ibis's recent activity

  1. Comment on What's the education system like in your country? in ~talk

    ibis
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    In Australia schools are separated into primary school and high school. Sometimes they are at the same campus, but often the primary school is small and local, while the high school is bigger and...

    In Australia schools are separated into primary school and high school. Sometimes they are at the same campus, but often the primary school is small and local, while the high school is bigger and more regional.

    Primary school has grades kinder + 1-6 (in some states kinder is separate though), high school is 7-12.

    At the end of year 10 you can leave school to go and learn a trade, but less and less students are doing that. In years 11 and 12 you get to choose what classes you take.

    The school funding system is separated into public (cheap for parents, funded mostly by the state) and private (parents pay big fees - includes religious schools). The government gives as much or more funding to private schools compared to public. Why? You tell me - it makes no sense. The result is that public schools have significantly worse facilities (although academically they don’t really do that bad).

    5 votes
  2. Comment on Amanda Palmer is getting dragged on Twitter - is this cancel culture? in ~talk

    ibis
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    Ok I think I have a much better idea of your point now, and I see that I misinterpreted your issues with the linked tweet thread. I thought you meant verbal abuse, but I think you are more...

    Ok I think I have a much better idea of your point now, and I see that I misinterpreted your issues with the linked tweet thread. I thought you meant verbal abuse, but I think you are more concerned about emotional abuse.

    The thing is, a pillar of emotion abuse is power. The abuser simply must hold some kind of power over their victim for their tactics to have any effect. Hypothetically, I could easily cover all the abuse tactics you raised in one rant about Donald Trump. Does that mean I'm abusing him? maybe verbally, but not emotionally. If Donald Trump was my friend, roommate, or romantic partner (ew) then yeah, I guess it means my rant could be emotional abuse. But the context is so different, I don't think it's a useful thought exercise!

    We discuss the errors that influential people make in the context of the harm it causes, because they wield the power to cause harm. Donald Trump might have good qualities as well - but that isn't relevant to me if he is causing me harm. I don't really care very much about Donald Trump the human being. I care about Donald Trump the president and media personality.

    I don't want to make a hard judgement regarding the thread you linked, but I do feel sympathetic to the poster. I don't think they care about Natalie the human being (although they do make some concessions on that topic). I think that they are angry at Natalie the social media influencer, and how she is using her social capital to harm their community. I understand Natalie's position that it is hard to be held up to such a high standard, especially since she didn't ever necessarily consider herself as 'leftist' in the first place. But that doesn't change the fact that now she has power, she will face more scrutiny, because her decisions have a real impact on the cultural spaces she inhabits.

    Regarding the outing of someone against their will, I think the main critique of Natalie is that she ignored it completely. She was specifically addressing the controversy regarding Buck Angel - she began by spending a long time talking about his good points, and then she characterised his problematic points as purely ideological. She did not bring up the issue of him outing someone against their will at all. To me, it seems like Natalie used her platform and her social capital to mis-characterise the controversy, and I can completely understand why someone with a smaller platform would find that extremely frustrating.

    4 votes
  3. Comment on Amanda Palmer is getting dragged on Twitter - is this cancel culture? in ~talk

    ibis
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    I read through some of the twitter thread you linked. I'm an outsider when it comes to the specific tiff that's going on here, so I can't comment on if the poster's argument is accurate/justified...

    I came across this tweet thread (article version -- thanks @tomf!). It was very well received on Twitter with 1.1K retweets, 2.5K likes, and plenty of supportive responses thanking the author for what they said.

    I bring up this particular example because it seems to me to be emblematic of the friction embedded within the larger idea of "cancel culture." Whether or not this particular person's complaints are valid, their communication of them is undeniably abusive. In reading through it, almost every one of my abuser-sense red flags went up. If I witnessed anyone act this way to someone else in real life, I would immediately encourage that individual to cut all ties and get out immediately, for their own safety. It's that bad.

