It seems obvious that, like everything else, "sex parties are just another microcosm of the lonely, confusing world we live in", as the author notices. I've seen a few videos on the swing...
Exemplary
It seems obvious that, like everything else, "sex parties are just another microcosm of the lonely, confusing world we live in", as the author notices.
I've seen a few videos on the swing community, and they seem to have a lot more explicit rules of behavior than traditional monogamics. It's not that they have more rules, but the ones they have must be more explicit and rigid. Otherwise, bad behavior will ensue.
That is also something I learned from friends' open relationships, they usually have clearly stated guidelines that must be followed. While monogamic's rely way more on implicit expectations that are learned from their parents and society.
It seems to me that, once you remove yourself from the norm, a whole bunch of shared expectations is implicitly removed, and there must be actual work into constructing norms that reform or reinstate, in some way, some essential parameters of society.
When such groups fail to select, educate, and police their members, abusers can take advantage of an apparent "moral vacuum" to manipulate their victims into believing that the abuse is acceptable in that group and that resisting the abuse is contrary to their norms.
The interesting thing to me about this is that these shared implicit expectation more often than not are also the root of a lot of problems in monogamist relationships. Mainly because they are...
That is also something I learned from friends' open relationships, they usually have clearly stated guidelines that must be followed. 'While monogamic's rely way more on implicit expectations that are learned from their parents and society.
The interesting thing to me about this is that these shared implicit expectation more often than not are also the root of a lot of problems in monogamist relationships. Mainly because they are thought to be implicit and well known when in reality we have very different interpretations of what this entails and in the process fail to communicate this to our partner.
That is true. Implicit expectations can diverge greatly. It is in the best interest of any couple to be as explicit as possible. However, there are advantages to the traditional model as well....
The interesting thing to me about this is that these shared implicit expectation more often than not are also the root of a lot of problems in monogamist relationships.
That is true. Implicit expectations can diverge greatly. It is in the best interest of any couple to be as explicit as possible. However, there are advantages to the traditional model as well. Ultimately, what is best for each couple will depend on their values, circumstances, personality, desires, and emotional needs.
Ehhh... I'm not so sure about that. Most of the guidelines we're talking about have to do with what is and isn't fair game with regard to outside romantic and sexual relationships. It's a lot...
Ehhh... I'm not so sure about that. Most of the guidelines we're talking about have to do with what is and isn't fair game with regard to outside romantic and sexual relationships. It's a lot easier in monogamous relationships because that rule is pretty clear, even if it is implicit: Romantic and sexual relationship with people other than your partner are immoral and count as cheating. The "grey areas" and "blurred lines" that people talk about are nearly always just cover for things that people know are wrong.
"Baby, I didn't know that you thought kissing was cheating" is a pretty shitty excuse that basically no one buys. Especially when most people in monogamous relationships would be pissed if it the roles were reversed if it happened to them.
Sometimes people just break the rules, whether they're implicit or explicit. From personal, anecdotal experience, I've seen it happen just as often with poly relationships as monogamous ones.
No one is ever as creative as when they're looking for a justification to fuck someone. Monogamous or not, given enough time (and, most importantly, given enough hornyness), we can convince...
No one is ever as creative as when they're looking for a justification to fuck someone. Monogamous or not, given enough time (and, most importantly, given enough hornyness), we can convince ourselves that cheating is not only a great idea that won't harm anyone, but also that doing the deed is instrumental to the future of humankind.
In that regard, the main difference between monogamous and non-monogamous will be the contents of the rationalization. I'm not faithful because the rules are simple, I'm faithful because I love and respect my partner. Additionally, I have seen the path of destruction cheating leaves behind, and want no part of it.
Most humans can play Dungeons & Dragons, I'm sure they can follow and comprehend the much simpler rules of a non-monogamous relationship as well.
The personal and anecdotal feelings coming from your response are fair and understandable. That's a pretty simple and non nuanced example that doesn't really cover what I'm referring too. Actually...
The personal and anecdotal feelings coming from your response are fair and understandable.
"Baby, I didn't know that you thought kissing was cheating" is a pretty shitty excuse that basically no one buys. Especially when most people in monogamous relationships would be pissed if it the roles were reversed if it happened to them.
