This sure was triggering as someone who has thoroughly enjoyed watching Tyler "grow up". I can't find what the point of the article was other than to just harp on stuff that he did and said when...
This sure was triggering as someone who has thoroughly enjoyed watching Tyler "grow up". I can't find what the point of the article was other than to just harp on stuff that he did and said when he was a teenager. I'm not gonna defend his lyrics from Goblin or Bastard, but the dude was a closeted gay teenage rapper who had the attention of the internet. The author so frequently insults/belittles him and the artists surrounding him, they just seem upset at his success and growth but never explain why it's such a problem. It just kinda reads as someone who got upset by his edgy lyrics (which I'm sure was the point.)
I read it as someone doing exactly the type of stuff Tyler wants them to do. He's less so now-a-days (ever since Scumfuck Flowerboy, really), but traditionally he's a huge edgelord troll who loves...
I read it as someone doing exactly the type of stuff Tyler wants them to do. He's less so now-a-days (ever since Scumfuck Flowerboy, really), but traditionally he's a huge edgelord troll who loves it when people react negatively to the things he says. I don't say that to belittle him or make fun, of course. I love me some Tyler and without him we may never have gotten Frank Ocean, who is also near and dear to my heart.
TL;DR - I think the author bit on some ancient troll bait that everyone else has largely been wise enough to ignore.
You know what, I'll mostly agree with the article. It's bullshit that you can build a career off of being the edgiest asshole with a following then come out of the closet with a cuddly warm sadboi...
You know what, I'll mostly agree with the article. It's bullshit that you can build a career off of being the edgiest asshole with a following then come out of the closet with a cuddly warm sadboi aesthetic then be the best friend of every social justice-interested hip hop publication like you didn't just spend the last few years making it less welcoming and more threatening to be a fan of the genre. Would we accept this if Eminem pulled this shit tomorrow? Would Recovery 2 be the next "woke" listener's choice? I hope not.
You're allowed to grow as a person, but I sure hope we don't make a habit out of using that growth to paint over your bullshit and use it as part of your new rebranding and marketing drive. Yall know Flower Boy wouldn't have gotten half the conversation if it wasn't for the novelty of his "turn."
It doesn't help that the music is soulless, but that's beside the point.
Read as a salty "I don't like it" :) The last two albums are very artificial to me, Cherry Bomb was the only time I really enjoyed him as a musician (mostly trying to ignore lyrics, if that isn't...
Read as a salty "I don't like it" :)
The last two albums are very artificial to me, Cherry Bomb was the only time I really enjoyed him as a musician (mostly trying to ignore lyrics, if that isn't obvious).
But what is the alternative? Are artists not allowed to make music anymore after they decide to stop making problematic art? In Tylers case, he's pretty candid about how he used to be an edgelord...
It's bullshit that you can build a career off of being the edgiest asshole with a following then come out of the closet with a cuddly warm sadboi aesthetic then be the best friend of every social justice-interested hip hop publication like you didn't just spend the last few years making it less welcoming and more threatening to be a fan of the genre.
But what is the alternative? Are artists not allowed to make music anymore after they decide to stop making problematic art? In Tylers case, he's pretty candid about how he used to be an edgelord and that he no longer identifies with the music he wrote a decade ago.
Yall know Flower Boy wouldn't have gotten half the conversation if it wasn't for the novelty of his "turn."
Besides it being a really solid album on it's own merit, this is a standard PR move that he took advantage of.It's not as though the album was written in order to surprise everyone, it was an organic change of form. It's the reason why a lot of artists get a lot of flak from making big changes in sound when they don't pull it off correctly. He took a leap with a new sound and it worked, there's no real valid criticism there. Just kind of sounds like his brand of music isn't for you.
I said you're allowed to grow as a person, but you shouldn't get brownie points for doing so as if you were never the worse person you used to be. There's a massive gradient between "being allowed...
