Everything I learn about octopuses makes them more fascinating, and just a little bit scarier. If they're dreaming, does that mean they're processing memories? They do remember things. Is this...
Everything I learn about octopuses makes them more fascinating, and just a little bit scarier.
If they're dreaming, does that mean they're processing memories? They do remember things. Is this part of that process? How intelligent are they?
We may not need to go to space to encounter an alien intelligence...
If you are interested in this, might I suggest also checking out The Mountain In The Sea by Ray Nayler? It's a speculative fiction novel published last year that explores this exact premise of...
If you are interested in this, might I suggest also checking out The Mountain In The Sea by Ray Nayler? It's a speculative fiction novel published last year that explores this exact premise of octopi intelligence.
Last year I actually decided to remove octopi from my diet. After reading articles such as these, it started feeling rather wrong to continue eating them.
EDIT: Funny, I remember reading the exact same things in these comments (lack of family structures, short life spans, octopi RNA editing) inside the book too!
I've added it to my Kobo wishlist. It doesn't look quite like my cup of tea, but I'll give it a try for the sake of the octopuses. Thanks! Yeah, I stopped eating calamari a few years ago.
If you are interested in this, might I suggest also checking out The Mountain In The Sea by Ray Nayler?
I've added it to my Kobo wishlist. It doesn't look quite like my cup of tea, but I'll give it a try for the sake of the octopuses.
Thanks!
Last year I actually decided to remove octopi from my diet.
Can you explain your reasoning behind this decision? It sounds like intelligence is the main factor for you, but I don't understand why. To me, the main reason not to harm anyone is because they...
Can you explain your reasoning behind this decision? It sounds like intelligence is the main factor for you, but I don't understand why.
To me, the main reason not to harm anyone is because they don't want to be harmed. If I punch a person, it doesn't matter if the victim is a brilliant scientist, a formerly brilliant scientist who is now suffering from severe dementia or someone who is mentally disabled since birth. In each case, the same ethical and judicial laws apply. (Replace "punch" with "eat" and that's still true.)
It seems we, humanity, have decided that we want to prevent suffering and therefore punish those who inflict it, unless we're talking about non-humans.
(I'm sorry if I started a philosophical debate. :P)
I cannot say that it's a rational decision, but I guess it's the combination of greater sympathy for a creature I see as being more aware of itself (sapience) and the desire to not cause suffering...
I cannot say that it's a rational decision, but I guess it's the combination of greater sympathy for a creature I see as being more aware of itself (sapience) and the desire to not cause suffering you mentioned. I still eat meat. Though I know that causes animals to suffer, that hasn't been enough for me to break the habit even when I think it's morally wrong.
Your latter sentence really summarizes the quandary about extinguishing lives. I also eat meat, and understand that it causes suffering. While it might just be mental salve, I think it's important...
Your latter sentence really summarizes the quandary about extinguishing lives. I also eat meat, and understand that it causes suffering. While it might just be mental salve, I think it's important to recognize these things. That our choices have consequences, and in this case we're not the ones suffering the consequences. I don't intend to stop eating octopus or meat in general, but I will be more grateful for the sacrifice that had to be made for my meal.
I have long been captured by the idea of various cultures expressing gratitude for the lives that they must take for their meal(s). Since then, I have taken steps to get closer to my food. To obtain it in whole form so that I must confront the reality that the piece of meat that I purchased, neatly presented on its Styrofoam package, was once a living creature. That in breaking it down, I see how analogous our bodies are, how we're really not that different.
My goal, that I grow ever closer to, is to hunt and kill an animal. To intimately experience the moment that I must choose to end a life for my benefit. I wonder to myself, what will go through my head in that moment. Or if I had to say, catch a chicken and dispatch it.
Personal ethics can be simultaneously rigid yet amorphous.
Oh boy... just before I'm about to click post: Re-reading my post, I realize this might make me sound like a psychopath. I promise I'm not. I am perhaps over romanticizing things, but in the spirit of connection with animals, not "I want to murder things, look how similar they are to humans".
I don't think you're alone in that sentiment. I've seen it brought up before in reddit discussions related to this topic. Like you said, it's a way to at least recognize the cost of enjoying meat....
I don't think you're alone in that sentiment. I've seen it brought up before in reddit discussions related to this topic. Like you said, it's a way to at least recognize the cost of enjoying meat.
Eating meat isn't inherently wrong to me. In circumstances like famine or poverty you might not have another option. For me though it's mostly a luxury, so that makes it a selfish matter.
Right, my stance is hardly original and I'm glad it's not. By most metrics, the meat consumption in the western world is insane. It's good to know where your food comes from and what it takes to...
I don't think you're alone in that sentiment. I've seen it brought up before in reddit discussions related to this topic.
Right, my stance is hardly original and I'm glad it's not. By most metrics, the meat consumption in the western world is insane. It's good to know where your food comes from and what it takes to enable it.
Like you said, it's a way to at least recognize the cost of enjoying meat.
Yes, even though the recognition might be partly irrational due to the pseudo-spirituality it represents; yet, I still am drawn to it.