That's a pretty simple and non nuanced example that doesn't really cover what I'm referring too. Actually not everybody are out to fuck everyone and the blurred lines are indeed real because we rarely start out a relationship knowing these things mainly because it's hard to talk about or we simply don't know them yet. Also these "rules" are dynamic and a lot of people either don't realize that or in some cases wont even acknowledge that. All I'm saying is that (healthy) poly relationship are hard pressed to have these conversations from the get go and there's a lot to be learned from that in monogamous relationships. Not that one way is easier than the other. Just look at the divorce rate in the western world - it's not just because people want to break the rules, play ignorant and fuck around. That's a tired old argument we need to move past.
I'm not experienced in this area, but I think that within our culture marriage is orchestrated incorrectly if you're optimizing for divorce rates. There should be more norms about prerequisite...
I'm not experienced in this area, but I think that within our culture marriage is orchestrated incorrectly if you're optimizing for divorce rates. There should be more norms about prerequisite labor to evaluate preparedness for marriage. Plenty of people do this - raising a puppy together for example. But I would expect most of the broken marriages come from those who padded their dating and engagement time with entertainment.
There are numerous ways to evaluate a partner's values, goals, psychology, compatibility, etc. With all due respect, raising a puppy is easy, and many otherwise abusive individuals have pets they...
There are numerous ways to evaluate a partner's values, goals, psychology, compatibility, etc. With all due respect, raising a puppy is easy, and many otherwise abusive individuals have pets they care for and love.
The reality is, most people are okay, and reasonably suitable for marriage. But relationships are difficult, unanticipated challenges will arise and not all couples will overcome them. There are lots of things you cannot predict. People are not wrong, they're just wrong for each other in a particular circumstance.
I find it interesting that the author went into these sex parties with such a positive image to begin with. Especially since she's female; I've literally never heard from any woman any good thing...
I find it interesting that the author went into these sex parties with such a positive image to begin with. Especially since she's female; I've literally never heard from any woman any good thing about sex parties or clubs. Even those I have heard talk positively about swinging have never said good things about swinging parties.
More than anything I'm just curious about the people she talked to that would give her those rosy expectations; I kind of wish that she could get one of them to write a follow-up to explain what they get out of it that makes it worth the risks to them. This is one of those uniquely female experiences that as a gay male I don't get much of a chance to experience.
My personal context: I'm a gay POC who participates in a lot of men-only sexual-social spaces, which are presumably very different from mixed-gender ones but also share some similarities (unwanted...
Exemplary
My personal context: I'm a gay POC who participates in a lot of men-only sexual-social spaces, which are presumably very different from mixed-gender ones but also share some similarities (unwanted attention and touch, assault, drug use, etc).
It's a strange world that requires an utmost degree of self-confidence. Because the rules of the normal adult world are suspended partially. Everyone is constantly pushing on boundaries and being pushed back on. And it's very much up to the individual to continually set, communicate, and enforce their own boundaries — as well as tolerate some innocuous violations. One cannot expect society or an institution to enforce gray rules for them.
Indeed a certain level of liberal consent is given by entering the space. Personally, I abide by rules of consent for touching someone's genitals and mine being touched. But I also expect there to be frequent incursions on my boundaries: some are to be tolerated, others are to be pushed back against.
Everyone is ogling — how can you not when everyone is nude? — and catcalling (and dog whistling?). And a light flirty touch on the butt, back, leg, or cheek is to be expected and tolerated. But unwanted persistent pursuit is not tolerated, and rape is certainly not either.
Some may ask, why bother with these indignities?
I find them to be quite intimate. Sometimes it's nice to be freed from the stiffness and artificiality of the adult human world and let our inner primal animals play for a moment. There isn't any beating around the bush. No chitchat about politics or vacations. People often let out their raw thoughts and emotions. We can shed our carefully-crafted outside identities for a few hours.
I find it very surprising and extreme that one of the first things she'd try after a long-term monogamous relationship is a sex party. People normally try picking up guys/girls at bars or on an...
The author explicitly mentions her desire to get in touch with her sexuality in a carefree manner, presumedly to shed the shackles of typical monogamous sexual mores and yet when those conventional boundaries are pushed she is shocked?
I find it very surprising and extreme that one of the first things she'd try after a long-term monogamous relationship is a sex party. People normally try picking up guys/girls at bars or on an app (Tinder, Grindr, Feeld, etc), dip their toes into a few kinks or fetishes, and then maybe move onto group play (threesomes).