I said you're allowed to grow as a person, but you shouldn't get brownie points for doing so as if you were never the worse person you used to be.
There's a massive gradient between "being allowed to move on" and "getting all your previous work re-interpreted as tackling your own sexuality and wrestling with it, earning you even more goodwill than if you just were never a homophobe." I'm fine with the former, but I loathe the spectacle and free attention earned by doing a bunch of shitty things and later moving in a different direction and kinda sorta denouncing it all. Excuse me, but I think not being a piece of shit > being a reformed piece of shit.
It being a standard PR move...sure? I don't see how that makes it any more right.
Just kind of sounds like his brand of music isn't for you.
Any dislike of any piece of art is just that. That's not super meaningful.
I just don't see where you are getting that from. I've never seen anyone give him a pass for his lyrics on his first couple releases. What I have seen is that looking back, in context of him being...
getting all your previous work re-interpreted as tackling your own sexuality and wrestling with it, earning you even more goodwill than if you just were never a homophobe
I just don't see where you are getting that from. I've never seen anyone give him a pass for his lyrics on his first couple releases. What I have seen is that looking back, in context of him being a young rapper, they make a little more sense and clearly don't reflect on his newer works (possibly like some other artists trying to bury their iffy past.) If he still played and acknowledge those songs, I could see it being an issue, but he has left all that behind.
It being a standard PR move...sure? I don't see how that makes it any more right.
The album was first and foremost a thoughtful and genuinely good piece of music. It just also happened to be a departure from his usual sound and this was used to his advantage. I don't think it makes it more right but your original comment paints the album as if it didn't deserve the critical praise it received.
Excuse me, but I think not being a piece of shit > being a reformed piece of shit
Thats great and I agree but this is such an easy thing to say with the foresite of not being a 15 year old. I just think it's silly to lose your mind over the ignorant ramblings of a teenager.
I have absolutely seen plenty of people going back and reading those old lyrics differently, but I'll say that that hasn't been the dominant narrative. What has, though, has been the shift from...
I have absolutely seen plenty of people going back and reading those old lyrics differently, but I'll say that that hasn't been the dominant narrative. What has, though, has been the shift from the edgelord image to a soft friendly gay man, that was overwhelmingly the source of conversation around Flower Boy. Mostmajorreviews were nearly entirely focused on it, that was unquestionably the major point of interest. I don't think you should get to leverage your status as "known shitty person" to get buzz when you change. There's no way you can believe it'd be as much of a story if he was never Mr. Homophobe.
your original comment paints the album as if it didn't deserve the critical praise it received
I don't think it did, and I disagree with the things you like about it. That's cool, whatever. My point isn't that much about the quality of the music, I'd feel the same if I liked it. Hell, I did like a couple tracks for a while and thought it was acceptable, it's just too shallow to hold up...and I felt the same.
I just think it's silly to lose your mind over the ignorant ramblings of a teenager.
I care about hip hop, and I care about how he contributed to making it a shittier thing to be into for people like me. If that and thinking he shouldn't be able to spin that for his own benefit means I'm "losing my mind," then so be it. Also, Tyler was still doing this when he was ~24...I think you can know better by then.
He's 28 years old. When he burst onto the scene with Odd Future, he was what, 18? Idk how much of 2010 you remember, but dead baby jokes were weirdly popular back then. Only, it wasn't weird at...
He's 28 years old. When he burst onto the scene with Odd Future, he was what, 18? Idk how much of 2010 you remember, but dead baby jokes were weirdly popular back then. Only, it wasn't weird at the time. Being crude and offensive for the sake of being crude and offensive was very much a part of the comedic zeitgeist for young men (sadly it still is).
I guess I just don't see why he has to be apologetic. Actions not words, right? He's continuing to make music and you can literally track his growth through it. Igor makes two mature, thoughtful, artistic contributions to his discography in a row. Is that not growth? Maybe if you liked his music more, you'd be more sympathetic to his character and the way it's reflected in his work?
