18 votes

Weekly Israel-Hamas war megathread - week of May 6

This thread is posted weekly - please try to post all relevant Israel-Hamas war content in here, such as news, updates, opinion articles, etc. Extremely significant events may warrant a separate topic, but almost all should be posted in here.

Please try to avoid antagonistic arguments and bickering matches. Comment threads that devolve into unproductive arguments may be removed so that the overall topic is able to continue.

57 comments

  1. [10]
    kwyjibo
    Link
    “You Have Been Warned”: Republican Senators Threaten the ICC Prosecutor over Possible Israel Arrest Warrants

    “You Have Been Warned”: Republican Senators Threaten the ICC Prosecutor over Possible Israel Arrest Warrants

    In a terse, one-page letter obtained exclusively by Zeteo, and signed by 12 GOP senators, including Tom Cotton of Arkansas, Florida’s Marco Rubio, and Ted Cruz of Texas, Khan is informed that any attempt by the ICC to hold Netanyahu and his colleagues to account for their actions in Gaza will be interpreted “not only as a threat to Israel’s sovereignty but to the sovereignty of the United States.”

    “Target Israel and we will target you,” the senators tell Khan, adding that they will “sanction your employees and associates, and bar you and your families from the United States.”

    On Friday, The Hague-based office of the chief prosecutor published an unprecedented statement on Twitter, calling for an end to threats of retaliation against the ICC and attempts to “impede” and “intimidate” its officials. The statement added that such threats could “constitute an offence against the administration of justice” under the Rome Statute.

    The timing of this rare public rebuke now makes more sense: The U.S. senators’ letter was sent to Khan a week earlier, on April 24.

    If Khan does issue an arrest warrant for Netanyahu in the coming days, it won’t be the first time he has gone after a controversial world leader over alleged war crimes – or been sanctioned for doing so. In March 2023, the ICC issued an arrest warrant for Russian President Vladimir Putin for his alleged responsibility “for the war crime of unlawful deportation of population (children).” The Russian government responded by putting Khan on a “wanted” list.

    24 votes
    1. thearctic
      Link Parent
      It's worrying the extent to which this is phrased like a physical threat.

      It's worrying the extent to which this is phrased like a physical threat.

      17 votes
    2. smoontjes
      Link Parent
      This should not be a surprise to be honest. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Protection_Act

      This should not be a surprise to be honest.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Protection_Act

      The Act gives the president power to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court".

      13 votes
    3. [7]
      skybrian
      Link Parent
      Seems like an empty threat, unless Trump wins?

      Seems like an empty threat, unless Trump wins?

      3 votes
      1. [6]
        LukeZaz
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        You say that, but Biden's attitude towards Israel's actions has been awfully supportive. He's scarcely done any pushback whatsoever, and pushed through funding for more weapons to be sent to them...

        You say that, but Biden's attitude towards Israel's actions has been awfully supportive. He's scarcely done any pushback whatsoever, and pushed through funding for more weapons to be sent to them several times. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he – while perhaps not actively pushing for it – was perfectly fine with allowing Republicans to go through with this.

        12 votes
        1. [5]
          skybrian
          Link Parent
          The thing is, Congress couldn't actually do anything unless they passed a law, and I doubt they have the votes. So what sort of action would Biden want to put his name on? I doubt he wants to back...

          The thing is, Congress couldn't actually do anything unless they passed a law, and I doubt they have the votes. So what sort of action would Biden want to put his name on? I doubt he wants to back Republicans up on their nonsense. It wouldn't play well with Democrats in an election year.

          6 votes
          1. [4]
            LukeZaz
            Link Parent
            He could start by publicly calling for a ceasefire, or condemning the atrocities being committed. That would require only his voice. Besides, if I recall correctly, he sure managed to get weapons...

            He could start by publicly calling for a ceasefire, or condemning the atrocities being committed. That would require only his voice. Besides, if I recall correctly, he sure managed to get weapons given to Israel without congressional approval just fine.

            Biden has agency, and he is choosing deliberate inaction at best.

            7 votes
            1. [3]
              skybrian
              Link Parent
              These criticisms don’t have anything to do with the question of whether Biden would cooperate with threats of retaliation against the ICC.

              These criticisms don’t have anything to do with the question of whether Biden would cooperate with threats of retaliation against the ICC.

              5 votes
              1. [2]
                LukeZaz
                Link Parent
                I’d thought the conversation had drifted some. My mistake. Still, there's a point to be made here in that Biden is choosing not to help (and in many ways continue to harm) Palestine, because he...

                I’d thought the conversation had drifted some. My mistake.

                Still, there's a point to be made here in that Biden is choosing not to help (and in many ways continue to harm) Palestine, because he would rather back Israel. If that’s what he does there, how could I trust him to do anything to help the ICC? From my perspective, he’s already decided to favor Netanyahu quite strongly.

                5 votes
                1. skybrian
                  Link Parent
                  Thanks! I think the Biden administration’s position towards Israel is more nuanced than that. They’re still backing Israel, but maybe they’re also frustrated and annoyed with them? For example,...

                  Thanks!

                  I think the Biden administration’s position towards Israel is more nuanced than that. They’re still backing Israel, but maybe they’re also frustrated and annoyed with them?

                  For example, the US frequently uses its UN Security Council veto to support Israel. But in March, there was a UN resolution demanding an immediate cease fire in Gaza, and the US… abstained.

                  That’s hardly the same as a public call for a ceasefire. The US denied that it was a shift in their policy! But I don’t think anyone believes that denial, least of all Israel. It seems to be a rather common diplomatic move, to do something and deny that you’re doing it.

                  Why would the Biden administration do that, instead of being open about it? Publicly calling for a ceasefire would play well with many Democrats, and it’s an election year.

                  It seems pretty clear that the Biden administration wants a ceasefire. Perhaps they don’t think that publicly calling for one would do what outsiders think it would do. Maybe the goal is to actually get a ceasefire, not to go on the record as wanting one? Somehow they don’t seem to think that being straightforward about it is the way to go.

