I can't help but feel like a large part of French rioting is basically like soccer hooligans -- they don't care about the supposedly outrageous event, it's just an excuse.
I can't help but feel like a large part of French rioting is basically like soccer hooligans -- they don't care about the supposedly outrageous event, it's just an excuse.
I want to address your comment on a few different levels. First of all, you describe the killing of Nahel by a police officer as 'supposedly outrageous'. I fail to see what is not outrageous about...
Exemplary
I want to address your comment on a few different levels.
First of all, you describe the killing of Nahel by a police officer as 'supposedly outrageous'. I fail to see what is not outrageous about an unarmed teenager being shot in the head at point blank range. This is corroborated by multiple videos of the shooting from different angles, viewable here (linking to this site as I don't have access to Twitter). This is completely unjustifiable, regardless of what the victim was doing at the time. It is an execution.
Secondly, you suggest that rioters don't actually care about this, that they are just causing destruction for the sake of it. This is hard to verify because the views of protesters and rioters are hard to come by, at least in English language media. But the level of destruction can only be the result of a certain feeling of disenfranchisement. You don't destroy everything around you if you feel nurtured and supported in a society. In the book Riots: An International Comparison, the authors argue against the idea that rioters are irrational and criminal ('hooligans' in your wording). Their central thesis is that:
"Riots are complex phenomena and their outbreak is inevitably symptomatic of deeper societal problems." (p. 6)
So what are these deeper societal problems? For many it comes down to racism - and in particular racist policing - which leaves them feeling alienated from wider French society. Take, for example, this quote from an article in the Guardian:
“It doesn’t just feel a war. It is a war. It is a war against us, the people who live in places like this [...] I am now 40 years old, I have a master’s degree and a family, but all of my life I have been discriminated against and humiliated, always by the police. And now this has happened. People can’t take any more.”
This is a moment for the country to seriously address the deep issues of racism and discrimination in law enforcement.
The anger at Nahel's shooting is exacerbated by the fact that it occured during a traffic stop. A controversial law was introduced in 2017, which allows police officers to use their guns when occupants of a car refuse an order to stop. Nahel's death was the 33rd in such circumstances since the law was introduced. Research shows that the majority of victims have been of Black or Arab origin, leading many to feel that the law allows police to profile suspects and then act with relative impunity if they fail to comply.
Nahel's death therefore encapsulates the problems with French policing and illustrates, with video evidence, how this particular law can be abused. I'm not saying criminal damage is justified, but it is clear that what is happening in France is not just a case of 'hooligans' taking an opportunity to wreak havoc. In many cases it is the result of a building anger and frustration which people feel they have no real way to express.
I’m not referring to this most recent killing at all, at least directly, so I’m not going to address 95% of your comment. I’m referring to the supposed causes of all these riots. The event at the...
I’m not referring to this most recent killing at all, at least directly, so I’m not going to address 95% of your comment.
I’m referring to the supposed causes of all these riots. The event at the centre of these riots ranges from police brutality to labour disputes to educational policies to taxi drivers — at least some media (Fox though, so less reliable) has claimed that at least some of the violence is coming from groups not affiliated with the official cause of the riot.
The violent protesters, who did not carry any union or election paraphernalia, appeared to be from the same fringe groups that have targeted anti-government protests in the past.
This is not at all clear from your comment, which is also posted directly under an article referring to this specific event so I'm not sure how else you expected it to be interpreted. Your link...
I’m not referring to this most recent killing at all, at least directly, so I’m not going to address 95% of your comment.
This is not at all clear from your comment, which is also posted directly under an article referring to this specific event so I'm not sure how else you expected it to be interpreted.
I’m referring to the supposed causes of all these riots.
Your link here takes me to a list of all riots in France since the 13th century, which seems like a very broad reference point. Assuming you are just referring to riots from the 21st century, yes, it may be true that some of those involved are more interested in destruction than effective protest. But I think the question of why protest turned to rioting in these instances is still relevant. France's long history of rioting may make it more likely that protests have this outcome but I still think it's appropriate to look at the motivations for rioters in this specific case (i.e. in the last week since the death of Nahel).
at least some media (Fox though, so less reliable) has claimed that at least some of the violence is coming from groups not affiliated with the official cause of the riot.