    ...Is this valid discourse or not?

    I read through some of the twitter thread you linked. I'm an outsider when it comes to the specific tiff that's going on here, so I can't comment on if the poster's argument is accurate/justified or not.

    But in regards to 'abusive' discourse, I think some situations warrant anger, and that people should not be dismissed for displaying emotion when making an argument (even if that anger sounds abusive). Some of the content in the tweets include the outing of someone against their will - a situation that could have resulted in violence and death. Anger is a human response to injustice like that. The poster swears a lot, but otherwise makes a coherent argument that is based on concrete events/quotes that can be fact checked.

    Of course, there are plenty of situations where anger is not justified as well. But to be honest, I don't think swearing makes bigotry worse. If anything, I am more frustrated by bigotry when it is presented clinically with a performance of being 'reasonable' or 'factual'.

    I specifically chose the Palmer situation as an example because it is a personal tiff between two people. The only people who really should be angry about it is the journalist who has been harassed, and maybe people who might have been in a similar situation or who feel an emotional connection to the journalist. Anyone else who is getting abusive over this is probably isn't justified.

    1 vote
  4. Comment on Amanda Palmer is getting dragged on Twitter - is this cancel culture? in ~talk

    ibis
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    Yep I absolutely agree that people have every right to abandon artists or celebrities for any reason. After thinking about it and reading the responses to this thread, I think you and other...

    Yep I absolutely agree that people have every right to abandon artists or celebrities for any reason.

    After thinking about it and reading the responses to this thread, I think you and other posters are right in that my issues regarding the situation don't really have anything to do with 'cancel culture'. I think she has been cancelled to some degree, but it isn't undeserved.

    Idk if there is a catchy name for what I don't like about this situation. Basically when social media emboldens people to be way meaner then the situation warrants, and the scale of social media means that that meanness is amplified exponentially. Because the target of the harassment did genuinely do something bad, everyone gets to feel morally righteous about piling onto them.

    When the issue is about misogyny or racism (etc.) I can at least sympathise with posters, because their anger is valid, even if making a single person the scape goat for society's bigotry maybe isn't fair. I feel like the wider conversation that is prompted by these kinds of twitter storms is important, and it's a conversation we really need to have to move forward.

    But regarding Amanda Palmer, I mostly feel like her mistakes were on a personal level, and most people are taking the opportunity to harass her because she is generally kind of lame. She has done just enough wrong that twitter can feel morally righteous about piling onto a woman.

    4 votes
  5. Comment on Amanda Palmer is getting dragged on Twitter - is this cancel culture? in ~talk

    ibis
    (edited )
    Link Parent
    Amanda Palmer wrote a twitter thread about how her and her tour/album was being ignored by the media, and how she rose up against them by hiring her own journalist to come on tour with her and...

    Amanda Palmer wrote a twitter thread about how her and her tour/album was being ignored by the media, and how she rose up against them by hiring her own journalist to come on tour with her and write a long form article about it. As part of this narrative, she alluded to a particular journalist at the guardian who has her blocked on twitter, and who apparently made disparaging comments about her in an article. She implied that the guardian is not covering her because this one particular journalist just doesn't like her.

    In a separate thread, the journalist in question provided her version of events. She claims that Amanda Palmer has been harassing her over the last month - eg. trying to meet with her, getting her hired journalist to question her, sending her invites, tweeting to her 1m fans about her. Since I posted the thread, this interview with Palmer came out that frankly makes her sound insane
    pg1: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EKEuH4yX0AEezy7?format=jpg&name=large
    pg2: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EKEuH4JXkAk2NDS?format=jpg&name=large

    For some context, Palmer got a lot of hate on twitter a few years ago because she was paying her supporting musicians with 'hugs and beer' after crowd funding loads of money to tour and record. Apparently this is why the journalist first had a spat with Palmer years ago and blocked her.