                  Assuming people mean what they say is certainly a lot simpler, but I don’t think it applies in tricky diplomatic negotiations like this. So we end up speculating a lot about what they’re really up to, and could easily get it wrong. Maybe someday we’ll find out the truth in a historical account.

                  17 votes
  2. [25]
    Melvincible
    Link
    Hamas says it accepted ceasefire proposal
    9 votes
    1. [24]
      unkz
      Link Parent
      But not Israel’s actual proposal, some other thing In effect, Hamas has offered their own ceasefire proposal.

      But not Israel’s actual proposal, some other thing

      Israeli official says Hamas accepted 'softened' agreement that Israel does not agree to

      In effect, Hamas has offered their own ceasefire proposal.

      13 votes
      1. [23]
        LukeZaz
        Link Parent
        Article title: A bit into the article, from White House spokesperson John Kirby: Last I checked, Qatar, Egypt and the director of the CIA weren't "Hamas." Sounds like a good deal to me. Though,...
        • Exemplary

        In effect, Hamas has offered their own ceasefire proposal.

        Article title:

        Hamas says it accepts Qatar and Egypt's ceasefire proposal.

        A bit into the article, from White House spokesperson John Kirby:

        "Without speaking about the details about the response by Hamas, I think it's safe to conclude that [Hamas' response] came as a result of or at the end of these continued discussions that [CIA director William Burns] was a part of."

        Last I checked, Qatar, Egypt and the director of the CIA weren't "Hamas."

        Ceasefire mediators have not publicly detailed the full contents of the truce, but the broad contours of the deal involve a six-week pause in fighting, in which Hamas would release Israeli captives it has held since 7 October when it attacked southern Israel.

        In exchange, Israel is expected to release an unspecified number of Palestinian prisoners, withdraw its troops from certain regions of the Gaza Strip and allow Palestinians to travel from the south of the territory to the north.

        Sounds like a good deal to me. Though, frankly, I think Israel should just stop bombing Gaza generally, with or without a deal, so I'd be in favor of a ceasefire regardless.

        18 votes
        1. [2]
          Interesting
          Link Parent
          That deal, for first stage of the exchange, allows Hamas to provide either living hostages, or dead bodies. Meaning, they lack any incentives to keep that category of hostages alive. That alone...

          That deal, for first stage of the exchange, allows Hamas to provide either living hostages, or dead bodies. Meaning, they lack any incentives to keep that category of hostages alive.

          That alone would have been enough to sink this "deal".

          14 votes
          1. LukeZaz
            Link Parent
            I’d suggest you maybe not interpret the sparse, vague information we have as though it were a legal document? We don’t have the exact text in front of us. The quote I provided itself says this was...

            I’d suggest you maybe not interpret the sparse, vague information we have as though it were a legal document? We don’t have the exact text in front of us. The quote I provided itself says this was only the “broad contours” of the proposal.

            That said, acting like Hamas would shoot the hostages before handing them over is patently ridiculous. Regardless of the wording, Israel would immediately back out of the deal in such a scenario, and all involved parties would know that.

            If you’re worried about the safety of hostages, a better thing to be concerned about might be the fact that Israel is seemingly doing everything it can to avoid a ceasefire, even as it bombs the areas the hostages are likely being kept in.

            21 votes
        2. ChingShih
          Link Parent
          It's wild that we've normalized the idea that anyone outside of the State Department or POTUS or VPOTUS is doing any amount of diplomacy. When the CIA was created, this was not their mandate. This...

          CIA Director

          It's wild that we've normalized the idea that anyone outside of the State Department or POTUS or VPOTUS is doing any amount of diplomacy. When the CIA was created, this was not their mandate. This is not healthy, not beneficial, and looking at historical and recent examples, doesn't seem to work towards solutions involving a lasting peace. There have been some fairly recent books talking about foreign policy failures in Vietnam and Afghanistan and some of that foreign policy was conducted by agencies not tasked with, or capable of, diplomacy and only looked at projecting foreign policy through their fixed lens.

          8 votes
        3. [19]
          unkz
          Link Parent
          To “accept” a ceasefire proposal presupposes it is actually on the table. This was not. Hamas is offering a proposal to Israel, that they have workshopped with Egypt, Qatar, and the CIA. Nothing...

          To “accept” a ceasefire proposal presupposes it is actually on the table. This was not. Hamas is offering a proposal to Israel, that they have workshopped with Egypt, Qatar, and the CIA. Nothing has been “accepted” in any meaningful sense.

          15 votes
          1. [18]
            LukeZaz
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            This is pointless semantics. The important factor is this: A careful ceasefire proposal was offered, supported by several countries and organizations, and Israel rejected it anyway. I corrected...

            This is pointless semantics. The important factor is this: A careful ceasefire proposal was offered, supported by several countries and organizations, and Israel rejected it anyway. I corrected what I saw not for the sake of technicality, but because it absolves Israel of its callous rejection of an opportunity for peace by implying the proposal to be a farce.

            Israel does not want a ceasefire.

            17 votes
            1. [9]
              unkz
              Link Parent
              Israel offered ceasefire terms of their own and Hamas rejected them. Why does Hamas get a pass and Israel doesn’t? Hamas can get a ceasefire any time they want by simply releasing all the people...

              Israel offered ceasefire terms of their own and Hamas rejected them. Why does Hamas get a pass and Israel doesn’t? Hamas can get a ceasefire any time they want by simply releasing all the people they kidnapped.

              15 votes
              1. [4]
                LukeZaz
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                Yeah, I'm sure Israel, the country that's currently committing war crimes by the bucket, is offering excellent ceasefires that anybody would accept. Look, I criticize Israel and not Hamas because...

                Yeah, I'm sure Israel, the country that's currently committing war crimes by the bucket, is offering excellent ceasefires that anybody would accept.

                Look, I criticize Israel and not Hamas because Hamas is not currently bombing an entire country to the point of ethnic cleansing. They physically can't do what Israel is doing. Israel is under a moral obligation to stop murdering civilians, and so it is their failing that a ceasefire has not occurred. I would be happy if Hamas were open to more kinds of ceasefires, but it's Israel who I distrust to adhere to human decency. This is because Israel is the government best poised to violate it, and – as the last several months have shown – Israel is scarcely held accountable for its actions.