I would appreciate if he was a little more apologetic, but I don't really place most of my frustration right now on him. I think the majority of the issue is with music publications and fans who...
I would appreciate if he was a little more apologetic, but I don't really place most of my frustration right now on him. I think the majority of the issue is with music publications and fans who have put him on a pedestal for being a reformed dick.
I'm not sure I agree with your point about 2010 or the acceptability of his actions at the time, but honestly I don't think it matters much for what I'm saying. He can move forward and I don't think he has to be defined by that forever. What I do hate is that it's a boost to his career and he gets to gain socially and financially by having his status as a former asshole make his turn to a not-asshole be more novel than if he was just always a cool guy.
I want to respond to this, but I'm not sure how much is directed at what I'm saying and how much is directed toward the article. I guess I'm less interested in defending the article itself than...
I want to respond to this, but I'm not sure how much is directed at what I'm saying and how much is directed toward the article.
I guess I'm less interested in defending the article itself than what I took from it and my own thoughts, which have more to do with how Tyler has been embraced in recent years than how he was originally "allowed to happen." (and to be fair, X and 6ix9ine are entirely different levels of shit that I would never say we should move past as we have with Tyler) How we respond to the reformed assholes of the world is a valid thing to consider, and I think Tyler has been a mishandled case.
This sure was triggering as someone who has thoroughly enjoyed watching Tyler "grow up". I can't find what the point of the article was other than to just harp on stuff that he did and said when he was a teenager. I'm not gonna defend his lyrics from Goblin or Bastard, but the dude was a closeted gay teenage rapper who had the attention of the internet. The author so frequently insults/belittles him and the artists surrounding him, they just seem upset at his success and growth but never explain why it's such a problem. It just kinda reads as someone who got upset by his edgy lyrics (which I'm sure was the point.)
I read it as someone doing exactly the type of stuff Tyler wants them to do. He's less so now-a-days (ever since Scumfuck Flowerboy, really), but traditionally he's a huge edgelord troll who loves it when people react negatively to the things he says. I don't say that to belittle him or make fun, of course. I love me some Tyler and without him we may never have gotten Frank Ocean, who is also near and dear to my heart.
TL;DR - I think the author bit on some ancient troll bait that everyone else has largely been wise enough to ignore.
You know what, I'll mostly agree with the article. It's bullshit that you can build a career off of being the edgiest asshole with a following then come out of the closet with a cuddly warm sadboi aesthetic then be the best friend of every social justice-interested hip hop publication like you didn't just spend the last few years making it less welcoming and more threatening to be a fan of the genre. Would we accept this if Eminem pulled this shit tomorrow? Would Recovery 2 be the next "woke" listener's choice? I hope not.
You're allowed to grow as a person, but I sure hope we don't make a habit out of using that growth to paint over your bullshit and use it as part of your new rebranding and marketing drive. Yall know Flower Boy wouldn't have gotten half the conversation if it wasn't for the novelty of his "turn."
It doesn't help that the music is soulless, but that's beside the point.
Are you willing to elaborate on this point?
Read as a salty "I don't like it" :)
The last two albums are very artificial to me, Cherry Bomb was the only time I really enjoyed him as a musician (mostly trying to ignore lyrics, if that isn't obvious).
But what is the alternative? Are artists not allowed to make music anymore after they decide to stop making problematic art? In Tylers case, he's pretty candid about how he used to be an edgelord and that he no longer identifies with the music he wrote a decade ago.
Besides it being a really solid album on it's own merit, this is a standard PR move that he took advantage of.It's not as though the album was written in order to surprise everyone, it was an organic change of form. It's the reason why a lot of artists get a lot of flak from making big changes in sound when they don't pull it off correctly. He took a leap with a new sound and it worked, there's no real valid criticism there. Just kind of sounds like his brand of music isn't for you.
I said you're allowed to grow as a person, but you shouldn't get brownie points for doing so as if you were never the worse person you used to be.
