This, of course, follows in the footsteps of another ex-EA executive (John Riccitiello) who caused Unity significant leverage in the game engine market when the engine announced plans to...
This, of course, follows in the footsteps of another ex-EA executive (John Riccitiello) who caused Unity significant leverage in the game engine market when the engine announced plans to retroactively charge Unity developers a fee every time someone installs a game running the Unity engine.
That remains the single worst decision I've seen in any industry. I was genuinely stunned at how every single part of that announcement and decision was just so damn awful and blatantly fueled by...
That remains the single worst decision I've seen in any industry. I was genuinely stunned at how every single part of that announcement and decision was just so damn awful and blatantly fueled by greed, to the point of raising genuine concerns about whether parts of it were even legal. Their initial responses doubling down on the possibility of developers being charged a fee for pirated copies of their games just made it worse.
Unity has a lot of work to do to restore trust among developers, given their attempt at enacting retroactive fees made any game ever developed with the Unity engine a potential liability because who knows what other demands Unity might try to enforce? And hiring someone from EA, which has been ridiculed among the gaming community for its greed for years... Well, doesn't do much for me on the surface. I guess we'll have to wait and see how he handles things.
Given the company's antics I assume he'll be tasked by the board with squeezing the ecosystem for revenue in the short to medium term. It's not primarily about building the best future of the...
Given the company's antics I assume he'll be tasked by the board with squeezing the ecosystem for revenue in the short to medium term. It's not primarily about building the best future of the technology. Not an enviable position for anyone who values the game developers and players more than shareholder value. He sounds like a good fit.
Yeah, they're in their enshittification phase. The devs they managed to swindle back after their last fuck up probably should reconsider if possible since the future seems bleak.
Yeah, they're in their enshittification phase. The devs they managed to swindle back after their last fuck up probably should reconsider if possible since the future seems bleak.
Connections, networking, loads of disposable cash to do these things with, name recognition... there's a lot. The most important factor I think would be the simple fact that it's us who think...
Connections, networking, loads of disposable cash to do these things with, name recognition... there's a lot.
The most important factor I think would be the simple fact that it's us who think they're horrible. Not companies, and not shareholders.
Yup. The CEO isn't guiltless nor powerless per se, but ultimately their decisions are based on the board managing the company, and what they want out of it. And if we're being frank: it feels like...
Yup. The CEO isn't guiltless nor powerless per se, but ultimately their decisions are based on the board managing the company, and what they want out of it.
And if we're being frank: it feels like loyalty is dead even in the C class level. Boards are looking for constant growth and jumping ship the moment they think they hit a peak. There's no skin in the game these days for them, just a matter of timing when and how much of their stock they can push out without disrupting the market.
I spent a lot of time learning Unity and had two projects that I started to believe I might one day might actually release, then all that bs @EnglishMobster referenced went down and I realised I...
I spent a lot of time learning Unity and had two projects that I started to believe I might one day might actually release, then all that bs @EnglishMobster referenced went down and I realised I definitely didn’t want to be hitched to such a capricious company.
I switched to Unreal Engine, but I’ve found it a much more uphill learning process and struggled to troubleshoot let alone make progress. I haven’t forgiven Unity and at this point in time it doesn’t feel like I’m going to get that motivation back any time soon.
I'm not a game dev but I keep up with Godot developments and the somewhat recent 4.0 release has been a leap forward, especially in the 3D space, so depending on when you made the decision to...
I'm not a game dev but I keep up with Godot developments and the somewhat recent 4.0 release has been a leap forward, especially in the 3D space, so depending on when you made the decision to switch to UE, it's probably worth trying out Godot.
I bounced off both UE and Unity back in the day but have made lots of progress in Godot very quickly when I started working with it in January this year. It definitely has the best on-ramp of any...
I bounced off both UE and Unity back in the day but have made lots of progress in Godot very quickly when I started working with it in January this year.