    So Twitter has turned against Palmer for behaving badly, but mostly, I think, for generally being kind of lame.

    5 votes
  6. Comment on Amanda Palmer is getting dragged on Twitter - is this cancel culture? in ~talk

    ibis
    (edited )
    Link Parent
    edit: I've changed my mind about this. see here I disagree, I think the term “cancelled” was originally (semi-jokingly) used to describe this exact situation, and that is where the term “cancel-...

    edit: I've changed my mind about this. see here

    I disagree, I think the term “cancelled” was originally (semi-jokingly) used to describe this exact situation, and that is where the term “cancel- culture” originally came from.

    Maybe all the discourse has muddied the meaning we attach to the word, but back in the day, “cancelling” someone on social media just meant that they were no longer liked by the majority. It wasn’t supposed to be taken literally it was a joke.

    1 vote
  7. Comment on Amanda Palmer is getting dragged on Twitter - is this cancel culture? in ~talk

    ibis
    (edited )
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    I generally agree with your points, but I have absolutely seen people refer to this kind of behaviour as ‘cancel culture’. Like everything else, it is a dynamic term that people tend to bend to...

    I generally agree with your points, but I have absolutely seen people refer to this kind of behaviour as ‘cancel culture’. Like everything else, it is a dynamic term that people tend to bend to mean what they want it to mean.

    I’m usually not very concerned about it when people hand-wring about the poor bigots who are being held accountable for their actions. But people who position themselves as the “sensible center” insist that mob justice on Twitter is a problem. I am genuinely on the fence about agreeing with them (in certain situations).

    I generally agree that, in perspective, people being mean to a semi-celebrity on twitter isn’t a big deal and she’ll no doubt be fine. But I do find it kind of uncomfortable the way that everyone suddenly decides she is fair game for harassment. This is partly because I don’t see her as having any real power, but maybe I’m underestimating the social capital she still has.

    I honestly don’t know if I should feel sorry for her as a largely “has been” artist struggling and crowd funding to stay relevant, or disparage her as a famous person married to another famous person who is going after journalists.

    I also somewhat disagree that she hasn’t all together been “cancelled”. A lot of what she does is made possible by crowd funding, and so attacks to her reputation are likely to impact her (I’ve seen people say that they are patrons and are dropping her). I have no doubt that this incident will, at the very least, quicken the decent of her career. (I don’t necessarily see this as a bad thing, I guess I’m just bickering about semantics).

    People are calling her entitled, and I agree, but reading between the lines, she is also probably right that she is receiving less media support because she was blasted on social media for not paying her band a few years back. Again, I’m not saying she didn’t deserve it, but it sounds like the last time she was “cancelled” it did have a noticeable impact on her career.

    6 votes
  8. Comment on Amanda Palmer is getting dragged on Twitter - is this cancel culture? in ~talk

    ibis
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    I actually agree with you, which is why I labeled her careless rather than malicious. I don’t think she was deliberately trying to harass anyone. But she has a million followers and she was just...

    I actually agree with you, which is why I labeled her careless rather than malicious. I don’t think she was deliberately trying to harass anyone.

    But she has a million followers and she was just specific enough for them to potentially figure out who she was talking about, and imo the journalist did nothing wrong. So that’s why I label Palmer as careless about potentially causing an mob herself.

    3 votes
  9. Comment on Amanda Palmer is getting dragged on Twitter - is this cancel culture? in ~talk

    ibis
    Link Parent
    My impression is that her main goal was to promote her article and paint the self-funded coverage as brave and triumphant rather than pathetic. I think she cast the guardian as villains as a means...

    My impression is that her main goal was to promote her article and paint the self-funded coverage as brave and triumphant rather than pathetic. I think she cast the guardian as villains as a means to an end - a plot device in the narrative she had concocted.