                Besides, have you seen how Israel's spokesman and supporters in the country talk about this? They literally refer to Palestinians as "human animals," and claim incessantly that there are "no innocents" and that everyone in Gaza must be killed. Why is it the IDF you're worried about defending online?

                (edits: tone, elaboration. Trying not to come off as hostile, but this topic isn't an easy one.)

                18 votes
                1. [3]
                  unkz
                  Link Parent
                  This entire situation happened because Hamas murdered and kidnapped hundreds of people. It's continuing because Hamas hasn't released them. Hamas can stop this literally any time they want, but...

                  This entire situation happened because Hamas murdered and kidnapped hundreds of people. It's continuing because Hamas hasn't released them. Hamas can stop this literally any time they want, but they are choosing not to.

                  Israel has an obligation to its citizens to recover hostages and minimize future attacks. Stopping fighting does exactly nothing to help that goal, and just gives Hamas time to rearm and commit another atrocity.

                  Hamas also has an obligation to its citizens -- keep in mind they are the elected government of Gaza -- but they are not fulfilling that obligation and are instead doing the exact opposite, by holding and killing hostages while knowing that as long as they refuse to release the hostages, Israel will continue attacking. Every action Hamas takes hurts Palestinians, who they should be helping instead.

                  9 votes
                  1. LukeZaz
                    (edited )
                    Link Parent
                    Do you think this all started on October 7th, and nothing came before? Israel has been abusing the people of Palestine for over 70 years now. If you're interested in hearing more, I'd really...

                    This entire situation happened because Hamas murdered and kidnapped hundreds of people. It's continuing because Hamas hasn't released them. Hamas can stop this literally any time they want, but they are choosing not to.

                    Do you think this all started on October 7th, and nothing came before? Israel has been abusing the people of Palestine for over 70 years now. If you're interested in hearing more, I'd really recommend watching this documentary. It covers a small portion of what happened — namely the Gaza border protests. But suffice to say: Israel is and always was a colonial state. It stole land, and killed the native population to enforce such. It has continued to do so for decades since, stealing yet more land over the years. In modern times, Palestinians are second-class citizens in even their own country, as Israel controls access to food, water, electricity, and every border crossing.

                    If anyone acted first, it was Israel and its allies. Hamas, and organizations like it, awful though they are, are the result of decades of abuse.

                    Israel has an obligation to its citizens to recover hostages and minimize future attacks. Stopping fighting does exactly nothing to help that goal, and just gives Hamas time to rearm and commit another atrocity.

                    I've said it elsewhere in this thread, but nothing Israel is doing is accomplishing either of these goals. All it serves to do is ruin their international reputation, further push the people of Gaza into supporting Hamas (as their choice increasingly becomes "fight or die"), risks the lives of the hostages by way of collateral damage, and last but not least, murders innocents en masse.

                    [...] -- keep in mind they are the elected government of Gaza --

                    The last election in Gaza was held in 2006. That is not legitimate governance.

                    by holding and killing hostages while knowing that as long as they refuse to release the hostages, Israel will continue attacking.

                    Judging by the past, Israel would continue attacking for some time anyways, and even after they stopped, would still be committing horrible human rights abuses.

                    Hamas does not have the power to stop Israel in any way. I firmly believe Hamas should release the hostages regardless, out of simple respect for human life if nothing else. But I do not think for a second that Israel would stop killing innocents in response.

                    18 votes
                  2. Melvincible
                    Link Parent
                    Israel also has an obligation to protect the citizens in the territories they occupy. They don't need to stop fighting hamas to do. I don't think anybody in the world cares if they kill hamas...

                    Israel also has an obligation to protect the citizens in the territories they occupy. They don't need to stop fighting hamas to do. I don't think anybody in the world cares if they kill hamas fighters. Why do you think that returning hostages would end the violence? I'm genuinely curious. Everything I've heard and seen from any israeli government person is that the fighting would continue after hostages were exchanged. Have you seen otherwise?

                    11 votes
              2. Melvincible
                Link Parent
                That seems a bit disingenuous. Netanyahu has been more than clear that there is not going to be a cessation of fighting after any hostage exchange. Every single version of the proposed cease fires...

                Hamas can get a ceasefire any time they want by simply releasing all the people they kidnapped

                That seems a bit disingenuous. Netanyahu has been more than clear that there is not going to be a cessation of fighting after any hostage exchange. Every single version of the proposed cease fires so far included that the pause in fighting would be temporary, and would resume no matter what.

                15 votes
              3. [3]
                skybrian
                Link Parent
                I’m wondering what’s known about the hostages. How many are left? Are they still alive?

                I’m wondering what’s known about the hostages. How many are left? Are they still alive?

                3 votes
                1. [2]
                  unkz
                  Link Parent
                  My guess would be not very many are alive, or Hamas wouldn’t be playing these games about giving back dead bodies instead of live hostages. They’re running low on leverage. In any event, according...

                  My guess would be not very many are alive, or Hamas wouldn’t be playing these games about giving back dead bodies instead of live hostages. They’re running low on leverage.

                  In any event, according to wikipedia there are only 132 possible hostages left to return.

                  As of 3 May 2024, 132 hostages remained in captivity in the Gaza Strip, 128 of whom had been abducted on 7 October 2023; the other four hostages having been captured earlier.

                  7 votes
                  1. sparksbet
                    Link Parent
                    The fact that Israel is indiscriminately bombing where the hostages are being held has also probably not been upping their chances at survival.

                    The fact that Israel is indiscriminately bombing where the hostages are being held has also probably not been upping their chances at survival.

                    5 votes
            2. [3]
              Interesting
              Link Parent
              Israel does not want a ceasefire under conditions that will lead to another October 7th the next time they've made movements towards peace that Gaza seems be responding to and don't have enough...