It definitely has the best on-ramp of any of the game engines. 3D is surpassingly competent at this point, you’ll eventually run into things you have to do yourself that are included in other engines but because it doesn’t have every conceivable feature built in it’s really easy to understand everything that is there. (And don’t have to download 100GBs of features you don’t need)
They’re on a 4ish month release cycle so new stuff is coming in at a steady pace and being an open source project you can see everything that is going on and even contribute yourself or just join in on the discussions of where the engine should go next.
I’ve completed a tutorial and had a go at importing some of my own assets, seems really promising so far and im going to continue with it. Thanks for helpful nudge.
I’ve completed a tutorial and had a go at importing some of my own assets, seems really promising so far and im going to continue with it. Thanks for helpful nudge.
I find Epic to be infinitely worse than Unity as a company and how predatory they are. I'm not sure if you are doing yourserlf a favor if you don't like Unity's business model
I find Epic to be infinitely worse than Unity as a company and how predatory they are. I'm not sure if you are doing yourserlf a favor if you don't like Unity's business model
While I dislike Epic's anti-competitive behavior pushing the Epic Store, I won't ignore the reality that UE is a genuinely good product that they support well and is fairly priced. I attribute it...
While I dislike Epic's anti-competitive behavior pushing the Epic Store, I won't ignore the reality that UE is a genuinely good product that they support well and is fairly priced. I attribute it in part due to the fact that game engines are a competitive market in a way that Fortnite Marketplace is not.
Knee-jerk reaction to seeing "Epic," I reckon. A lot of people have deep moral objections to their storefront and exclusivity deals, and how they blatantly just bought a userbase by giving away...
Knee-jerk reaction to seeing "Epic," I reckon. A lot of people have deep moral objections to their storefront and exclusivity deals, and how they blatantly just bought a userbase by giving away games.
I think it's probably a good thing that someone is at least attempting to give Steam a run for their money, even though I love Steam and Valve and have had good experiences with them. I've also got a couple hundred games on my Epic account that I like to periodically survey like a greedy dragon and never install, so maybe I'm biased.
Partially, although my reaction against using Unreal comes from the fact that Tencent has a 40% stake in Epic, and I dont want a portion of my games' income going to them specifically for many...
Partially, although my reaction against using Unreal comes from the fact that Tencent has a 40% stake in Epic, and I dont want a portion of my games' income going to them specifically for many reasons.
As a company, Tencent is worse than Unity, by far. I don't get why people jump ship to Unreal if their reason is they don't like the way the company is run.
Now, before you get the wrong idea, I'm not a Unity defender, I just think shady corps are on both sides.
Use the right tool for the job, and if you have objections to the way a company does business, research the way its competitor does business and who benefits financially if you find success with them instead.
My problem with how Unity is run isn't related to who profits, but more that they've made it so every game ever made by their engine is a potential liability since they're willing to try to apply...
My problem with how Unity is run isn't related to who profits, but more that they've made it so every game ever made by their engine is a potential liability since they're willing to try to apply new terms to game that predate those terms. When I read about their retroactive fees announcement, the feeling I got was like claustrophobia. All I could think about was devs suddenly getting charged fees 5 years after quitting game dev with little warning or notice.
The fact that they would even try to pull that just eradicated any trust in Unity, because who knows what else they'll try to do?
Could you use some examples to demonstrate your point because as is, it's just something I should take your word for? You say Epic is predatory but I'm not understanding how? Sounds like you have...
Could you use some examples to demonstrate your point because as is, it's just something I should take your word for? You say Epic is predatory but I'm not understanding how? Sounds like you have an axe to grind on the consumer side, which is whatever to me. And now Tencent's ownership stake is the reason it's bad? Why is it so bad to choose Unreal over Unity?
If it's because you don't want to support Epic because of how they choose to run their store -- fine. Or because Tencent is Chinese -- fine. But just say that.
To be clear, I don't care that Tencent is Chinese owned, I care about the influence of the CCP on them. What I care about is that they own a large stake in many game companies. I do not want my...
To be clear, I don't care that Tencent is Chinese owned, I care about the influence of the CCP on them. What I care about is that they own a large stake in many game companies.
I do not want my games making money for them, and of course, to be balanced, I don't want want my games making money for (former) EA execs either.
