I was curious about the source of the neurons (whether from stem cells, neuronal cell line, or primary cells). They note that they're using 'rat cortical cells'. So, as far as I can tell, these...
I was curious about the source of the neurons (whether from stem cells, neuronal cell line, or primary cells). They note that they're using 'rat cortical cells'.
So, as far as I can tell, these guys are using cells collected from rats (which have to be killed for this collection)* for.. entertainment?
I'm not a vegetarian, nor am I opposed to the use of animals in research (in fact, I briefly did in an earlier life). To me, these have some material purpose (though respect many would disagree with me even on these points). But, having myself sacrificed fetal rodents to harvest brain cells for research, I'm not particularly enamoured about the idea of their use for funsies.
Maybe I'm overlooking something about the creators. Maybe they're also doing research and the youtube outputs are just a spinoff of that research. But a cursory glance at their profile didnt suggest it. They claim it's an educational channel to help show DIY science, but this really strikes me as beyond any affordability for almost any diy-er.
* footnote about harvesting rodent neurons
To paint a picture about why such casual use of animals bothers me, if it's anything like my experience, the rodents were likely fetal, and likely had to be sacrified via decapitation as the most humane method. This is done with either a small guillotine or scissors. I couldn't guess off the top of my head the number of rats to yield the amount they're purchasing, but it's not totally insubstantial.
I think I consider this more towards the 'education' end of the education<-->funsies axis, which I think makes it rather more acceptable, ethically. Just because the people watching can't...
I think I consider this more towards the 'education' end of the education<-->funsies axis, which I think makes it rather more acceptable, ethically. Just because the people watching can't replicate it doesn't mean there's no educational value. It's useful to show processes, and demonstrate that even fairly bleeding edge science can be done in a (albeit very well equipped) home lab. Also this is just the kind of thing which might inspire a teenager to get into biotech.
Also it does somewhat undermine your ethical position when you admit to eating meat for pleasure! And without even recording education video for the internet while you do... :)
Towards the end of the video they talk about the possibility of culturing neurons from skin cells, which is non-destructive to the donor creature.
You make a good point about inspiration and not jsut pure education, and I can see why it could be argued as educational. I did feel like they glossed over the cell source way too casually, though...
You make a good point about inspiration and not jsut pure education, and I can see why it could be argued as educational. I did feel like they glossed over the cell source way too casually, though (they also admitted it was a cost based decision vs. Other sources), and it was a missed teachable moment.
Just for clarity, and not to get too argumentitive or defensive, I didnt admit to eating meat for (purely) pleasure, rather I see a level of practicality (sustainance). I realize I didnt explain myself well, though. I actually dont eat much meat, i used to be a vegetarian. But I also have digestive issues that limit eating a good chunk of plant-based proteins and some other common ingredients, so completely eliminating meat would be difficult for me. Totally get if you disagree, and not trying to start a silly internet spat. Just trying to explain myself a little better. :)
I feel like you're blowing the animal issue far out of proportion. Millions of rats and other animals are killed to be dissected in schools and labs every year, rats are routinely exterminated...
I feel like you're blowing the animal issue far out of proportion. Millions of rats and other animals are killed to be dissected in schools and labs every year, rats are routinely exterminated around the world. Surely the death of a rat to provide education to people isn't an ethical hurdle that is causing you much strife.
Just because you don't find it to be educational or useful for DIY doesn't mean that other people don't. YouTube has a very very wide audience and you would absolutely be surprised at the range of uses a video like this could have. Even if it just gets people interested in the science I consider that a worthwhile investment.
Yea, thinking about it, I reacted in part because of my own history (i hated the animal aspect of my work. even if i felt it was ethically ok, it weighed on me and in part influenced me to abandon...
Yea, thinking about it, I reacted in part because of my own history (i hated the animal aspect of my work. even if i felt it was ethically ok, it weighed on me and in part influenced me to abandon a science related career). And yes, my comment was absolutely informed by thinking of my own experience.
I very much agree with your sentiment of getting folks excited about science. But i also think it's important to give people enough info to help them make choices that align with their values or limits, which i still think this video glossed over.
Anyway, i do appreciate you sharing sharing your perspective, thanks: )
Sorry if I came off as aggressive, there was another comment on here that felt like it was attacking this channel unfairly and it riled me up a bit. I shouldn't have been so dismissive of your...
