serafin's recent activity

  7. Comment on Step inside the Circle in ~health.mental

    serafin
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    "virtually all of the 150 murderers they studied over a 25-year period had suffered severe abuse as children. Pincus believes that the only feasible remedy for crime would be the prevention of...

    "virtually all of the 150 murderers they studied over a 25-year period had suffered severe abuse as children. Pincus believes that the only feasible remedy for crime would be the prevention of child abuse."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trauma_model_of_mental_disorders

    1 vote

  10. Comment on I have a massive gripe with reductive "politicization" of mental health in ~health.mental

    serafin
    Link
    I don't see how it does? It merely states in your highlighted section that there is higher risk. No more, no less. It doesn't exclude other potential risk factors from the picture, nor does it say...

    I think one of the other negative things about this argument is that, it denies the possibility that some people face mental illness not mainly as a result of social issues, but as a result of some biological unluck.

    I don't see how it does? It merely states in your highlighted section that there is higher risk. No more, no less. It doesn't exclude other potential risk factors from the picture, nor does it say anything about the distribution of risk.

    7 votes

  11. Comment on "If the role of dysfunctional parenting in psychological disorders was ever fully recognized, the DSM would shrink to the size of a thin pamphlet" in ~health.mental

    serafin
    (edited )
    Link Parent
    That they are associated/linked is a fact. That one is a causation for the other can only ever be a theory, or even weaker, a therapeutic model/assumption to inform treatment. How would you prove,...

    That they are associated/linked is a fact. That one is a causation for the other can only ever be a theory, or even weaker, a therapeutic model/assumption to inform treatment. How would you prove, and how would you disprove such a theory? What is it that you can measure? Anything I can come up with (without thinking too hard about it) would be to play highly unethical games with large amounts of people... I agree that it would be "quackery" in academic contexts to claim causation and not only association, which is why it is unlikely that we will find such a claim there. Outside of academia, and this is my personal "belief", I want to allow people to come up with all kinds of theories and hold all kinds of beliefs. It is interesting to question each other's beliefs and theories, find logical flaws, disagree, but it is a different level to "disprove" a theory, or, even harder, a model.

    On the same level, I can potentially "measure" brain chemistry, physical differences (e.g. relative sizes of brain structure), and then look for signs of inheritance, but at least on a logical level that is addressed by the "trauma model": according to that model, a traumatic experience changes brain chemistry, changes brain structures, influences genetics, and is "transmitted" to children. Inheritance is bigger than DNA, since there is typically a nine month period of exchanges of fluids going on between mother and child, plus all the attempts to measure prenatal environmental impact on children.

    Prenatal: "A growing body of research shows that prenatal stress can have significant effects on pregnancy, maternal health and human development across the lifespan. These effects may occur directly through the influence of prenatal stress-related physiological changes on the developing fetus, or indirectly through the effects of prenatal stress on maternal health and pregnancy outcome which, in turn, affect infant health and development. Animal and human studies suggest that activation of the maternal stress response and resulting changes in endocrine and inflammatory activity play a role in the aetiology of these effects." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5052760/

    Postnatal: "Both babies and their parents may experience a stay in the newborn intensive care unit (NICU) as a traumatic or a ‘toxic stress,’ which can lead to dysregulation of the hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal axis and ultimately to poorly controlled cortisol secretion. Toxic stresses in childhood or adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) are strongly linked to poor health outcomes across the lifespan and trauma-informed care is an approach to caregiving based on the recognition of this relationship." https://www.nature.com/articles/jp2017124 (further interesting studies cited in that article)

  12. Comment on "If the role of dysfunctional parenting in psychological disorders was ever fully recognized, the DSM would shrink to the size of a thin pamphlet" in ~health.mental

    serafin
    (edited )
    Link Parent
    2022 meta study: "Following literature searches, we finally identified 64 published journal articles, including 70 independent studies involving nearly 4 million participants. It was found that...