Sex/kink parties are perhaps the final level.
They're most certainly, uh, not beginner-friendly.
My read of the article was that she expected ogling and heckling to come with the territory to some extent, but her concerns regarding attacks were in line with behaviors that would be considered...
My read of the article was that she expected ogling and heckling to come with the territory to some extent, but her concerns regarding attacks were in line with behaviors that would be considered attacks even in a hyper-sexual environment (i.e. the assault she mentions at the beginning of the story, as well as the individual who was impersonating a staff member as a pretense for molestation).
That isn't my scene at all, so I can only speak as an outsider, but my understanding of it via people that I know is that there is still navigation of consent even in those spaces. Just because everyone is there with the common goal of engaging in some sort of sexual activity doesn't mean that they necessarily consent to any sexual activity with anyone. Would straight guys at a party like that be comfortable with a gay guy like me automatically assuming they consented to my advances or touch? Definitely not. It would be predatory of me to do anything to them without their affirmation first, and it sounds like that was what she experienced.
She does refer to the sex club's marketing material in passing, and not to any friends that she didn't make at the parties, so it's entirely possible her initial perspective was entirely shaped by...
She does refer to the sex club's marketing material in passing, and not to any friends that she didn't make at the parties, so it's entirely possible her initial perspective was entirely shaped by the advertising.
It seems obvious that, like everything else, "sex parties are just another microcosm of the lonely, confusing world we live in", as the author notices.
I've seen a few videos on the swing community, and they seem to have a lot more explicit rules of behavior than traditional monogamics. It's not that they have more rules, but the ones they have must be more explicit and rigid. Otherwise, bad behavior will ensue.
That is also something I learned from friends' open relationships, they usually have clearly stated guidelines that must be followed. While monogamic's rely way more on implicit expectations that are learned from their parents and society.
It seems to me that, once you remove yourself from the norm, a whole bunch of shared expectations is implicitly removed, and there must be actual work into constructing norms that reform or reinstate, in some way, some essential parameters of society.
When such groups fail to select, educate, and police their members, abusers can take advantage of an apparent "moral vacuum" to manipulate their victims into believing that the abuse is acceptable in that group and that resisting the abuse is contrary to their norms.
The interesting thing to me about this is that these shared implicit expectation more often than not are also the root of a lot of problems in monogamist relationships. Mainly because they are thought to be implicit and well known when in reality we have very different interpretations of what this entails and in the process fail to communicate this to our partner.
That is true. Implicit expectations can diverge greatly. It is in the best interest of any couple to be as explicit as possible. However, there are advantages to the traditional model as well. Ultimately, what is best for each couple will depend on their values, circumstances, personality, desires, and emotional needs.
Ehhh... I'm not so sure about that. Most of the guidelines we're talking about have to do with what is and isn't fair game with regard to outside romantic and sexual relationships. It's a lot easier in monogamous relationships because that rule is pretty clear, even if it is implicit: Romantic and sexual relationship with people other than your partner are immoral and count as cheating. The "grey areas" and "blurred lines" that people talk about are nearly always just cover for things that people know are wrong.
"Baby, I didn't know that you thought kissing was cheating" is a pretty shitty excuse that basically no one buys. Especially when most people in monogamous relationships would be pissed if it the roles were reversed if it happened to them.
Sometimes people just break the rules, whether they're implicit or explicit. From personal, anecdotal experience, I've seen it happen just as often with poly relationships as monogamous ones.
No one is ever as creative as when they're looking for a justification to fuck someone. Monogamous or not, given enough time (and, most importantly, given enough hornyness), we can convince ourselves that cheating is not only a great idea that won't harm anyone, but also that doing the deed is instrumental to the future of humankind.
In that regard, the main difference between monogamous and non-monogamous will be the contents of the rationalization. I'm not faithful because the rules are simple, I'm faithful because I love and respect my partner. Additionally, I have seen the path of destruction cheating leaves behind, and want no part of it.
Most humans can play Dungeons & Dragons, I'm sure they can follow and comprehend the much simpler rules of a non-monogamous relationship as well.
The personal and anecdotal feelings coming from your response are fair and understandable.