              Israel does not want a ceasefire under conditions that will lead to another October 7th the next time they've made movements towards peace that Gaza seems be responding to and don't have enough soldiers supervising the border.

              Frankly, it's a standpoint I understand. The Gilad Shalit deal released Sinwar and a thousand others, many of whom who went on to murder, not just combatants, but Israeli civilians. Israel, if it wishes to continue as a state, cannot continue to incentivise Hamas to take hostages by prioritizing their rescue above all else. It's unfortunate, it's fucked up, and it's reality. There are reasons (beyond the cruelty) that the laws of war prohibit taking hostages, and one of those is because the bartering over their lives provides political value in exchange for the destruction the sort of unbalanced war that Hamas provoked. All at the cost of Palestinian civilians, who we can agree have suffered the brunt.

              For all Israel's current administration is not particularly interested in peace, even assuming Hamas is working towards peace in good faith, there are elements in Gaza and the West Bank (particularly the Muslim Brotherhood associated Palestinian Islamic Jihad) who also have no intention for a permanent peace with a Jewish state as its neighbor. So Israel continues its campaign in order to try and exact a high enough cost that what they will eventually give in exchange for the hostages won't be viewed as "worth it" in hindsight.

              10 votes
              1. LukeZaz
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                So the answer is to... what? Kill everybody in Gaza, including the hostages? Because that's what they're doing. What they're also doing is massively incentivizing the people they're hurting to...

                Israel does not want a ceasefire under conditions that will lead to another October 7th the next time they've made movements towards peace that Gaza seems be responding to and don't have enough soldiers supervising the border.

                So the answer is to... what? Kill everybody in Gaza, including the hostages? Because that's what they're doing.

                What they're also doing is massively incentivizing the people they're hurting to join Hamas. That's what you do when you back people into a corner and give them no option but death: They join the nearest resistance movement they can, even if it's nasty as hell. Honestly, I'm impressed (and glad) at how many Palestinians are still critical of Hamas after all this.

                It's worth noting by the way that, before October 7th, conditions in Gaza still weren't good. It was and still is described as an "open-air prison" for a reason. And Gazans tried to remedy this peacefully. A protest in 2018-2019 sought to get Israel to back off and stop abusing the people of Gaza, and Israel responded with snipers on everyone from medics to children. Israel's government was never interested in peace.

                So Israel continues its campaign in order to try and exact a high enough cost that what they will eventually give in exchange for the hostages won't be viewed as "worth it" in hindsight.

                This will absolutely never work. Not only does deterrence virtually never work anywhere to begin with, it also presumes that those being deterred would care about the punishment. I think it's safe to say Hamas is more than willing to sacrifice Palestinian lives to accomplish its goals. Also, this is collective punishment, which is a war crime.

                12 votes
              2. skybrian
                Link Parent
                This seems a bit confused between what a ceasefire and a peace treaty does. A ceasefire isn't a peace treaty and doesn't make anything permanent. It might lead to a peace treaty, though. It's a...

                This seems a bit confused between what a ceasefire and a peace treaty does. A ceasefire isn't a peace treaty and doesn't make anything permanent. It might lead to a peace treaty, though.

                It's a pipe dream anyway. I suppose they are hoping for something like the peace treaty like they have with Egypt, but they're not negotiating with a state. Future terrorists can't be held to agreements made now, and we can be sure that today's suffering will result in future terrorism.

                9 votes
            3. [5]
              waxwing
              Link Parent
              I think it's pretty clear that neither the Israeli government nor Hamas are negotiating in good-faith here; neither party wants a ceasefire. It's an odd situation: there is significant...

              I think it's pretty clear that neither the Israeli government nor Hamas are negotiating in good-faith here; neither party wants a ceasefire.

              It's an odd situation: there is significant international pressure on both sides to continue negotiations, but it's harder to apply pressure to agree a deal, since each side can blame the other for being unreasonable.

              8 votes
              1. [4]
                LukeZaz
                Link Parent
                This is true, but the way I see it, as I've articulated in another comment a bit ago, is that Israel is the one who's responsibility it is to get a ceasefire to happen. This is for two reasons:...

                This is true, but the way I see it, as I've articulated in another comment a bit ago, is that Israel is the one who's responsibility it is to get a ceasefire to happen. This is for two reasons:

                1. Rescuing hostages requires that the hostages be alive, and
                2. Israel is indiscriminately killing almost anyone they find in Gaza whatsoever.

                Hamas has done awful things; October 7th is no minor matter. But they aren't engaging in mass-scale collective punishment, nor are they even remotely capable (let alone attempting) to obliterate an entire nation. Israel is the one in power, here, and the one doing virtually all of the murdering now. It is on them to stop. If they want the hostages back – and I'll be frank with you, I don't think Netanyahu gives a damn – the best way to do that is to not raze the city they're in.

                10 votes
                1. [3]
                  EpicAglet
                  Link Parent
                  That's a bit unfair though. Regardless of who's doing what in the conflict, a ceasefire would involve some kind of agreement between both parties. So unless both sides are working towards that...

                  This is true, but the way I see it, as I've articulated in another comment a bit ago, is that Israel is the one who's responsibility it is to get a ceasefire to happen.

                  That's a bit unfair though. Regardless of who's doing what in the conflict, a ceasefire would involve some kind of agreement between both parties. So unless both sides are working towards that it's not going to happen. Solely putting the responsibility on the Israelis is then unfair.

                  6 votes
                  1. [2]
                    Melvincible
                    Link Parent
                    Giving both sides equal responsibility for ending the genocide is not really equitable. They could stop the genocide and still fight hamas. They don't need any sort of ceasefire deal to stop...

                    Giving both sides equal responsibility for ending the genocide is not really equitable. They could stop the genocide and still fight hamas. They don't need any sort of ceasefire deal to stop targeting places that have civilians in them. They are absolutely 100% responsible for what they are doing.

                    14 votes
                    1. EpicAglet
                      Link Parent
                      But that's a different matter than a ceasefire. A ceasefire requires both sides

                      But that's a different matter than a ceasefire. A ceasefire requires both sides

                      6 votes
  3. ackables
    Link
    ‘If they go into Rafah, I’m not going to be supplying the weapons,’ Biden says.