    2022 meta study: "Following literature searches, we finally identified 64 published journal articles, including 70 independent studies involving nearly 4 million participants. It was found that individuals who experienced any form of ACEs had a 1.68-fold increased vulnerability of ADHD, compared to those without a history of ACEs. [...] Our findings support the hypothesis that ACEs are associated with ADHD to a certain extent, especially for individuals who ever experienced multiple ACEs and females." https://doi.org/10.1016/j.acap.2016.08.013

    "Childhood trauma is linked to ADHD, and vice versa. They share similar symptoms that are often confused and misdiagnosed. Each also amplifies symptom severity in the other. These are just a few reasons why clinicians must increase their understanding of trauma and adopt an informed approach when assessing and treating children for ADHD." https://www.additudemag.com/adhd-and-trauma-overview-signs-symptoms/

    "Opinion piece" by ADHD Foundation UK: "[...] I know that this all sounds very grim and I must stress that these risks will not apply to all children and young people with ADHD. However, it is important to consider that there is a link between ACEs and ADHD supported by the research evidence in that young people with ADHD have a higher prevalence of ACEs overall. Understanding this must surely encourage us to not only ensure that ADHD is supported within every family, through early identification and diagnosis and access for all to appropriate psychoeducative interventions and for improved supports for adults with ADHD but also to consider the broader context in which the child or adult is living and how difficulties and challenges with ADHD can be exacerbated as a result." https://www.adhdfoundation.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Is-there-a-link-between-ADHD-and-ACEs.pdf

    1 vote

  13. Comment on "If the role of dysfunctional parenting in psychological disorders was ever fully recognized, the DSM would shrink to the size of a thin pamphlet" in ~health.mental

    serafin
    (edited )
    Link Parent
    You are correct. I mixed up "personality disorder" and "mental disorder". Which to me are fuzzy categories and rough translations, and may or may not map to the same meaning depending on context...

    You are correct. I mixed up "personality disorder" and "mental disorder". Which to me are fuzzy categories and rough translations, and may or may not map to the same meaning depending on context of use; but they do have a distinct and (somewhat; as far as psychology allows?) well-defined meaning in the context of ICD-11!

    "Mental, behavioural and neurodevelopmental disorders are syndromes characterised by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotional regulation, or behaviour that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes that underlie mental and behavioural functioning. These disturbances are usually associated with distress or impairment in personal, family, social, educational, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. "

    Personality disorders are a subtype of mental disorders in ICD:

    "Personality refers to an individual’s characteristic way of behaving, experiencing life, and of perceiving and interpreting themselves, other people, events, and situations. Personality Disorder is a marked disturbance in personality functioning, which is nearly always associated with considerable personal and social disruption. The central manifestations of Personality Disorder are impairments in functioning of aspects of the self (e.g., identity, self-worth, capacity for self-direction) and/or problems in interpersonal functioning (e.g., developing and maintaining close and mutually satisfying relationships, understanding others’ perspectives, managing conflict in relationships). Impairments in self-functioning and/or interpersonal functioning are manifested in maladaptive (e.g., inflexible or poorly regulated) patterns of cognition, emotional experience, emotional expression, and behaviour."

    https://icd.who.int/browse11/

  14. Comment on "If the role of dysfunctional parenting in psychological disorders was ever fully recognized, the DSM would shrink to the size of a thin pamphlet" in ~health.mental

    serafin
    Link Parent
    Please quote where I, and you put that in bold for a reason, insist that abuse and trauma are the only cause of these issues. I am re-reading my writing, and I do not see how one can read that...

    Please quote where I, and you put that in bold for a reason, insist that abuse and trauma are the only cause of these issues. I am re-reading my writing, and I do not see how one can read that into it even if you wanted to put it in there.

    1 vote

  15. Comment on "If the role of dysfunctional parenting in psychological disorders was ever fully recognized, the DSM would shrink to the size of a thin pamphlet" in ~health.mental

    serafin
    Link Parent
    Let me ask this again: How can anyone know that they do not carry trauma from their experience? I am asking this question honestly, and I tried to play "devil's advocate" or "take the position of...

    Let me ask this again: How can anyone know that they do not carry trauma from their experience? I am asking this question honestly, and I tried to play "devil's advocate" or "take the position of the people mentioned in the top post, as far as I understand it". I am not trying to put anyone into any box. Yes, I am "dismissing" that as simply not logically sound. From where I stand, nobody, not me, not you, not them, can rule out anything like that.

