solid basis for the idea that people will pay for it.
Yes. And I still disagree people will pay for it. Not as extreme as "literally no one will pay for it ever!". People paid for plenty of failed businesses after all. But I wanted to use your lens and provide the issues even with the current, lofty projections stated.
To be more precise in my phrasing, the premium model for AI as a consumer good is not viable. That's why, as usual for tech, companies are already considering ways to incentivize ad integrations and repeat all the lessons of the 2010's. Get people in for free/cheap, monetize later.
But we're not in those times with trillions to burn on the side. Consumers aren't in a great place economically, and companies are being propped up from speculation and hype. In other words, we're in a bubble. This isn't a sustainable business model.
The model's monetization will get worse before the bubble pops and everyone will suffer as a result. Even the thought of adding ads as companies pour trillions in a few years into this is such a death knell in my eyes.
m saying that I can see why an organization like Mozilla or company within that organization like Firefox would pursue this avenue because I see a legitimate possibility for revenue for a browser which so far has had no real ways of monetizing their product on a wide scale.
And I'm saying Mozilla is cutting its arm off prematurely in hopes that it can get a cool cyborg arm. The cyborg arm is cool, maybe objectively better than a human arm with enough iteration. Meanwhile, that arm was useful right now and could still grow. Just not as quick as a cyborg arm.
But the tech isn't there yet, and no ones providing ways to suggest well get there. We just assume we'll figure it out as we go along like this is some night out to town. I just see a foolish one armed man instead of a visionary, trying to fit in with everyone else who cut off their arms (or pretended to do so).
If nothing else, Google and co. Are hydras, so they can spare a dozen arms and even a dozen heads. I don't think Mozilla is the same in that regard.
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Comment on Statement from Mozilla's new CEO in ~tech
raze2012 Link ParentI don't doubt it. But software was not your primary (and in many modern cases, only) interface with the world in 1999. A billboard can only be so annoying before regulations kick in. You won't...there was ABSOLUTELY intrusive and miserable software around then
I don't doubt it. But software was not your primary (and in many modern cases, only) interface with the world in 1999. A billboard can only be so annoying before regulations kick in. You won't have pop ups dirupting your magazine article. The assistant at a physical store will only poke you so much before giving up. There's extreme cases, but in a normal society the impact is limited. Digital services just make it much faster and easier to poke at you day-in and day-out.
Those options were viable back then. it grows less and less viable by the day to not have an email to sign up for stuff, apps to log into, and a website for a purely digitial frontend to a warehouse. So in comes the data mining, ads, popups, wonky chatbots, and all the good stuff of the last 20 years of Big Tech squeezing the user dry.
And it's not just the internet. CES has basically been a year by year historical showing of "this is the bullshit we'll be shoving down your throat for the next cycle that fits in 4% of cases and is going on EVERYTHING!"
That's fair. But that's business. And business pays you to put up with a lot of BS. It's a bit different from me casually reading some news at home and needing an adblocker, cookie banner extension, and X-ing out a subscription pop-up just to read a short update.
There are different factors in where our society is now, but I don't think this changes my main point that AI isn't going anywhere
I wasn't really arguing that much. I was simply arguing that I will keep saying "AI sucks" as long as it continues to bother me. And I was using 20 years of other ways tech has continued to bother me to support the notion that AI will not be any different in respecting my boundaries, no matter how the technology develops. The same incentives and lack of regulations means they will keep poking me. I don't want to be poked.
If that's tiring to hear, then I apologize. But at some point there's not much conversation to have and you simply need to push back in a less refined way. We need to go in circles because that seems to be the only thing that works, continual yelling on social media. Not a proper forum of debate and feedback. Not our representatives. Not even refusing to spend, because shareholders will spend for you (and they aren't spending in hopes of a good product).
Yelling makes shareholders squeamish, but let me know if there's a more effective means.
The Bureau of Labor Statistics?
https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/civilian-unemployment-rate.htm
it's no secret (at least, until October tried to hide the numbers) that unemployment has been inching up in the US for the past few quarters. It's what's causing the feds to start slashing rates again.
Digging into the monthly reports, you see pretty much all industries are down as well. Here's August's job reports before Trump fired the previous statistician reporting the numbers. "Professional and business services", which tech is under, is down 17, 000 in a single month. "Computer systems design and related services" specifically was down 3.3k that month (heck, it's down even more in September, surprisingly. which was an overall more positive jobs report).