    ‘If they go into Rafah, I’m not going to be supplying the weapons,’ Biden says.

    “If they go into Rafah, I’m not going to be supplying the weapons that have been used historically to deal with Rafah, to deal with the cities, to deal with that problem,” Mr. Biden said in an interview with CNN’s Erin Burnett on Wednesday.

    In the interview, Mr. Biden also acknowledged in a way that he has rarely done that American bombs have killed innocent Palestinians. “Civilians have been killed in Gaza as a consequence of those bombs and other ways in which they go after population centers,” Mr. Biden said.

    In the CNN interview, Mr. Biden said that he had warned Mr. Netanyahu against sending the Israeli military into civilian areas of Rafah. “It’s just wrong,” Mr. Biden said. “We’re not going to supply the weapons and artillery shells. I’ve made it clear to Bibi and the war cabinet that they’re not going to get our support if in fact they go into these population centers.”

    9 votes
  4. skybrian
    Link
    Israeli military takes control of vital Rafah crossing from Gaza into Egypt (Reuters) ...

    Israeli military takes control of vital Rafah crossing from Gaza into Egypt (Reuters)

    Israeli Army Radio announced its forces had taken control of the Palestinian side of the Rafah crossing on Tuesday morning and army footage showed tanks rolling through the complex and the Israeli flag raised on the Gaza side.

    Despite international appeals for Israel to hold off an assault on Rafah, Israeli tanks and planes also attacked several areas and houses there overnight. The Gaza health ministry said Israeli strikes across the enclave had killed 54 Palestinians and wounded 96 others in the past 24 hours.

    ...

    A Gaza border authority spokesperson said the Rafah crossing, a vital route for aid into the devastated enclave, was now closed. Red Crescent sources in Egypt said aid shipments had completely halted at Rafah and at the Israeli-controlled Kerem Shalom crossing.

    7 votes
  5. skybrian
    Link
    U.S. delays arms shipments to Israel amid Rafah tensions (Washington Post) …

    U.S. delays arms shipments to Israel amid Rafah tensions (Washington Post)

    The White House and State Department declined to explain the decision, but it is the first known instance of a delay in U.S. arms transfers since the Oct. 7 Hamas-led attack into Israel that killed more than 1,200 people.

    Since then, the United States has surged tens of thousands of bombs and missiles to its ally even as huge swaths of Gaza have been turned to rubble and the death toll among Palestinians has ballooned to more than 34,000, many of them women and children, according to local health authorities. President Biden has described the bombing as “indiscriminate,” but he has been reluctant to leverage weapons transfers to try to force a change in Israel’s behavior.

    One U.S. official described the move as a “shot across the bow” intended to underscore to Israeli leaders the seriousness of U.S. concerns about the offensive in Rafah, where more than 1 million displaced Palestinians are massed in camps near Gaza’s border with Egypt.

    U.S. officials remain hopeful that a hostage deal that includes a cease-fire can forestall a full-scale Israeli invasion but those prospects became bleaker with the start of the Israeli operation.
    Negotiators “should be able to close the remaining gaps” between Israel and Hamas, Kirby told reporters. “Everybody is coming to the table,” including delegations from both Israel and Hamas, Kirby said of talks being held in Cairo.

    Asked how Hamas’s insistence that any cease-fire be permanent could be reconciled with Israel’s position that it would agree only to a temporary pause in fighting to secure the release of hostages, Kirby said: “I really don’t want to get into talking about the specific parameters.”

    6 votes
  6. skybrian
    (edited )
    Link
    ‘Didn’t fall from the sky’: Biden threat follows months of feeling PM ignored his warnings (The Times of Israel) … … … … …

    ‘Didn’t fall from the sky’: Biden threat follows months of feeling PM ignored his warnings (The Times of Israel)

    “The president and his team have been clear for several [months] that we do not support a major ground operation in Rafah where more than one million people are sheltering with nowhere safe to go,” White House National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby said Thursday, noting that this message was conveyed publicly and privately to Netanyahu. “The Israeli government has understood this for some time now.”

    “Civilians have been killed in Gaza as a consequence of those bombs and other ways in which [Israel] goes after population centers,” Biden told CNN when asked “have those bombs been used to kill civilians in Gaza,” explaining his decision to hold up a shipment of high payload munitions to Israel last week. “It’s just wrong. We’re not going to supply the weapons and artillery shells.”

    As for humanitarian assistance and deconfliction, the two US officials said it took until the IDF strike that killed seven World Central Kitchen workers on April 1 for Israel to implement a series of measures to significantly expand the amount of aid entering Gaza and protect the people delivering it.

    The past month regularly featured days where nearly 400 trucks of aid entered the Strip — still 100 trucks less than the daily average before the war, but the maritime route is expected to be operational in the coming days and Washington says it will cover that difference.

    The uptick in aid has been difficult to maintain, though, dropping again this week as Israel began a limited operation to take over the Palestinian side of the Rafah Crossing, shutting it down for the delivery of aid.

    Israel also closed its nearby Kerem Shalom Crossing into Gaza after a Hamas attack from Rafah over the weekend killed four IDF troops and wounded 10 others stationed nearby. The crossing was reopened on Wednesday, when another soldier was wounded there by a Hamas rocket barrage, but the number of aid trucks passing through has been far more limited since.

    The second US official told The Times of Israel that concerns of another downward trend in aid delivery, just as fears over a potential famine in northern Gaza had eased, was on top of mind for the administration in the days leading up to Biden’s CNN interview.

    Another issue the Biden administration has harped on since the days after October 7 was the necessity for Israel to immediately begin planning for who will take over Gaza once the war ends.

    “We’ll help you get [Hamas leader Yahya] Sinwar,” Biden recalled telling Netanyahu during the CNN interview.