So many of the replies to what I said so far are accusing me of having some sort of hidden motives or unfounded bias. But it really is simple. I don't want to be controlled by a massive corporation.
And while I understood I haven't given very many reasons besides that why others should stay away, my point is the same:
If you don't like the business practices of Unity, you shouldn't be jumping ship to Unreal just because it's a major competitor. You should research the company first. Figure out if it's really the ecosystem you want to be a part of.
If the benefits of switching outweigh the costs/risks, then fine, switch. But don't get blindly tossed from one out of touch corporation to another thinking things will improve.
And that's fine, I just wished you were clear since you used a pretty loaded word "predatory" when that doesn't seem to be your issue at all. It's like you were hiding your true motives that don't...
And that's fine, I just wished you were clear since you used a pretty loaded word "predatory" when that doesn't seem to be your issue at all. It's like you were hiding your true motives that don't actually have that much to do with the issue at hand.
I'm also pretty sure folks are aware that consumers don't like Epic but are you now saying you're boycotting Unreal Engine games or what?
I don't recall saying I'm boycotting anything. I'm saying that switching game engines as a reaction to what Unity has done is fine, but jumping to Unreal without research on Epic games and how...
I don't recall saying I'm boycotting anything.
I'm saying that switching game engines as a reaction to what Unity has done is fine, but jumping to Unreal without research on Epic games and how they operate isn't doing anyone favors.
Neither company should be trusted to benefit the developer and both stand to gain if you do well. So the question comes down to whether a migration of game devs to Unreal benefits us in the end if we give Epic more control of the game developer market.
From where I'm looking, it just seems like you initially were just throwing shade in their direction. Granted, I don't either always think my points through if I'm in a rush or just lazy so no...
From where I'm looking, it just seems like you initially were just throwing shade in their direction. Granted, I don't either always think my points through if I'm in a rush or just lazy so no hard feelings.
At the end of the day, Sweeny still has final say, and Sweeny has a good history with devlopers in the community for decades. This can be easy to forget when all his consumer facing PR these days...
I don't get why people jump ship to Unreal if their reason is they don't like the way the company is run.
At the end of the day, Sweeny still has final say, and Sweeny has a good history with devlopers in the community for decades. This can be easy to forget when all his consumer facing PR these days comes from the store and Fortnite. But the way UE has been managed, the grants being given the games and tools, and the general quality of games released reassures devs that they can get their game out.
And if we're being cynical: what else is there to really trust if you're a) making a 3d game and b) aren't an engine dev ready to dig in deep when (not if) something in an the engine goes awry?
The most mature-ish alternative that is still fully open source is probably Open 3d Engine, a fork of a fork of CryEngine. But documentation is minimal and I can find a grand total of one game announced last month. You'll truly be in the dark unless you have some very passionate community members in some discord willing to help you troubleshoot.
I've also heard really good things about Flax, if you want to give up the Open Source aspect (it's source readable, like Unreal) for better official support. It's royalty model is lower than Ue though (4% when exceeding 250k revenue, instead of 5% exceeding 1M)
I'm told the engine is a mess, with missing features, strange design decisions, non-major bugs taking an arbitrary amount of time to be dealt with, etc. Big teams and skilled developers love it...
I'm told the engine is a mess, with missing features, strange design decisions, non-major bugs taking an arbitrary amount of time to be dealt with, etc. Big teams and skilled developers love it because it's source available and they can make all the changes they want/need and fix any bugs on their own if they have to, so they're not reliant on Epic (or anyone else).
This, of course, follows in the footsteps of another ex-EA executive (John Riccitiello) who caused Unity significant leverage in the game engine market when the engine announced plans to retroactively charge Unity developers a fee every time someone installs a game running the Unity engine.
That remains the single worst decision I've seen in any industry. I was genuinely stunned at how every single part of that announcement and decision was just so damn awful and blatantly fueled by greed, to the point of raising genuine concerns about whether parts of it were even legal. Their initial responses doubling down on the possibility of developers being charged a fee for pirated copies of their games just made it worse.