    Yes, of course I am attempting to present the same argument again, in different words, because I did not see anything that addresses my question. I could equally claim they and you are "dismissive" of my question, but I am not claiming such things because I know you and Fae are trying to understand me, the same way I am trying to understand you.

  16. Comment on "If the role of dysfunctional parenting in psychological disorders was ever fully recognized, the DSM would shrink to the size of a thin pamphlet" in ~health.mental

    serafin
    (edited )
    Link Parent
    Thank you. I do not dispute most of what you contribute to this discussion. Or, to say it differently, I agree with much of what you write. Thank you for being mindful about it, but you did not...

    Thank you. I do not dispute most of what you contribute to this discussion. Or, to say it differently, I agree with much of what you write. Thank you for being mindful about it, but you did not come across as harsh. For me, however, assigning blame is something different than assigning (or taking) responsibility and accountability for one's actions. How much certain actions contribute or worsen certain conditions of life, and what comes first, "neurodivergence" or these actions, and how much and many generations have an influence, whether they are mostly "poor" re-actions or "poor" actions, is up for debate, both here and in the mental health profession.

    There seems to be a consensus that there are correletions between what parents experienced, how that affects relationships to others including their children especially if it stays "unprocessed", that certain behavior influences 'internal chemistry' and/or the other way round, and that hereditary traits can similarly be influenced and changed over time by environmental factors and actions. The directionality is unclear, and it is difficult to practically research this to "prove" anything. There is research around violence and into the dynamics of how victims seem to "re-enact" unprocessed and often repressed experiences later in their lives, as repeated victim or as victim turned perpetrator, just from looking at factual behavior. (see e.g. literature around offender profiling and criminal research). How such data is to be interpreted is then part of the discussion, and all it can lead to the observation of identifable patterns and various theories. It is difficult to claim that one theory is "wrong" and the other is "right", as long as both fit the underlying data. What seems to be a consensus too is that "poor" parenting definitely does not create beneficial circumstances for anyone. As society, we should look at any and all factors that we can influence and control, and we should not shy away to assign accountability, and to investigate which behavior likely leads to beneficial properties in children (self-esteem, self-worth, confidence, kindness/cooperation, ability to form healthy relationships etc). To reject any such influence is at least equally unconstructive than to assign all the responsibility, but I understand how parents, who volunteered for that role, who made the decision to raise children, have to carry the biggest weight. Even if the bad conditions were bad actions by others, parents/caretakers have the original responsibility to protect their children from such harm. Yes, obviously there are practical limits, and we are all "just humans": all the quoted authors take this into account in their work.

    I think I was successful in finding a very provocative quote to stir up the conversation. We both seem to agree that black-and-white thinking and attempts to find "sole causes" is unlikely going to lead to what is true and useful. I understand how this topic caused you to "vent" about certain people, but neither Alice Miller, Philippa Perry, Gabor Mate, nor Pete Walker, do that. They do go into the depths of how other people and society around children contribute to children's upbringing, so it's a bit unfair to put them into that camp. The quote from Mate directly shows that he doesn't, and you can easily find quotes by the others where they talk about what they consider problematic behavior of other adults in childcare roles, school, other parents, etc.

    To reiterate, I do agree with your final paragraph!

    2 votes

  17. Comment on "If the role of dysfunctional parenting in psychological disorders was ever fully recognized, the DSM would shrink to the size of a thin pamphlet" in ~health.mental

    serafin
    (edited )
    Link Parent
    This topic is about the theory, and I tried to relate your comments to what proponents of this theory might say about it. If you carefully read again what I wrote, you may find that I did not...

    Because now not only are you stating I've been abused, you're indirectly telling me that my response is unhealed trauma. You're hiding behind the authors of the article but you're saying it to me.

    This topic is about the theory, and I tried to relate your comments to what proponents of this theory might say about it. If you carefully read again what I wrote, you may find that I did not actually take a position on it myself. I am merely trying to understand and summarize the different perspectives. I could consider your claim that I am "hiding behind the authors" as offensive, but I do not take that perspective in general. You are sharing your perspective, and I appreciate it. I appreciate also how you are staying in dialog. It helps me to understand, and to improve my wording in the future, in the hopes of reducing misunderstandings.