That's a pretty simple and non nuanced example that doesn't really cover what I'm referring too. Actually not everybody are out to fuck everyone and the blurred lines are indeed real because we rarely start out a relationship knowing these things mainly because it's hard to talk about or we simply don't know them yet. Also these "rules" are dynamic and a lot of people either don't realize that or in some cases wont even acknowledge that. All I'm saying is that (healthy) poly relationship are hard pressed to have these conversations from the get go and there's a lot to be learned from that in monogamous relationships. Not that one way is easier than the other. Just look at the divorce rate in the western world - it's not just because people want to break the rules, play ignorant and fuck around. That's a tired old argument we need to move past.
I'm not experienced in this area, but I think that within our culture marriage is orchestrated incorrectly if you're optimizing for divorce rates. There should be more norms about prerequisite labor to evaluate preparedness for marriage. Plenty of people do this - raising a puppy together for example. But I would expect most of the broken marriages come from those who padded their dating and engagement time with entertainment.
There are numerous ways to evaluate a partner's values, goals, psychology, compatibility, etc. With all due respect, raising a puppy is easy, and many otherwise abusive individuals have pets they care for and love.
The reality is, most people are okay, and reasonably suitable for marriage. But relationships are difficult, unanticipated challenges will arise and not all couples will overcome them. There are lots of things you cannot predict. People are not wrong, they're just wrong for each other in a particular circumstance.
I find it interesting that the author went into these sex parties with such a positive image to begin with. Especially since she's female; I've literally never heard from any woman any good thing about sex parties or clubs. Even those I have heard talk positively about swinging have never said good things about swinging parties.
More than anything I'm just curious about the people she talked to that would give her those rosy expectations; I kind of wish that she could get one of them to write a follow-up to explain what they get out of it that makes it worth the risks to them. This is one of those uniquely female experiences that as a gay male I don't get much of a chance to experience.
My personal context: I'm a gay POC who participates in a lot of men-only sexual-social spaces, which are presumably very different from mixed-gender ones but also share some similarities (unwanted attention and touch, assault, drug use, etc).
It's a strange world that requires an utmost degree of self-confidence. Because the rules of the normal adult world are suspended partially. Everyone is constantly pushing on boundaries and being pushed back on. And it's very much up to the individual to continually set, communicate, and enforce their own boundaries — as well as tolerate some innocuous violations. One cannot expect society or an institution to enforce gray rules for them.
Indeed a certain level of liberal consent is given by entering the space. Personally, I abide by rules of consent for touching someone's genitals and mine being touched. But I also expect there to be frequent incursions on my boundaries: some are to be tolerated, others are to be pushed back against.
Everyone is ogling — how can you not when everyone is nude? — and catcalling (and dog whistling?). And a light flirty touch on the butt, back, leg, or cheek is to be expected and tolerated. But unwanted persistent pursuit is not tolerated, and rape is certainly not either.
Some may ask, why bother with these indignities?
I find them to be quite intimate. Sometimes it's nice to be freed from the stiffness and artificiality of the adult human world and let our inner primal animals play for a moment. There isn't any beating around the bush. No chitchat about politics or vacations. People often let out their raw thoughts and emotions. We can shed our carefully-crafted outside identities for a few hours.
I find it very surprising and extreme that one of the first things she'd try after a long-term monogamous relationship is a sex party. People normally try picking up guys/girls at bars or on an app (Tinder, Grindr, Feeld, etc), dip their toes into a few kinks or fetishes, and then maybe move onto group play (threesomes).
Sex/kink parties are perhaps the final level.
They're most certainly, uh, not beginner-friendly.
My read of the article was that she expected ogling and heckling to come with the territory to some extent, but her concerns regarding attacks were in line with behaviors that would be considered attacks even in a hyper-sexual environment (i.e. the assault she mentions at the beginning of the story, as well as the individual who was impersonating a staff member as a pretense for molestation).
That isn't my scene at all, so I can only speak as an outsider, but my understanding of it via people that I know is that there is still navigation of consent even in those spaces. Just because everyone is there with the common goal of engaging in some sort of sexual activity doesn't mean that they necessarily consent to any sexual activity with anyone. Would straight guys at a party like that be comfortable with a gay guy like me automatically assuming they consented to my advances or touch? Definitely not. It would be predatory of me to do anything to them without their affirmation first, and it sounds like that was what she experienced.
She does refer to the sex club's marketing material in passing, and not to any friends that she didn't make at the parties, so it's entirely possible her initial perspective was entirely shaped by the advertising.