Unity has a lot of work to do to restore trust among developers, given their attempt at enacting retroactive fees made any game ever developed with the Unity engine a potential liability because who knows what other demands Unity might try to enforce? And hiring someone from EA, which has been ridiculed among the gaming community for its greed for years... Well, doesn't do much for me on the surface. I guess we'll have to wait and see how he handles things.
I think that crown still belongs to Ford with the Pinto memo in the '70s.
How do these horrible executives keep getting amazing positions
Given the company's antics I assume he'll be tasked by the board with squeezing the ecosystem for revenue in the short to medium term. It's not primarily about building the best future of the technology. Not an enviable position for anyone who values the game developers and players more than shareholder value. He sounds like a good fit.
Yeah, they're in their enshittification phase. The devs they managed to swindle back after their last fuck up probably should reconsider if possible since the future seems bleak.
Connections, networking, loads of disposable cash to do these things with, name recognition... there's a lot.
The most important factor I think would be the simple fact that it's us who think they're horrible. Not companies, and not shareholders.
Yup. The CEO isn't guiltless nor powerless per se, but ultimately their decisions are based on the board managing the company, and what they want out of it.
And if we're being frank: it feels like loyalty is dead even in the C class level. Boards are looking for constant growth and jumping ship the moment they think they hit a peak. There's no skin in the game these days for them, just a matter of timing when and how much of their stock they can push out without disrupting the market.
I spent a lot of time learning Unity and had two projects that I started to believe I might one day might actually release, then all that bs @EnglishMobster referenced went down and I realised I definitely didn’t want to be hitched to such a capricious company.
I switched to Unreal Engine, but I’ve found it a much more uphill learning process and struggled to troubleshoot let alone make progress. I haven’t forgiven Unity and at this point in time it doesn’t feel like I’m going to get that motivation back any time soon.
You probably have, but have you considered Godot?
I heard it was limited in 3D, but I’m not getting anywhere with UE, maybe I will give it a shot.
I'm not a game dev but I keep up with Godot developments and the somewhat recent 4.0 release has been a leap forward, especially in the 3D space, so depending on when you made the decision to switch to UE, it's probably worth trying out Godot.
Thanks for the prod, I’ll check it out
I bounced off both UE and Unity back in the day but have made lots of progress in Godot very quickly when I started working with it in January this year.
It definitely has the best on-ramp of any of the game engines. 3D is surpassingly competent at this point, you’ll eventually run into things you have to do yourself that are included in other engines but because it doesn’t have every conceivable feature built in it’s really easy to understand everything that is there. (And don’t have to download 100GBs of features you don’t need)
They’re on a 4ish month release cycle so new stuff is coming in at a steady pace and being an open source project you can see everything that is going on and even contribute yourself or just join in on the discussions of where the engine should go next.
I’ve completed a tutorial and had a go at importing some of my own assets, seems really promising so far and im going to continue with it. Thanks for helpful nudge.
I find Epic to be infinitely worse than Unity as a company and how predatory they are. I'm not sure if you are doing yourserlf a favor if you don't like Unity's business model
While I dislike Epic's anti-competitive behavior pushing the Epic Store, I won't ignore the reality that UE is a genuinely good product that they support well and is fairly priced. I attribute it in part due to the fact that game engines are a competitive market in a way that Fortnite Marketplace is not.
Are you talking about the consumer facing side or developers? Isn't it just a flat percentage of sales?
Knee-jerk reaction to seeing "Epic," I reckon. A lot of people have deep moral objections to their storefront and exclusivity deals, and how they blatantly just bought a userbase by giving away games.
I think it's probably a good thing that someone is at least attempting to give Steam a run for their money, even though I love Steam and Valve and have had good experiences with them. I've also got a couple hundred games on my Epic account that I like to periodically survey like a greedy dragon and never install, so maybe I'm biased.
Partially, although my reaction against using Unreal comes from the fact that Tencent has a 40% stake in Epic, and I dont want a portion of my games' income going to them specifically for many reasons.
As a company, Tencent is worse than Unity, by far. I don't get why people jump ship to Unreal if their reason is they don't like the way the company is run.