    Your interpretation of my emoji is: your interpretation. To me, it is neither a "winking emoji", nor a contradiction. You could ask what I meant to express by it, but you take it as offense and do not even allow that I explain myself, or take into account that I may not be a native speaker and that I may have different cultural imprinting in how I express myself. I did not mean anything I wrote as an offense.

    I also do not consider your emotions, or anyone's emotions, as ground to dismiss them or consider them irrational. That's again your reading of what I was trying to say. You are angry, and you feel offended. That's what you say, and that's what I take as fact.

    You wrote you have ADHD, and that you experienced what would be considered adverse childhood experiences, which to me does not disprove the theory. That was what I was trying to say. I do not understand how you decide that you do not "carry any weight" from those childhood experiences, and how you know that it has nothing to do with your ADHD. There may or may not be a connection, and your statements didn't help me to further my understanding.

    I am not licensed in the mental health area, but I know a few things about what is expected from a licensed therapist and what would be considered an ethics violation in the framework of my country, and I disagree that what I wrote would be seen as such by some external reviewer. Especially not as a "serious" one. I can relate to your anger, and understand where such a comment is coming from. You are hurt, directly, by your interpretation of what I wrote, dismissing my intentions. Societal norms would allow me to ask for forgiveness for the misunderstanding. I do not want to make people feel hurt from what I write. I will try and improve my language and be more precise in the future. I "hide behind citations", because I do often feel I cannot adequately express myself well enough in foreign languages without being misunderstood, especially around emotional topics such as this one.

  18. Comment on "If the role of dysfunctional parenting in psychological disorders was ever fully recognized, the DSM would shrink to the size of a thin pamphlet" in ~health.mental

    serafin
    Link Parent
    I guess you are refering to me as "the other commenter". Can you point me to where I disregarded your words?

    I guess you are refering to me as "the other commenter". Can you point me to where I disregarded your words?

  19. Comment on "If the role of dysfunctional parenting in psychological disorders was ever fully recognized, the DSM would shrink to the size of a thin pamphlet" in ~health.mental

    serafin
    (edited )
    Link Parent
    A specific action can be considered abusive. We may or may not have different opinions on what each of us considers abuse, both on an individual, and on on a societal level. None of it is meant to...

    Defining someone else's experiences as abuse who is in front of you and telling you otherwise is what I find offensive.

    A specific action can be considered abusive. We may or may not have different opinions on what each of us considers abuse, both on an individual, and on on a societal level. None of it is meant to be "offensive", but purely the observation and judgment of an action, which has a clear direction, in this case from a parent towards a child; and assigning accountability for that action. Whether you share the definition based on your own experiences or not is up to you. I do not consider that to be offensive, it was certainly not meant that way by me. I also don't read smoontjes comment as an attack against you on a personal level.

    "The World Health Organization (WHO) defines child maltreatment as “all forms of physical and emotional ill-treatment, sexual abuse, neglect, and exploitation that results in actual or potential harm to the child’s health, development or dignity.” There are four main types of abuse: neglect, physical abuse, psychological abuse, and sexual abuse. Abuse is defined as an act of commission and neglect is defined as an act of omission in the care leading to potential or actual harm." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK459146/

    In the language used by the authors refered to in the top post, they would likely judge your reaction as a sign of unresolved/unhealed trauma. A "trigger" (reminder) like that may make a victim feel attacked in the present where it is actually a memory of getting attacked in the past.

  20. Comment on "If the role of dysfunctional parenting in psychological disorders was ever fully recognized, the DSM would shrink to the size of a thin pamphlet" in ~health.mental

    serafin
    Link Parent
    Well, you might, at least in the mental framework of the discussion: ADHD? Case in point? :)

    I am carrying no weight from it.

    Well, you might, at least in the mental framework of the discussion: ADHD?

    Unless we really want to re-label all these experiences as abuse, and then yeah I guess everyone has trauma so all the ND people have ptsd.

    Case in point? :)

    1 vote