    “But don’t make the same mistake we made in America [after 9/11],” the president added, lamenting what he felt had been the US’s inability to plan strategically upon invading Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Netanyahu’s far-right coalition partners have called for Israel to permanently occupy Gaza and reestablish settlements in the Palestinian territory. The premier has signaled his opposition to these steps but has been criticized for blocking clear alternatives to Hamas’s rule, leaving US officials concerned that Gaza will either remain in Hamas’s hands or will be governed by anarchy.

    Finally, after Biden’s threat on Wednesday, the Kan public broadcaster reported that Netanyahu agreed to hold a war cabinet meeting to discuss the post-war management of Gaza.

    “We’ve been pushing the Israelis to discuss day-after from the get-go, and we’ve been completely ignored. As a result, Israeli soldiers are returning a second and third time to the same areas they previously cleared Hamas fighters from,” said the second US official.

    “All throughout this, we continued regular shipments of weapons, but they knew this wasn’t going to be able to go on forever,” the official continued. “The president’s comments [to CNN] didn’t fall from the sky.”

    The US official rejected the notion that the threat was part of a politically motivated effort to appease progressives who Biden might need in order to get re-elected. The president said in the CNN interview that he “absolutely” heard the pro-Palestinian students protesting against Israel, before hinting they were far less representative than they seem.

    5 votes
  7. smoontjes
    Link
    This is old news but I personally missed it, so I wanted to share here:

    This is old news but I personally missed it, so I wanted to share here:

    More damage than Dresden

    The Financial Times did a statistical analysis that compared Gaza to the Allied bombing campaign over Germany during the Second World War.

    Three cities in Germany were effectively destroyed from the air during that war: Cologne, Hamburg and Dresden. In Hamburg and Dresden, a mix of high explosives and incendiary bombs created the notorious "firestorm" conditions that caused streets to melt.

    Data analyzed by Scher and Van Den Hoek shows that by Dec. 5, the percentage of Gaza's buildings that had been damaged or destroyed already had surpassed the destruction in Cologne and Dresden, and was approaching the level of Hamburg.

    5 votes
  8. skybrian
    Link
    Why Biden finally decided to speak out on college protest violence (Politico)

    Why Biden finally decided to speak out on college protest violence (Politico)

    On Wednesday, Biden’s interagency task force on antisemitism gathered to discuss how to more quickly advance some of its policy items, according to a person familiar with the discussion. […] The officials expressed urgency about implementing federal policies to counter antisemitism, such as protecting students on campuses.

    In addition, Second Gentleman Doug Emhoff, the nation’s most prominent Jewish official and the administration’s most high-profile official on combating antisemitism, held private calls last week with Jewish community leaders at Columbia University.

    The central question inside the White House has been just how involved the president himself should be in responding to the protests. Until Thursday, Biden had said relatively little. The White House had issued statements earlier in the week that condemned antisemitism as well as past comments of a student protest leader and the seizure and vandalism of a Columbia University building. But they were released under the names of aides, not the president.

    The White House treated the subject gingerly, reflecting the divided politics in the Democratic Party about the Gaza war. Allies argued that the protesters were a small subset of voters that ultimately would not harm the president during the campaign.

    According to the people familiar with his thinking, Biden’s decision to get more directly involved came in response to protesters occupying buildings and vandalizing them. He felt the acts were extreme enough that they needed to be called out in hopes of deterring similar episodes. Privately and then publicly, the president said that the protesters had a right to peacefully make their point but not threaten violence or commit actual crimes.

    Among Biden advisers, there is hope that the protests will eventually die down, not because of the president’s speech but because of external factors. Schools are soon closing for the summer. And there is hope that a cease-fire deal can soon be struck between Israel and Hamas.

    2 votes
  9. skybrian
    Link
    U.S. offers Israel intelligence, supplies in effort to avoid Rafah invasion (Washington Post) …

    U.S. offers Israel intelligence, supplies in effort to avoid Rafah invasion (Washington Post)

    The Biden administration, working urgently to stave off a full-scale Israeli invasion of Rafah, is offering Israel valuable assistance if it holds back, including sensitive intelligence to help the Israeli military pinpoint the location of Hamas leaders and find the group’s hidden tunnels, according to four people familiar with the U.S. offers.

    American officials have also offered to help provide thousands of shelters so Israel can build tent cities — and to help with the construction of delivery systems for food, water and medicine — so that Palestinians evacuated from Rafah can have a habitable place to live, said the officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity to disclose secret diplomatic talks.

    President Biden and his senior aides have been making such offers over the last several weeks in hopes they will persuade Israel to conduct a more limited and targeted operation in the southern Gaza city, where some 1.3 million Palestinians are sheltering after fleeing there from other parts of Gaza under Israeli orders. Israel has vowed to go into Rafah with “extreme force,” and this week Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu took a number of steps that raised fears at the White House that the long-promised invasion could be materializing.

    Administration officials, including experts from the U.S. Agency for International Development, have told Israel it will take several months to safely relocate hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who are now living in decrepit and unsanitary conditions in Rafah. Israeli officials disagree with that assessment.

    Biden aides are stressing to their Israeli counterparts that Palestinians cannot simply be moved to barren or bombarded parts of Gaza, but that Israel must provide basic infrastructure — including shelter, food, water, medicine and other necessities — so that those who are evacuated will have livable conditions and not simply be exposed to additional famine or disease.

    Experts from across the U.S. government are advising their Israeli counterparts in great detail on how to develop and implement such a humanitarian plan, down to the level of how many tents and how much water would be needed for specific areas, according to several people familiar with the discussions, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss private conversations. Aid groups have said safely evacuating people from Rafah is nearly impossible given the conditions in the rest of Gaza.

    U.S. officials are now working closely with Egypt to find and cut off tunnels that cross the Egypt-Gaza border in the Rafah area, which Hamas has used to replenish militarily, according to two people familiar the discussions.

    2 votes
  10. skybrian
    Link
    I Was Once a Student Protester. The Old Hyperbole Is Now Reality. - Zeynep Tufekci - New York Times - Gift Link … … … …

    I Was Once a Student Protester. The Old Hyperbole Is Now Reality. - Zeynep Tufekci - New York Times -

    Gift Link

    Turkey was still emerging from the long shadow of the 1980 coup. For years, protests were suppressed, sometimes with deadly force. Even a whiff of disruption could get Istanbul shut down, with armored vehicles blocking major roads. Trust me, I said, this is not what a police state looks like.