Now, before you get the wrong idea, I'm not a Unity defender, I just think shady corps are on both sides.
Use the right tool for the job, and if you have objections to the way a company does business, research the way its competitor does business and who benefits financially if you find success with them instead.
My problem with how Unity is run isn't related to who profits, but more that they've made it so every game ever made by their engine is a potential liability since they're willing to try to apply new terms to game that predate those terms. When I read about their retroactive fees announcement, the feeling I got was like claustrophobia. All I could think about was devs suddenly getting charged fees 5 years after quitting game dev with little warning or notice.
The fact that they would even try to pull that just eradicated any trust in Unity, because who knows what else they'll try to do?
I feel similar to you. But trusting corps blindly isn't a good thing to do. And that includes alternatives to Unity.
Could you use some examples to demonstrate your point because as is, it's just something I should take your word for? You say Epic is predatory but I'm not understanding how? Sounds like you have an axe to grind on the consumer side, which is whatever to me. And now Tencent's ownership stake is the reason it's bad? Why is it so bad to choose Unreal over Unity?
If it's because you don't want to support Epic because of how they choose to run their store -- fine. Or because Tencent is Chinese -- fine. But just say that.
To be clear, I don't care that Tencent is Chinese owned, I care about the influence of the CCP on them. What I care about is that they own a large stake in many game companies.
I do not want my games making money for them, and of course, to be balanced, I don't want want my games making money for (former) EA execs either.
So many of the replies to what I said so far are accusing me of having some sort of hidden motives or unfounded bias. But it really is simple. I don't want to be controlled by a massive corporation.
And while I understood I haven't given very many reasons besides that why others should stay away, my point is the same:
If you don't like the business practices of Unity, you shouldn't be jumping ship to Unreal just because it's a major competitor. You should research the company first. Figure out if it's really the ecosystem you want to be a part of.
If the benefits of switching outweigh the costs/risks, then fine, switch. But don't get blindly tossed from one out of touch corporation to another thinking things will improve.
And that's fine, I just wished you were clear since you used a pretty loaded word "predatory" when that doesn't seem to be your issue at all. It's like you were hiding your true motives that don't actually have that much to do with the issue at hand.
I'm also pretty sure folks are aware that consumers don't like Epic but are you now saying you're boycotting Unreal Engine games or what?
I don't recall saying I'm boycotting anything.
I'm saying that switching game engines as a reaction to what Unity has done is fine, but jumping to Unreal without research on Epic games and how they operate isn't doing anyone favors.
Neither company should be trusted to benefit the developer and both stand to gain if you do well. So the question comes down to whether a migration of game devs to Unreal benefits us in the end if we give Epic more control of the game developer market.
From where I'm looking, it just seems like you initially were just throwing shade in their direction. Granted, I don't either always think my points through if I'm in a rush or just lazy so no hard feelings.
At the end of the day, Sweeny still has final say, and Sweeny has a good history with devlopers in the community for decades. This can be easy to forget when all his consumer facing PR these days comes from the store and Fortnite. But the way UE has been managed, the grants being given the games and tools, and the general quality of games released reassures devs that they can get their game out.
And if we're being cynical: what else is there to really trust if you're a) making a 3d game and b) aren't an engine dev ready to dig in deep when (not if) something in an the engine goes awry?
The most mature-ish alternative that is still fully open source is probably Open 3d Engine, a fork of a fork of CryEngine. But documentation is minimal and I can find a grand total of one game announced last month. You'll truly be in the dark unless you have some very passionate community members in some discord willing to help you troubleshoot.
I've also heard really good things about Flax, if you want to give up the Open Source aspect (it's source readable, like Unreal) for better official support. It's royalty model is lower than Ue though (4% when exceeding 250k revenue, instead of 5% exceeding 1M)
I'm told the engine is a mess, with missing features, strange design decisions, non-major bugs taking an arbitrary amount of time to be dealt with, etc. Big teams and skilled developers love it because it's source available and they can make all the changes they want/need and fix any bugs on their own if they have to, so they're not reliant on Epic (or anyone else).
Have you had a worse experience with Unity?