Sorry if I came off as aggressive, there was another comment on here that felt like it was attacking this channel unfairly and it riled me up a bit. I shouldn't have been so dismissive of your perspective, especially when you actually have experience with animal testing (I have none.) I'm sure it changes your thought process quite a bit when you're the one having to do it to an animal.
On the scheme of animal testing / deaths. This is so far down the list of what I find upsetting in that industry. This is at least very educational. And the animals were not tortured (although...
On the scheme of animal testing / deaths. This is so far down the list of what I find upsetting in that industry. This is at least very educational. And the animals were not tortured (although killed)
At the end of the day, the videos that Thought Emporium makes are the final product; entertainment that gives intrepid biohackers from-the-trenches info on pitfalls and protocols to give them...
At the end of the day, the videos that Thought Emporium makes are the final product; entertainment that gives intrepid biohackers from-the-trenches info on pitfalls and protocols to give them enough knowledge to be dangerous. If you watch their other videos, you'll find that ethics aren't really a concern. From completely ignoring the horror of Fetal Bovine Serum to dogfooding their own home-spun genetic therapy, the channel is really on the edge. Thankfully the expenses involved do push it far outside of widespread replication by others, I consider that a good thing.
The Thought Emporium is a research and education collective focused on the development and exploration of technology. We pride ourselves on taking an interdisciplinary approach to solve problems in science and engineering.
For us one of the most important things is to make science open so that anyone can access the data and protocols for themselves. One way we do this is through the creation of educational videos that explore a variety of topics and projects.
As we develop projects we often put together complete tutorials explaining exactly how the research works so that it can be replicated by any. A small selection of the videos are available here, but to see the whole collection be sure to check out our YouTube channel.
Truthfully I've not come across this channel before, so I made my critique well knowing I could have been missing a bigger picture. I may poke around a little more when Im less tired but in the...
Truthfully I've not come across this channel before, so I made my critique well knowing I could have been missing a bigger picture.
I may poke around a little more when Im less tired but in the meantime thank you for the context.
Just to save you the watch if you're expecting the result hinted at in the title - they do not get neurons to play Doom in this video, this is just the start of a video series. But it's really...
Just to save you the watch if you're expecting the result hinted at in the title - they do not get neurons to play Doom in this video, this is just the start of a video series. But it's really interesting what they've done so far.
"What is my purpose?" "You play DOOM." "Oh my god." Jokes aside, I'm baffled and scared by the idea that we can grow neurons to play video games with some form of sentience. The mere idea that we...
"What is my purpose?"
"You play DOOM."
"Oh my god."
Jokes aside, I'm baffled and scared by the idea that we can grow neurons to play video games with some form of sentience. The mere idea that we are growing living, possibly sentient organisms and condemning them to life in a petri dish for science is kinda terrifying.
These don't have sentience. That requires a large, complex structure to develop. This is a smattering of cells that are reacting to stimulus. The final result won't be any smarter than an insect,...
These don't have sentience. That requires a large, complex structure to develop. This is a smattering of cells that are reacting to stimulus. The final result won't be any smarter than an insect, probably not even a worm. It will barely understand "pain" and only pain in the sense of input signal avoidance.
We're a long way off from the tortured Rick and Morty butter tray.
I was curious about the source of the neurons (whether from stem cells, neuronal cell line, or primary cells). They note that they're using 'rat cortical cells'.
So, as far as I can tell, these guys are using cells collected from rats (which have to be killed for this collection)* for.. entertainment?
I'm not a vegetarian, nor am I opposed to the use of animals in research (in fact, I briefly did in an earlier life). To me, these have some material purpose (though respect many would disagree with me even on these points). But, having myself sacrificed fetal rodents to harvest brain cells for research, I'm not particularly enamoured about the idea of their use for funsies.
Maybe I'm overlooking something about the creators. Maybe they're also doing research and the youtube outputs are just a spinoff of that research. But a cursory glance at their profile didnt suggest it. They claim it's an educational channel to help show DIY science, but this really strikes me as beyond any affordability for almost any diy-er.
* footnote about harvesting rodent neurons
To paint a picture about why such casual use of animals bothers me, if it's anything like my experience, the rodents were likely fetal, and likely had to be sacrified via decapitation as the most humane method. This is done with either a small guillotine or scissors. I couldn't guess off the top of my head the number of rats to yield the amount they're purchasing, but it's not totally insubstantial.
