Israeli Defence Force takes responsibility for deaths of seventeen militants and six civilians in recent operations in Gaza
i'm pretty uninterested in this as a whole so this is probably going to be my only comment here, but i'd just like to note, like in the original thread on recent israeli operations in gaza, that the IDF as a combatant in all of these exchanges will always have a vested interest in downplaying total civilian fatalities and potentially because of that fact, their numbers in this respect are pretty much always lower than any other estimate of fatalities (whether it be from palestinian organizations, international watchdogs, journalistic outlets, or supranational bodies like the UN). they also tend to make higher-end estimates of militant fatalities than these groups than any of those organizations.
here are, for example, the estimates for the 2008-9 Gaza War:
the estimates for 2012's Operation Pillar of Defense:
and the estimates for the 2014 Gaza War:
notice the pattern. it's possible that in some of the smaller cases of conflict they are actually tracking with other estimates, but all of flareups i could find where militant deaths topped civilian deaths seem to only have one set of estimates so they're unable to be compared in this way (or their casualty figures aren't verified/sourceable). in general though, i think this suggests that the IDF's numbers should not be treated as some sort of gospel but more as a probable lower bound of conflict deaths, in the same way that palestinian estimates generally constitute an upper bound.
Hence you wrote a long text post as a response....;-)God fucking damn it, forget I even said anything...
Most of which are also quite partial and have their own vested interests....
In this case they seem highly consistent with what Hamas itself says. Not to mention they have literal pictures and analyses of the people who were killed, particularly the terrorists in clothing that identifies them as terrorists.The difference is discussed in my top level comment. I haven't analyzed reports of previous operations, only this one.
i wrote it because you pinged me in one of your comments. also, this is the lamest reply people always make to this point. me commenting here to point out that the IDF has its own vested interest in presenting casualty numbers and that they should be considered with that in mind does not mean i have an interest in some protracted discussion about the IDF. in fact really the only reason my comment is longer than "the IDF as a combatant in all of these exchanges will always have a vested interest in downplaying total civilian fatalities, so keep that in mind when you read their casualty figures" is because this is tildes, not reddit, and the standard for commenting here is generally higher than reddit.
i've been dealing with comments and dumb snipes of the sort for literally 12 years of my 13 on the internet and not one time in my experience has it ever been used as a joke, so forgive me for not wanting to prolong my stay in this thread trying to parse that out when my intent was literally to make one comment and leave.
trying to extrapolate my viewpoints on things from comments which have literally nothing to do with those viewpoints will do that. i've taken no stance on humor on tildes at all in this thread or on our standards of commenting, but you've somehow managed to spin me explaining why i wrote a comment in here (i was pinged) and why i didn't respond to the "YOU SAY YOU DON'T CARE YET YOU COMMENTED, CHECKMATE LIBERAL" snipe as a joke (because in 12 years i have never met someone who used it as a joke) into some position on humor on here and managed to spin why i didn't make the only comment i originally intended to make in here as short as i could have (because this website prioritizes discussion and encourages longer comments) into some statement in the affirmative on our community standards.
also, tildes objectively has a higher expectation of commenting than reddit does. it's literally a part of tildes's mission, that's not just some shit i pulled out of my ass or which is my personal hot take. if that somehow scares people off, they were never fit to be here at all.
The ITIC (the post link) is effectively the english language mouthpiece of the IDF.
ITIC Summary (some of the statistics are dated) [link]
4 civilian casualties in Israel as a result of Hamas and PIJ fire. Notably includes the literal shooting of an anti-tank missile against someone's car driving on the road on the Israeli side of the border. These anti-tank missiles are normally used against military targets (Hamas doesn't want to waste them on civilians).
They also count 123 wounded.
IDF takes responsibility for 23 casualties. 17 of those are militants.
On civilian casualties, The ITIC says the following:
This is consistent with both what I and @alyaza have said. The IDF does indeed take responsibility for the death of one pregnant woman and two children, as part of those civilian casualties:
This leaves a difference of 4 casualties between Gazan Health Ministry and IDF. The Gazan health ministry claims that an additional pregnant woman and child were killed, while IDF says that it was a missile that was launched from Gaza and landed in Gaza (as some do).
I previously posted an article that analyzed a Gaza news agency tweet that was later removed which supports the IDFs claim.
I haven't looked into the the additional 2 casualties that the Gaza Health ministry counts and the IDF doesn't. They might be counting fetuses, but please don't quote me on that.
I couldn't find statistics about the number wounded in Gaza.
I am making no claims about whether or not the recent IDF operations were justified, or under what conditions they were, in this post.
Feel free to respectfully discuss how you feel about it, now that we have all this data available. Please don't let this devolve into tangential topics, such as [Long ago] Israeli or Palestinian history, or the merits or flaws of BDS. Of course I can't tell you, this isn't my site, but I can ask.
Most mainstream media sources are not going to be posting these statistics because the fighting is over and they don't care to clarify the record.
As long as we're going meta...I think this isn't the best way to try to discuss a complicated topic like this. History is not a tangent, and can never be ignored.
In a complicated geopolitical situation like Israel & Palestine, everything is path dependent. You can't understand what's happening in the present, or what could / should happen in the future, without understanding the events that led up to now.
I am fine with discussions of the immediate history that relates to this topic, but if you start discussing Kfar Etsion or Deir Yassin or the Balfour Declaration or what Yasser Arafat ate for breakfast, then I think you are getting off topic. All I am saying is
keep it relevant.I would pretty please like it if you kept it relevant.
Who determines relevance in a situation like this?
Whoever shouts loudest and longest.
You do. I can't stop you from posting anything you want.
You say that, but you also say:
So it seems like you've taken a distinct stance on what is and is not relevant to this thread, even as you're saying that people can say whatever they want. And indeed they can, but you've set what you consider the acceptable terms of the discussion ahead of time. Do you see how that might limit the discussion?
In my experiences, strangers on the internet have never listened to me before, I do not seriously expect anyone to take my request seriously now. I just didn't want the thread to be locked from heated debate.
I am indicating my personal preference in defining what I think is on and off-topic yes, but I am also saying I am not going to police anyone and tell them what I think of the appropriateness of their message.
Aaaand of course meta-discussion gets more attention than the actual post topic...
TL;DR You have the right to tell me I am full of shit and discuss 19th century Zionism and the BDS movement and I can't do anything about it. So if you're going to do it, just bloody do it so we can stop talking about whether or not you can do it...