    There’s no doubt in my mind that Palmer was in the wrong. But I’m stuck because I can’t decide if this pile on is punching up or down. I always feel a little uncomfortable when a mob turns on an individual, but I do note that Palmer was pretty careless about potentially causing a mob to harass that journalist so idk, maybe she’s getting what she deserves.

    3 votes
  10. Amanda Palmer is getting dragged on Twitter - is this cancel culture?

    I've seen some debate on here about 'cancel culture', and there is a pretty good example of it happening on Twitter more-or-less now (or I guess it's probably old news in internet-time). Here is...

    I've seen some debate on here about 'cancel culture', and there is a pretty good example of it happening on Twitter more-or-less now (or I guess it's probably old news in internet-time).

    Here is Amanda Palmer's Original thread:
    https://twitter.com/amandapalmer/status/1197525096937771010

    Here is the perspective of the "the guardian's music editor" (not actually the music editor, but she is the woman Amanda Palmer's tweets allude too as the music editor):
    https://twitter.com/laurasnapes/status/1197572693081698310

    (the actual music editor also weighed in https://twitter.com/ben_bt/status/1197568113535070208)

    It's pretty clear that there is an internet pile-on going down. Here is just a few of many examples:
    https://twitter.com/JEHANCOURF/status/1197645652605448193
    https://twitter.com/BrandyLJensen/status/1197660203937914880

    Palmer's husband Neil Gaiman isn't escaping scrutiny either:
    https://twitter.com/harrrithon/status/1197594514564820992
    https://twitter.com/ThosMcStakin/status/1197662487593635840

    Some unrelated anti-Palmer stories cropping up:
    https://twitter.com/bombastic_luv/status/1197765401691742208
    https://twitter.com/TamikaVST/status/1197672824040828928
    https://twitter.com/TamikaVST/status/1197674952591327237

    So my question is: is this the cancel culture everyone is worried about? Is twitter going 'too far'? Or is Amanda Palmer getting what she deserved?

    I'm honestly on the fence. Give me your thoughts.

    12 votes
  11. Comment on Britain's Prince Andrew 'categorically' denies sex claims in ~news

    ibis
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    "If I am forced to give a statement and if I'm advised that it's in my best interest, I will give a statement, because of duty" This man makes no sense. How disconnected from reality is he?

    He appeared to be open to giving a statement under oath, saying in the interview: “If push came to shove and the legal advice was to do so, then I would be duty bound to do so.”

    "If I am forced to give a statement and if I'm advised that it's in my best interest, I will give a statement, because of duty"

    This man makes no sense. How disconnected from reality is he?

    7 votes
  12. Comment on Global Condemnation of 'Appalling' Coup in Bolivia as Military Forces Socialist President Evo Morales to Resign in ~news

    ibis
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    In 2016 Morales held a referendum to change the constitution and remove limits on presidential terms so that he could continue as president. He lost the vote but stayed anyway. I think this result...

    In 2016 Morales held a referendum to change the constitution and remove limits on presidential terms so that he could continue as president. He lost the vote but stayed anyway.

    I think this result was inevitable he should have stepped down years ago.

    5 votes
  13. Comment on What's a piece of media (show/movie/game/album/book/comic/etc.) that you passionately like, but never see anyone else mention? in ~talk

    ibis
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    I’m going to withhold judgement until there are more updates. I don’t think the new writers are as good as hussie is at writing dialogue, but they might have different strengths. How did you feel...

    I’m going to withhold judgement until there are more updates. I don’t think the new writers are as good as hussie is at writing dialogue, but they might have different strengths.

    How did you feel about the epilogues?

    1 vote
  14. Comment on What's a piece of media (show/movie/game/album/book/comic/etc.) that you passionately like, but never see anyone else mention? in ~talk

    ibis
    (edited )
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    Let me tell you about homestuck. (this is full of spoilers, but to be fair the comic frequently spoils itself so I don't think it's a big deal. I've left out all the surprising twists.) When it's...

    Let me tell you about homestuck.

