As an aside, the million times this post mentions Linux, none of these are actually really related to Linux: it is Unix-like systems the author is talking about. Linux doesn't have much to do with...
As an aside, the million times this post mentions Linux, none of these are actually really related to Linux: it is Unix-like systems the author is talking about. Linux doesn't have much to do with Unix; actually, it shouldn't be impossible (or even particularly difficult) to wrap it up in an interface that behaves like Windows (and vice versa: see WSL). Apart from the API calls and a few features, almost all of the features that comprise what the author refers to as Linux are implemented in shell, libc and coreutils (GNU or otherwise), and they work in any compatible userspace (even NT, long before WSL: ses msys2 and cygwin). I know this is kinda pedantic, but it is kinda sad that Linux means way more than what it is today and obscures other Unix-like systems that are perfectly valid.
An old Sparc 5 workstation. I love that thing. Functionality-wise you're probably better off with Open- or Free-BSD, but this is one slick little machine that works so smoothly I can't let it go.
An old Sparc 5 workstation. I love that thing. Functionality-wise you're probably better off with Open- or Free-BSD, but this is one slick little machine that works so smoothly I can't let it go.
The reason holding me back from learning vim is this: No, I don't mean how do I exit the program. I mean, how do I retrain my brain to stop thinking in terms of vim keybinds. I often see people...
The reason holding me back from learning vim is this:
”How do I quit vim?”
No, I don't mean how do I exit the program. I mean, how do I retrain my brain to stop thinking in terms of vim keybinds.
I often see people lament the loss of Vimperator, and exclaim how they can't use Firefox any other way. Even going so far as to use an outdated version, or a different browser fork completely.
That just seems dicey to me. I don't want to get immersed in a foreign key layout where even switching to a more traditional layout becomes difficult. I don't want to have a hard time using somebody else's workspace.
Will I be forever finding ways to switch my text editors and IDEs to a new control scheme? Will I curse updates that set things back to their defaults?
The apparent boost to efficiency just doesn't seem to justify the frustration that vim users express.
Obviously I can only speak from personal experience, but this has never been an issue for me. I use vim every day and have gotten moderately proficient at it and movement within it, and I have...
Obviously I can only speak from personal experience, but this has never been an issue for me. I use vim every day and have gotten moderately proficient at it and movement within it, and I have never once had the desire to modify other environments to mimic the experience. Vim is good, to me, when you are crafting an object (like a file). I find that it nicely replicates the logical process of operating on a file as you would a physical object - picking up tools, modifying the object, turning it around, changing tools, etc. This isn't something that is needed in 95% of other contexts such as web browsing, straight text editing (like composing a document or email), and other common computer interactions.
Some people really, really like vim-style movement and that is fine. But my feeling is that many of the people who get frustrated or take desperate measures1 would find some other reason to be unsatisfied if those key bindings were present anyway. Vim offers a different way to interact with the abstract object that is a file - one that in my opinion pleasantly reproduces, to the extent that it is possible, the sensations and thought processes of actual physical interaction. It doesn't rewire your brain, but rather engages a side of it usually reserved for other creative tasks. If this ends up making you more productive, you should give it a try.
I was hoping to read a comment like this. It's always hard to tell online when it's a majority expressing a grievance, or just a vocal minority. So I'm very glad to hear your side of things....
I was hoping to read a comment like this. It's always hard to tell online when it's a majority expressing a grievance, or just a vocal minority. So I'm very glad to hear your side of things. Thanks for your input!
I am an Emacser, but I've used Vim for a decent amount of time in the past, and I do still use it at times. Both Emacs and Vim keybindings are superior to something like a random textarea because...
I am an Emacser, but I've used Vim for a decent amount of time in the past, and I do still use it at times. Both Emacs and Vim keybindings are superior to something like a random textarea because they control much more actions and aspects of text or otherwise, and when I am writing a comment like this or dealing with some app is indeed frustrating given how scarce and imprecise the controls are respectively.
But for me that frustration was never enough to warrant sticking to pre-Quantum Firefox. I do wish more software had more customisability and a more pragmatic UI, but not to the point that I can't use vanilla Firefox w/o a keybindings plugin. In fact, I used to use one with firefox, but I stopped when I found out all I used, after a long time with the plugin installed, was f and F for opening links, and the rest were features that I only occasionally stumbled upon when I hit a key unintentionally.
I think the main pain point is the customisability these Vim plugins brought mainly to the browsers, given they allow plugging in even external scripts into the browser easily. What takes a .desktop file, a command that updates some FreeDesktop database, a Firefox setting, and some more config in Emacs can easily be reduced to a single line of config that shells out to Emacsclient with a small Elisp payload that gets stuff done. For me, that is way more important than losing the ability to (not really) use Vim or Emacs keybindings in my browsing web pages, and the only reason I'd consider sticking to Pale Moon or switching to Qutebrowser or alike. There is really repetitive stuff where a power user like me could easily program their tool to save them lots of friction, but in none of the major browsers is there any simple way to achieve this reliably and smoothly.
I think people exaggerate it pretty heavily, as a sideways way of bragging about how accustomed they are to vim (which is still treated as kind of an elite/arcane skill, even among technical...
I think people exaggerate it pretty heavily, as a sideways way of bragging about how accustomed they are to vim (which is still treated as kind of an elite/arcane skill, even among technical people). I've been using it as my only editor for coding for probably 10 years now, and do a lot of normal writing through it as well. I'll occasionally try to use vim keys in other programs without thinking about it, but it's really never been a significant problem.
