18 votes

Coming soon: A new site for fully free collaboration

11 comments

  1. [11]
    hungariantoast
    Link
    Link to the actual evaluation: Fsf 2019 forge evaluation First, I find the idea of a federated forge really interesting. I'm almost sad that the FSF isn't going to be working on one, but hopefully...

    Link to the actual evaluation:

    First, I find the idea of a federated forge really interesting. I'm almost sad that the FSF isn't going to be working on one, but hopefully someone will eventually come along and do that.

    Second, some of these options look interesting, but aside from GitLab and maybe SourceHut, I can't really see myself using these for projects.

    Third, something I see brought up all the time and have been thinking about for a while is how much does hosting your project on GitHub positively affect its popularity?

    3 votes
    1. [10]
      joelthelion
      Link Parent
      If you start with such crippling dogma, it's going to be hard to get anywhere. There's nothing non-free about javascript, and it absolutely improves UX.

      We eventually want to make our forge work without JavaScript at all, for an A rating on the GNU ethical criteria

      If you start with such crippling dogma, it's going to be hard to get anywhere. There's nothing non-free about javascript, and it absolutely improves UX.

      7 votes
      1. [2]
        pallas
        Link Parent
        I assume their goal is to make it possible to use their forge without Javascript, not to avoid using Javascript entirely, as they also discuss licensing considerations for Javascript. The GNU...

        I assume their goal is to make it possible to use their forge without Javascript, not to avoid using Javascript entirely, as they also discuss licensing considerations for Javascript.

        The GNU project has an article about licence concerns with Javascript. As is rather typical for them, they combine rather reasonable points with an approach to addressing them that seems likely to be dismissed by many as annoying (writing a browser extension to intentionally cripple Javascript that doesn't include their preferred licensing comment style, and encouraging users to send their manifesto to websites), even if it may be one of the few approaches that would actually have a chance of making the problem better known.

        10 votes
        1. joelthelion
          Link Parent
          Oh, right, I misread it. That's a much more reasonable goal (although not really necessary IMHO, as long as accessibility concerns are met).

          I assume their goal is to make it possible to use their forge without Javascript

          Oh, right, I misread it. That's a much more reasonable goal (although not really necessary IMHO, as long as accessibility concerns are met).

          1 vote
      2. [5]
        cardigan
        Link Parent
        Many JavaScript applications are larger than a lot of OS utilities, and are intensely obfuscated and minified. Would you consider the JavaScript source to Google Docs understandable in the same...

        Many JavaScript applications are larger than a lot of OS utilities, and are intensely obfuscated and minified. Would you consider the JavaScript source to Google Docs understandable in the same way as the HTML/CSS source to a web page?

        2 votes
        1. [2]
          joelthelion
          Link Parent
          Does that mean we should refrain from using JavaScript entirely? That's a bit like saying that since a lot of software is proprietary, we should refrain from using computers entirely.

          Does that mean we should refrain from using JavaScript entirely?

          That's a bit like saying that since a lot of software is proprietary, we should refrain from using computers entirely.

          4 votes
          1. cardigan
            Link Parent
            No, but we also shouldn't pretend that it's mostly used for trivial or UX purposes.

            Does that mean we should refrain from using JavaScript entirely?

            No, but we also shouldn't pretend that it's mostly used for trivial or UX purposes.

            1 vote
        2. Diff
          Link Parent
          That doesn't force any given new code to be written the same way, though. And it really doesn't take that much JavaScript at all to get nearly all the benefit of the 10-ton heavyweight sites. I've...

          That doesn't force any given new code to be written the same way, though. And it really doesn't take that much JavaScript at all to get nearly all the benefit of the 10-ton heavyweight sites. I've got a site that's almost entirely plain HTML, with JavaScript being used to enhance a few areas to avoid taking users out of the "flow" of things, split up into a handful of small files, each easy to read with a single, clear purpose. Someone could audit all the JavaScript in maybe 10 minutes.

          2 votes
        3. ThatFanficGuy
          Link Parent
          Bullshit practices in JS use are just that: practices. Google gets away with it – along with many other companies – because it's too big to be swayed by such things as the ideals of the Open Web....

          Bullshit practices in JS use are just that: practices. Google gets away with it – along with many other companies – because it's too big to be swayed by such things as the ideals of the Open Web. Many developers not involved in those companies would be eager to criticize such an approach.

          (Minification is mostly a remnant of the past today. Modern servers and browsers have layers of protocols that enable extensive compression of data between the server and the user. The whole Intergrid app gets compressed from ~50kB to ~10kB when sent to the user, with no harm to performance. It's amazing.)

          There is a growing movement among web developers and designers to move away from restrictive, punitive practices towards a modern, accessible, easy-to-use, lightweight Web that relies on open-source software. Dark patterns is mostly a Silicon Valley thing where work ethic is pushed aside for the next buck in one's pocket.

          1 vote
      3. [2]
        arp242
        Link Parent
        That's pretty much the FSF's motto innit? For my own product, I started out with "works without JavaScript" as well. It's a "classic" template-driven jQuery app (still works very well IMHO, but...

        If you start with such crippling dogma, it's going to be hard to get anywhere

        That's pretty much the FSF's motto innit?

        For my own product, I started out with "works without JavaScript" as well. It's a "classic" template-driven jQuery app (still works very well IMHO, but that's another discussion) so I figured it wouldn't be that hard.

        Turned out ... it was actually quite hard, and a lot of duplicate work. There are loads of little things you need to duplicate and the ROI goes down very fast very hard. I decided to just let the "works without JS"-feature go.

        2 votes
        1. reese
          Link Parent
          My statically generated blog works without JS (well, when it's not being statically generated), but I can't imagine making a product, for money, that doesn't downright depend on it in some way....

          My statically generated blog works without JS (well, when it's not being statically generated), but I can't imagine making a product, for money, that doesn't downright depend on it in some way. Most anything I'd consider making would be interactive and event-driven on the web.

          Today, for a frontend with a non-trivial backend, I'd probably use Svelte or something like it. It's all the advantages of a framework like React, but without the unnecessary complexity (and learning curve), virtual DOM, asinine footprint, etc.

          1 vote