    (this is full of spoilers, but to be fair the comic frequently spoils itself so I don't think it's a big deal. I've left out all the surprising twists.)

    When it's brought up, it's usually to discuss the cult internet fandom that it had around 2012, rather than the webcomic itself. I think it isn't discussed because it's such a difficult thing to try and quantify. It is broad, there are around 20 main characters which represent four different species, it spans multiple genres while not truly representing any of them, it's told in many different formats and mediums, and the story-line encompasses the creation and destruction of at least 4 universes (or more accurately 2 iterations of 2 universes).

    It is an absurd and ambitious comic, that toys with the very nature of storytelling. I have never seen anything else like it.
    Most of it is told in the format of long chat-logs between characters. So you experience most of the events second hand as a group of very entertaining characters talk to each other about what is going on. For the first big chunk of the comic, one group of characters (the trolls) are temporally disconnected from the main cast, and so the conversations they have are not linear. The form of time travel (/time talk?) used in the comic is paradoxical stable time loops. From the very beginning, the main kids are being abused by the trolls for bringing about a catastrophe that they haven't caused yet (but the trolls are already suffering the consequences of). But in contacting the kids, the trolls inadvertently help bring about the catastrophe in the first place.
    If anyone tries to change events so they don't bring about a future that has already, paradoxically, happened, they wind up in a doomed timeline.

    All of this allows for the story line, characters and relationships to be developed non-linearly and iteratively (the characters are also modular, as in-universe mechanics allow for separate characters to be fused together). Nothing makes sense until eventually all the disjointed timelines sync up and we see all the completed time loops. Of course, all these time mechanics based around inevitability raises the question of - who is controlling the timeline?

    I won't go into too much detail here, but basically the villain's power is the ability to control the narrative of the story. As the story progresses, it becomes clear that the characters are trapped by the narrative, and the author of that narrative (who is also a character) is an arsehole. This metaphor does not go to waste as, among many other things, this is a coming-of-age story.

    Anyway, it's definitely worth a read (if you have the spare time). It's not a comic to read with the goal of reaching the end - it is extremely long and the ending actually sucks. But it is worth the time just to experience the way the entire nature of story-telling is experimented with.

    4 votes
  15. Comment on What piece of media had a profound emotional effect on you? in ~talk

    ibis
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    the song From Little Things Big Things Grow By Kev Carmody and Paul Kelly. Idk how popular it is internationally, but here I grew up hearing it as a jingle on adds. The first time I sat down and...
    • the song From Little Things Big Things Grow By Kev Carmody and Paul Kelly. Idk how popular it is internationally, but here I grew up hearing it as a jingle on adds. The first time I sat down and actually listened to the lyrics all the way through I was floored. The story itself was very powerful, and the lesson that the underdog can win definitely spoke to me.

    • I'll hide the name of this movie because I'm going to spoil it:

    spoiler Red Dog

    It's a movie about a dog, and in the end the dog dies (it's not the big Hollywood one). I don't remember much about the movie itself, I'm pretty sure it wasn't that good. But the dog was the same breed and similar colouring to my childhood dog. When it died on screen I was surprised by how strong my reaction was. It was very embarrassing as I was seeing it at the cinema haha.

    3 votes
  16. Comment on Voter fraud detected in Guardian's Australian bird of the year poll in ~misc

  17. Comment on Former NSW Fire chief frustrated at Govt for 'sweeping climate change under the rug' in ~enviro

    ibis
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    A group of former senior fire and emergency service leaders have been trying to meet with the prime minister for months to discuss preparation for worsening disasters caused by climate change. The...

    A group of former senior fire and emergency service leaders have been trying to meet with the prime minister for months to discuss preparation for worsening disasters caused by climate change.

    The recent fires are the exact circumstance they were trying to prepare for in order to prevent loss of life and property.

    The government has ignored their requests to meet, and have instead attacked the integrity of the group.

    4 votes