If anything, I have a lot more trouble overall related to having remapped Caps Lock to Esc on all my computers (which is related to vim usage, but not directly part of it). I hit Caps Lock constantly, so if I'm on a computer that doesn't have that set up I'm always suddenly typing in all caps.
As an aside, the million times this post mentions Linux, none of these are actually really related to Linux: it is Unix-like systems the author is talking about. Linux doesn't have much to do with Unix; actually, it shouldn't be impossible (or even particularly difficult) to wrap it up in an interface that behaves like Windows (and vice versa: see WSL). Apart from the API calls and a few features, almost all of the features that comprise what the author refers to as Linux are implemented in shell, libc and coreutils (GNU or otherwise), and they work in any compatible userspace (even NT, long before WSL: ses msys2 and cygwin). I know this is kinda pedantic, but it is kinda sad that Linux means way more than what it is today and obscures other Unix-like systems that are perfectly valid.
Edit: some, punctuation
I'm with you. I never completely moved and still do most on BSD or Solaris (I know I know)
How do you use Solaris? Illumos? How do you compare it to BSDs?
An old Sparc 5 workstation. I love that thing. Functionality-wise you're probably better off with Open- or Free-BSD, but this is one slick little machine that works so smoothly I can't let it go.
The reason holding me back from learning vim is this:
No, I don't mean how do I exit the program. I mean, how do I retrain my brain to stop thinking in terms of vim keybinds.
I often see people lament the loss of Vimperator, and exclaim how they can't use Firefox any other way. Even going so far as to use an outdated version, or a different browser fork completely.
That just seems dicey to me. I don't want to get immersed in a foreign key layout where even switching to a more traditional layout becomes difficult. I don't want to have a hard time using somebody else's workspace.
Will I be forever finding ways to switch my text editors and IDEs to a new control scheme? Will I curse updates that set things back to their defaults?
The apparent boost to efficiency just doesn't seem to justify the frustration that vim users express.
edit: Great answers, all! Thanks for your input.
Obviously I can only speak from personal experience, but this has never been an issue for me. I use vim every day and have gotten moderately proficient at it and movement within it, and I have never once had the desire to modify other environments to mimic the experience. Vim is good, to me, when you are crafting an object (like a file). I find that it nicely replicates the logical process of operating on a file as you would a physical object - picking up tools, modifying the object, turning it around, changing tools, etc. This isn't something that is needed in 95% of other contexts such as web browsing, straight text editing (like composing a document or email), and other common computer interactions.
Some people really, really like vim-style movement and that is fine. But my feeling is that many of the people who get frustrated or take desperate measures1 would find some other reason to be unsatisfied if those key bindings were present anyway. Vim offers a different way to interact with the abstract object that is a file - one that in my opinion pleasantly reproduces, to the extent that it is possible, the sensations and thought processes of actual physical interaction. It doesn't rewire your brain, but rather engages a side of it usually reserved for other creative tasks. If this ends up making you more productive, you should give it a try.
1 Such as using outdated or unstable versions.
I was hoping to read a comment like this. It's always hard to tell online when it's a majority expressing a grievance, or just a vocal minority. So I'm very glad to hear your side of things. Thanks for your input!
I am an Emacser, but I've used Vim for a decent amount of time in the past, and I do still use it at times. Both Emacs and Vim keybindings are superior to something like a random textarea because they control much more actions and aspects of text or otherwise, and when I am writing a comment like this or dealing with some app is indeed frustrating given how scarce and imprecise the controls are respectively.
But for me that frustration was never enough to warrant sticking to pre-Quantum Firefox. I do wish more software had more customisability and a more pragmatic UI, but not to the point that I can't use vanilla Firefox w/o a keybindings plugin. In fact, I used to use one with firefox, but I stopped when I found out all I used, after a long time with the plugin installed, was f and F for opening links, and the rest were features that I only occasionally stumbled upon when I hit a key unintentionally.
I think the main pain point is the customisability these Vim plugins brought mainly to the browsers, given they allow plugging in even external scripts into the browser easily. What takes a .desktop file, a command that updates some FreeDesktop database, a Firefox setting, and some more config in Emacs can easily be reduced to a single line of config that shells out to Emacsclient with a small Elisp payload that gets stuff done. For me, that is way more important than losing the ability to (not really) use Vim or Emacs keybindings in my browsing web pages, and the only reason I'd consider sticking to Pale Moon or switching to Qutebrowser or alike. There is really repetitive stuff where a power user like me could easily program their tool to save them lots of friction, but in none of the major browsers is there any simple way to achieve this reliably and smoothly.
I think people exaggerate it pretty heavily, as a sideways way of bragging about how accustomed they are to vim (which is still treated as kind of an elite/arcane skill, even among technical people). I've been using it as my only editor for coding for probably 10 years now, and do a lot of normal writing through it as well. I'll occasionally try to use vim keys in other programs without thinking about it, but it's really never been a significant problem.
If anything, I have a lot more trouble overall related to having remapped Caps Lock to Esc on all my computers (which is related to vim usage, but not directly part of it). I hit Caps Lock constantly, so if I'm on a computer that doesn't have that set up I'm always suddenly typing in all caps.
Vim keys are not that foreign. You find them everywhere in some shape or form, including most popular text editors and IDEs.