There's a massive gradient between "being allowed to move on" and "getting all your previous work re-interpreted as tackling your own sexuality and wrestling with it, earning you even more goodwill than if you just were never a homophobe." I'm fine with the former, but I loathe the spectacle and free attention earned by doing a bunch of shitty things and later moving in a different direction and kinda sorta denouncing it all. Excuse me, but I think
not being a piece of shit > being a reformed piece of shit.It being a standard PR move...sure? I don't see how that makes it any more right.
Any dislike of any piece of art is just that. That's not super meaningful.
I just don't see where you are getting that from. I've never seen anyone give him a pass for his lyrics on his first couple releases. What I have seen is that looking back, in context of him being a young rapper, they make a little more sense and clearly don't reflect on his newer works (possibly like some other artists trying to bury their iffy past.) If he still played and acknowledge those songs, I could see it being an issue, but he has left all that behind.
The album was first and foremost a thoughtful and genuinely good piece of music. It just also happened to be a departure from his usual sound and this was used to his advantage. I don't think it makes it more right but your original comment paints the album as if it didn't deserve the critical praise it received.
Thats great and I agree but this is such an easy thing to say with the foresite of not being a 15 year old. I just think it's silly to lose your mind over the ignorant ramblings of a teenager.
I have absolutely seen plenty of people going back and reading those old lyrics differently, but I'll say that that hasn't been the dominant narrative. What has, though, has been the shift from the edgelord image to a soft friendly gay man, that was overwhelmingly the source of conversation around Flower Boy. Most major reviews were nearly entirely focused on it, that was unquestionably the major point of interest. I don't think you should get to leverage your status as "known shitty person" to get buzz when you change. There's no way you can believe it'd be as much of a story if he was never Mr. Homophobe.
I don't think it did, and I disagree with the things you like about it. That's cool, whatever. My point isn't that much about the quality of the music, I'd feel the same if I liked it. Hell, I did like a couple tracks for a while and thought it was acceptable, it's just too shallow to hold up...and I felt the same.
I care about hip hop, and I care about how he contributed to making it a shittier thing to be into for people like me. If that and thinking he shouldn't be able to spin that for his own benefit means I'm "losing my mind," then so be it. Also, Tyler was still doing this when he was ~24...I think you can know better by then.
He's 28 years old. When he burst onto the scene with Odd Future, he was what, 18? Idk how much of 2010 you remember, but dead baby jokes were weirdly popular back then. Only, it wasn't weird at the time. Being crude and offensive for the sake of being crude and offensive was very much a part of the comedic zeitgeist for young men (sadly it still is).
I guess I just don't see why he has to be apologetic. Actions not words, right? He's continuing to make music and you can literally track his growth through it. Igor makes two mature, thoughtful, artistic contributions to his discography in a row. Is that not growth? Maybe if you liked his music more, you'd be more sympathetic to his character and the way it's reflected in his work?
I would appreciate if he was a little more apologetic, but I don't really place most of my frustration right now on him. I think the majority of the issue is with music publications and fans who have put him on a pedestal for being a reformed dick.
I'm not sure I agree with your point about 2010 or the acceptability of his actions at the time, but honestly I don't think it matters much for what I'm saying. He can move forward and I don't think he has to be defined by that forever. What I do hate is that it's a boost to his career and he gets to gain socially and financially by having his status as a former asshole make his turn to a not-asshole be more novel than if he was just always a cool guy.
I want to respond to this, but I'm not sure how much is directed at what I'm saying and how much is directed toward the article.
I guess I'm less interested in defending the article itself than what I took from it and my own thoughts, which have more to do with how Tyler has been embraced in recent years than how he was originally "allowed to happen." (and to be fair, X and 6ix9ine are entirely different levels of shit that I would never say we should move past as we have with Tyler) How we respond to the reformed assholes of the world is a valid thing to consider, and I think Tyler has been a mishandled case.