    When I told my friends back home that Americans thought it was outrageous for the police even to show up at a demonstration, it was considered yet more evidence that I had been recruited by the C.I.A.

    “The American police showed up to a protest and did nothing?” one of my friends scoffed. “Just watched? No arrests? No heads bashed in?” Yeah, right.

    I stayed in academia and made political resistance around the world one of my primary fields of study. The one lesson I learned above all else is that a disproportionate crackdown is often a protest movement’s most powerful accelerant.

    I saw it in Occupy Wall Street in 2011, when a video of penned-in women being pepper-sprayed at close range turned a little-known demonstration into an idea with nationwide reach. I saw it in Gezi Park, Istanbul, in 2013 when people hoping to save the park from demolition were tear-gassed and arrested, their small encampment burned. It helped generate protests that rocked the nation. I saw it in Ferguson, Mo., in 2014, when troopers showing up to a grieving community with armored cars and sniper rifles caused the outrage that fueled a national movement. And just think of what the photographs of police officers turning dogs and hoses on peaceful marchers did for the civil rights movement.

    Will authority figures rise to the moment and respond to the challenge with skilled leadership befitting institutions of higher learning? Or will they panic and enforce crackdowns way out of proportion to any actual threat?

    It’s not looking good so far. At the University of Virginia, in Charlottesville, state police officers in riot gear carrying M4 carbines — the kind of weapons used in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan — and chemical-gas launchers were called in to disperse what many onlookers described as a small, peaceful group with a handful of tents. “None of these folks showed up when I lived on campus and white supremacists with tikki torches yelling ‘Jews will not replace us’ marched through campus as I hid my three kids,” Chad Wellmon, an associate professor at the university, wrote on social media.

    As hard as this may be to believe, absent the glare of publicity, these protests might have been unexceptional — the stuff of college life, for better or worse. Just last year, students at the University of California at Berkeley occupied a library slated for closing — bringing their tents, sleeping bags and air mattresses — for nearly three months. Congress didn’t see the need to hold hearings about it. In 2019, students at Johns Hopkins occupied a building for five weeks to protest the university’s contracts with Immigration and Customs Enforcement and its push for a private police force. Four students were arrested, but the administration quickly announced that the charges would be dropped. Why? Probably for the same reason that Police Chief Laurie Pritchett of Albany, Ga., once quietly arranged for the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. to be released from the city’s jail — against King’s wishes. He knew the clamor would subside and the protest would roll on to the next city.

    The truth is, protests are always messy, with incoherent or objectionable messages sometimes scattered in with eloquent pleas and impassioned testimony. The 1968 antiwar protesters may be celebrated now, but back then a lot of onlookers were horrified to hear people chanting in favor of a victory by Ho Chi Minh’s army. During the Iraq war, I attended demonstrations to which fringe political groups had managed to attach themselves, and I rolled my eyes at their unhinged slogans or crazy manifestoes.

    2 votes
  11. kwyjibo
    Link
    Masha Gessen, whose essay on the Israel-Palestine conflict from the perspective of contemporary Europe caused some controversy late last year, was on Haaretz Podcast this week. It was as...

    Masha Gessen, whose essay on the Israel-Palestine conflict from the perspective of contemporary Europe caused some controversy late last year, was on Haaretz Podcast this week. It was as refreshing and clear eyed as you'd expect from them. It's worth a listen, if you have the time.

    1 vote
  12. [11]
    skybrian
    (edited )
    Link
    Shibboleth - Zadie Smith in the New Yorker - archive I thought this essay interesting because it has clearly stated ethical principles that might sound good at first, but are foreign to my own:...

    Shibboleth - Zadie Smith in the New Yorker - archive

    I thought this essay interesting because it has clearly stated ethical principles that might sound good at first, but are foreign to my own:

    I understand the ethics underpinning the protests to be based on two widely recognized principles:

    1. There is an ethical duty to express solidarity with the weak in any situation that involves oppressive power.

    2. If the machinery of oppressive power is to be trained on the weak, then there is a duty to stop the gears by any means necessary.

    The first principle sometimes takes the “weak” to mean “whoever has the least power,” and sometimes “whoever suffers most,” but most often a combination of both. The second principle, meanwhile, may be used to defend revolutionary violence, although this interpretation has just as often been repudiated by pacifistic radicals, among whom two of the most famous are, of course, Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. In the pacifist’s interpretation, the body that we must place between the gears is not that of our enemy but our own. In doing this, we may pay the ultimate price with our actual bodies, in the non-metaphorical sense. More usually, the risk is to our livelihoods, our reputations, our futures.

    I'm struck by the importance of symbolism in this ethics. I don't really believe in utilitarianism in the sense that I don't think that making a spreadsheet and plugging numbers into it would be useful. But, I do believe in weighing costs against benefits in some way. Actions need to have some chance of success. I'm willing to take getting publicity as a real-world action, but it seems like you should know what you're going tell people once you have their attention.

    By contrast, this ethics seems to be about real costs and symbolic benefits? The "gears" are rhetorical gears in a giant worldwide metaphorical machine. The connections between different parts of the system aren't really dwelled upon.

    And it seems like that's how you get people blocking traffic about something happening on the far side of the world?

    Smith calls herself weak for being unwilling to get arrested over climate change:

    I was asked by my fellow-protesters whether I’d be willing to commit an arrestable offense—one that would likely lead to a conviction and thus make travelling to the United States difficult or even impossible—I’m ashamed to say that I declined that offer. Turns out, I could not give up my relationship with New York City for the future of the planet. I’d just about managed to stop buying plastic bottles (except when very thirsty) and was trying to fly less. But never to see New York again? What pitiful ethical creatures we are (I am)! Falling at the first hurdle!