I think I consider this more towards the 'education' end of the education<-->funsies axis, which I think makes it rather more acceptable, ethically. Just because the people watching can't replicate it doesn't mean there's no educational value. It's useful to show processes, and demonstrate that even fairly bleeding edge science can be done in a (albeit very well equipped) home lab. Also this is just the kind of thing which might inspire a teenager to get into biotech.
Also it does somewhat undermine your ethical position when you admit to eating meat for pleasure! And without even recording education video for the internet while you do... :)
Towards the end of the video they talk about the possibility of culturing neurons from skin cells, which is non-destructive to the donor creature.
You make a good point about inspiration and not jsut pure education, and I can see why it could be argued as educational. I did feel like they glossed over the cell source way too casually, though (they also admitted it was a cost based decision vs. Other sources), and it was a missed teachable moment.
Just for clarity, and not to get too argumentitive or defensive, I didnt admit to eating meat for (purely) pleasure, rather I see a level of practicality (sustainance). I realize I didnt explain myself well, though. I actually dont eat much meat, i used to be a vegetarian. But I also have digestive issues that limit eating a good chunk of plant-based proteins and some other common ingredients, so completely eliminating meat would be difficult for me. Totally get if you disagree, and not trying to start a silly internet spat. Just trying to explain myself a little better. :)
I feel like you're blowing the animal issue far out of proportion. Millions of rats and other animals are killed to be dissected in schools and labs every year, rats are routinely exterminated around the world. Surely the death of a rat to provide education to people isn't an ethical hurdle that is causing you much strife.
Just because you don't find it to be educational or useful for DIY doesn't mean that other people don't. YouTube has a very very wide audience and you would absolutely be surprised at the range of uses a video like this could have. Even if it just gets people interested in the science I consider that a worthwhile investment.
Yea, thinking about it, I reacted in part because of my own history (i hated the animal aspect of my work. even if i felt it was ethically ok, it weighed on me and in part influenced me to abandon a science related career). And yes, my comment was absolutely informed by thinking of my own experience.
I very much agree with your sentiment of getting folks excited about science. But i also think it's important to give people enough info to help them make choices that align with their values or limits, which i still think this video glossed over.
Anyway, i do appreciate you sharing sharing your perspective, thanks: )
Sorry if I came off as aggressive, there was another comment on here that felt like it was attacking this channel unfairly and it riled me up a bit. I shouldn't have been so dismissive of your perspective, especially when you actually have experience with animal testing (I have none.) I'm sure it changes your thought process quite a bit when you're the one having to do it to an animal.
On the scheme of animal testing / deaths. This is so far down the list of what I find upsetting in that industry. This is at least very educational. And the animals were not tortured (although killed)
Looking at you beauty industry.
At the end of the day, the videos that Thought Emporium makes are the final product; entertainment that gives intrepid biohackers from-the-trenches info on pitfalls and protocols to give them enough knowledge to be dangerous. If you watch their other videos, you'll find that ethics aren't really a concern. From completely ignoring the horror of Fetal Bovine Serum to dogfooding their own home-spun genetic therapy, the channel is really on the edge. Thankfully the expenses involved do push it far outside of widespread replication by others, I consider that a good thing.
From their website's about us:
Truthfully I've not come across this channel before, so I made my critique well knowing I could have been missing a bigger picture.
I may poke around a little more when Im less tired but in the meantime thank you for the context.
Just to save you the watch if you're expecting the result hinted at in the title - they do not get neurons to play Doom in this video, this is just the start of a video series. But it's really interesting what they've done so far.
Just when you think you've seen every Doom port... Now they're coming for your mind.
The only thing they fear? Your neurons.
Speaking for myself, my neurons have been able to play doom for 20 years.
Another person of culture I see.
Do you wake to Mick Gordon daily?
Welcome to the cult.
"What is my purpose?"
"You play DOOM."
"Oh my god."
Jokes aside, I'm baffled and scared by the idea that we can grow neurons to play video games with some form of sentience. The mere idea that we are growing living, possibly sentient organisms and condemning them to life in a petri dish for science is kinda terrifying.
These don't have sentience. That requires a large, complex structure to develop. This is a smattering of cells that are reacting to stimulus. The final result won't be any smarter than an insect, probably not even a worm. It will barely understand "pain" and only pain in the sense of input signal avoidance.
We're a long way off from the tortured Rick and Morty butter tray.