This article refers to riots in the 1st of May. Even accepting your initial claim that you're referring to riots in France in general, you make it sound here like you're talking about this specific riot, which is completely separate. Not all riots in France can be painted with the same broad brush. They occur in different areas of the country and are carried out by different demographics and it is worthwhile to look at specific instances rather than assuming they are all the same. Even if there are 'fringe groups' participating in these particular riots, it does not mean that all the participants are protesting just for the hell of it - and indeed the context surrounding Nahel's death would suggest the opposite.
I can't help but feel like a large part of French rioting is basically like soccer hooligans -- they don't care about the supposedly outrageous event, it's just an excuse.
I want to address your comment on a few different levels.
First of all, you describe the killing of Nahel by a police officer as 'supposedly outrageous'. I fail to see what is not outrageous about an unarmed teenager being shot in the head at point blank range. This is corroborated by multiple videos of the shooting from different angles, viewable here (linking to this site as I don't have access to Twitter). This is completely unjustifiable, regardless of what the victim was doing at the time. It is an execution.
Secondly, you suggest that rioters don't actually care about this, that they are just causing destruction for the sake of it. This is hard to verify because the views of protesters and rioters are hard to come by, at least in English language media. But the level of destruction can only be the result of a certain feeling of disenfranchisement. You don't destroy everything around you if you feel nurtured and supported in a society. In the book Riots: An International Comparison, the authors argue against the idea that rioters are irrational and criminal ('hooligans' in your wording). Their central thesis is that:
So what are these deeper societal problems? For many it comes down to racism - and in particular racist policing - which leaves them feeling alienated from wider French society. Take, for example, this quote from an article in the Guardian:
Beyond personal testimony, there is recognition of issues within the French police.Even before this latest incident, France had been criticised at the UN due to the racism and violence of its policing. And on Friday the UN issued a statement in response to Nahel's death which argued that:
The anger at Nahel's shooting is exacerbated by the fact that it occured during a traffic stop. A controversial law was introduced in 2017, which allows police officers to use their guns when occupants of a car refuse an order to stop. Nahel's death was the 33rd in such circumstances since the law was introduced. Research shows that the majority of victims have been of Black or Arab origin, leading many to feel that the law allows police to profile suspects and then act with relative impunity if they fail to comply.
Nahel's death therefore encapsulates the problems with French policing and illustrates, with video evidence, how this particular law can be abused. I'm not saying criminal damage is justified, but it is clear that what is happening in France is not just a case of 'hooligans' taking an opportunity to wreak havoc. In many cases it is the result of a building anger and frustration which people feel they have no real way to express.
I’m not referring to this most recent killing at all, at least directly, so I’m not going to address 95% of your comment.
I’m referring to the supposed causes of all these riots. The event at the centre of these riots ranges from police brutality to labour disputes to educational policies to taxi drivers — at least some media (Fox though, so less reliable) has claimed that at least some of the violence is coming from groups not affiliated with the official cause of the riot.
This is not at all clear from your comment, which is also posted directly under an article referring to this specific event so I'm not sure how else you expected it to be interpreted.
Your link here takes me to a list of all riots in France since the 13th century, which seems like a very broad reference point. Assuming you are just referring to riots from the 21st century, yes, it may be true that some of those involved are more interested in destruction than effective protest. But I think the question of why protest turned to rioting in these instances is still relevant. France's long history of rioting may make it more likely that protests have this outcome but I still think it's appropriate to look at the motivations for rioters in this specific case (i.e. in the last week since the death of Nahel).
This article refers to riots in the 1st of May. Even accepting your initial claim that you're referring to riots in France in general, you make it sound here like you're talking about this specific riot, which is completely separate. Not all riots in France can be painted with the same broad brush. They occur in different areas of the country and are carried out by different demographics and it is worthwhile to look at specific instances rather than assuming they are all the same. Even if there are 'fringe groups' participating in these particular riots, it does not mean that all the participants are protesting just for the hell of it - and indeed the context surrounding Nahel's death would suggest the opposite.
I feel like that is sometimes the case in the US as well, especially when it resorts to looting, property destruction and other crimes.