    Visiting New York City is important to me only to visit family. I'd be unwilling to give that up either. But I wouldn't even consider it unless the result seemed "worth it" in some respect.

    1 vote
    1. [10]
      sparksbet
      Link Parent
      This language seems very disconnected from the actual reality of the current student protests. The current student protestors are largely making very specific demands of their universities. They...

      Actions need to have some chance of success. I'm willing to take getting publicity as a real-world action, but it seems like you should know what you're going tell people once you have their attention. By contrast, this ethics seems to be about real costs and symbolic benefits? The "gears" are rhetorical gears in a giant worldwide metaphorical machine. The connections between different parts of the system aren't really dwelled upon.

      This language seems very disconnected from the actual reality of the current student protests. The current student protestors are largely making very specific demands of their universities. They want them to divest from financially supporting Israel. At some universities they have succeeded at this goal.

      4 votes
      1. [9]
        skybrian
        Link Parent
        I consider divestment to be a symbolic action taken by a university. It probably isn’t going to affect the behind-the-scenes negotiations between the Biden administration and the Israeli government.

        I consider divestment to be a symbolic action taken by a university. It probably isn’t going to affect the behind-the-scenes negotiations between the Biden administration and the Israeli government.

        1 vote
        1. [8]
          sparksbet
          Link Parent
          I suppose any protest can be dismissed as purely symbolic if you ignore the practical demands the people protesting are making of the institutions they're protesting.

          I suppose any protest can be dismissed as purely symbolic if you ignore the practical demands the people protesting are making of the institutions they're protesting.

          4 votes
          1. [7]
            skybrian
            Link Parent
            I’ve generally assumed that this is all about helping people in Gaza. But maybe I’m wrong about that?

            I’ve generally assumed that this is all about helping people in Gaza. But maybe I’m wrong about that?

            1 vote
            1. [2]
              LukeZaz
              Link Parent
              It can be about more than one thing at once. But you’d have to ask the students about that. Though I am confident helping Gazans (and stopping Israel’s atrocities) is indeed the primary goal....

              It can be about more than one thing at once. But you’d have to ask the students about that. Though I am confident helping Gazans (and stopping Israel’s atrocities) is indeed the primary goal.

              Personally, I find divestment wholly insufficient on its own. But I suspect the students asking only for that feel they wouldn’t be able to accomplish anything bigger. Which I would not agree with, but I would understand — they’ve already faced a lot of pushback as is, after all.

              3 votes
              1. skybrian
                Link Parent
                Yes, that’s how I see it too.

                Yes, that’s how I see it too.

                1 vote
            2. [4]
              sparksbet
              Link Parent
              Not sending your tuition money to the country that is currently bombing Gaza seems pretty concrete to me. The degree to which that helps Gaza can be debated, of course, but it probably helps about...

              Not sending your tuition money to the country that is currently bombing Gaza seems pretty concrete to me. The degree to which that helps Gaza can be debated, of course, but it probably helps about as much as anything else a college student can do right now aside from direct donations to families trying to flee Gaza (which is, of course, not something that's mutually exclusive with protesting).

              3 votes
              1. [3]
                skybrian
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                Investors do sometimes fund growing businesses. For example, VC’s fund startups. But for profitable businesses, the money flows in the opposite direction, from the business to investors, through...

                Investors do sometimes fund growing businesses. For example, VC’s fund startups. But for profitable businesses, the money flows in the opposite direction, from the business to investors, through dividends and stock buybacks.

                So it seems like thinking of your tuition money as flowing to Israel is likely mostly an act of imagination. One could just as easily imagine the college getting a small amount of its funding from Israeli businesses. As a symbolic connection, maybe that’s equally objectionable?

                What happens for any given college’s investments? We would need to dive into the details to see. I would guess that on average, foreign investments are a fairly small percentage, Israeli investments are a tiny chunk of those, and they’re mostly profitable businesses. Under those assumptions, direct donations would make a much bigger difference. But it would be interesting to see someone do the analysis for real.

                1 vote
                1. [2]
                  sparksbet
                  Link Parent
                  I definitely agree that direct donations are the most effective. But given that direct donations and protests are not mutually exclusive in any way, I'm not particularly sure comparing them is...

                  I definitely agree that direct donations are the most effective. But given that direct donations and protests are not mutually exclusive in any way, I'm not particularly sure comparing them is relevant -- especially for college students who have more time than money.

                  My understanding is that these campaigns are not just "don't invest in Israeli companies" but "don't do business with companies that do business with Israel", sometimes more specifically targeting companies that contribute the Israeli military. The idea being that if enough consumers and companies are pressured into boycotting and divesting from such businesses, it'll make doing business with Israel and specifically helping the Israeli military toxic for businesses, who will cut ties out of the usual self-interest.

                  It remains to be seen how effective such divestment actually is in the current situation, especially since the US government is still providing plenty of military aid to Israel. But the concept is certainly not without precedent, as international divestment and sanctions against apartheid South Africa did prove quite effective.

                  1 vote
                  1. skybrian
                    Link Parent
                    Once we're talking about government sanctions, I think that's enough to make an impact - though, Cuba is still communist, and Iran keeps doing what Iran does. Sanctions can be undermined by other...

                    Once we're talking about government sanctions, I think that's enough to make an impact - though, Cuba is still communist, and Iran keeps doing what Iran does. Sanctions can be undermined by other governments, but the US has a good chance of enforcing them through the banking system, as we're seeing with Russia. It doesn't stop other countries from trading, but it makes trade more difficult and expensive.

                    It's difficult to do this without government enforcement. If some investors divest from military contractors, they will sell to others who get the benefits of ownership instead, and maybe the new owners are pro-Israeli? Matt Levine often writes about such dilemmas that happen with EGS investing for climate change.

                    Getting US government support for this would require more consensus about Israel in Congress than the US has so far. The Biden administration's pressure on Israel is more direct, but perhaps Israel won't be deterred. Deterrence fails quite a lot in the Middle East, it seems.

                    More international support for sanctions could yet happen if things keep getting worse. (Turkey has halted all trade with Israel.)

                    1 vote