At the end of the day, like most things in life, do what works for you!
For me though it's mostly a luxury, so that makes it a selfish matter.
An important distinction, and something that more people should at least contemplate. I'm glad you're making a decision, rather than just assuming a default pos
They do have one big disadvantage over us - their parents aren't around to raise the young, nor do they seem to have any other social structures that could replace a family unit. So no...
They do have one big disadvantage over us - their parents aren't around to raise the young, nor do they seem to have any other social structures that could replace a family unit. So no transmission of information across generations.
Oh, I know. I've often speculated what would happen if octopuses suddenly acquired (or were given...) a genetic mutation which allowed an octopus mother to survive past the birth of her eggs, and...
Oh, I know. I've often speculated what would happen if octopuses suddenly acquired (or were given...) a genetic mutation which allowed an octopus mother to survive past the birth of her eggs, and therefore to teach her offspring what she had learned. And that's one reason I think octopuses are a little bit scary! ;)
I believe this has been experimented with, and IIRC the conclusion was that if an octopus doesn't mate, they generally do live a bit longer and just go about their business, but the difference...
I believe this has been experimented with, and IIRC the conclusion was that if an octopus doesn't mate, they generally do live a bit longer and just go about their business, but the difference isn't that big.
I wasn't talking about just having an octopus living longer in isolation. Octopuses die after reproducing. They don't live to interact with their offspring. But... what if octopuses didn't die...
I wasn't talking about just having an octopus living longer in isolation.
Octopuses die after reproducing. They don't live to interact with their offspring. But... what if octopuses didn't die after reproducing? What if an octopus mother lived long enough to actually raise her offspring, and teach them what she had learned in her life? What if they could pass on knowledge from generation to generation?
There's a whole body of study around genetic knowledge that we don't understand. Sharks don't raise their young, but they young have migration patterns to food sources they would never have...
There's a whole body of study around genetic knowledge that we don't understand. Sharks don't raise their young, but they young have migration patterns to food sources they would never have experienced that extend across millennia. Birds raise their young until they can fly on their own, but they instinctively know how to build a nest, migrate huge distances they've never been to prior, etc. Even if raised in sound-proof isolation, the suboscine birds can give the usual call for their species with no formal training or learning from others. Ungulates know how to walk within hours of birth.
With their obvious intelligence, multiple brains, and unique phisology, it's entirely possible that cephalopods (and other animals in general) genetically inherit knowledge instead of learning it through nurture as we see in most mammals.
My daughter is 6 months now. It is absolutely incredible observing her development and how she'll spontaneously know to do certain things. I did some reading on this earlier on, and it was...
My daughter is 6 months now. It is absolutely incredible observing her development and how she'll spontaneously know to do certain things. I did some reading on this earlier on, and it was fascinating.
Cephalopods are extremely intelligent. Many species in the phylum have traded fast evolution for the ability to essentially edit their RNA on the fly. To put it in perspective, pretty much every...
Cephalopods are extremely intelligent.
Many species in the phylum have traded fast evolution for the ability to essentially edit their RNA on the fly. To put it in perspective, pretty much every other life form has only a handful of RNA edits in their entire lives.
Everything I learn about octopuses makes them more fascinating, and just a little bit scarier.
If they're dreaming, does that mean they're processing memories? They do remember things. Is this part of that process? How intelligent are they?
We may not need to go to space to encounter an alien intelligence...
If you are interested in this, might I suggest also checking out The Mountain In The Sea by Ray Nayler? It's a speculative fiction novel published last year that explores this exact premise of octopi intelligence.
Last year I actually decided to remove octopi from my diet. After reading articles such as these, it started feeling rather wrong to continue eating them.
EDIT: Funny, I remember reading the exact same things in these comments (lack of family structures, short life spans, octopi RNA editing) inside the book too!
If you long for a sci-fi twist on the concept, I might suggest the latter half of the Children of Time series, by Adrian Tchaikovsky!
I've added it to my Kobo wishlist. It doesn't look quite like my cup of tea, but I'll give it a try for the sake of the octopuses.
Thanks!
Yeah, I stopped eating calamari a few years ago.
Can you explain your reasoning behind this decision? It sounds like intelligence is the main factor for you, but I don't understand why.
To me, the main reason not to harm anyone is because they don't want to be harmed. If I punch a person, it doesn't matter if the victim is a brilliant scientist, a formerly brilliant scientist who is now suffering from severe dementia or someone who is mentally disabled since birth. In each case, the same ethical and judicial laws apply. (Replace "punch" with "eat" and that's still true.)
It seems we, humanity, have decided that we want to prevent suffering and therefore punish those who inflict it, unless we're talking about non-humans.
(I'm sorry if I started a philosophical debate. :P)
I cannot say that it's a rational decision, but I guess it's the combination of greater sympathy for a creature I see as being more aware of itself (sapience) and the desire to not cause suffering you mentioned. I still eat meat. Though I know that causes animals to suffer, that hasn't been enough for me to break the habit even when I think it's morally wrong.
Your latter sentence really summarizes the quandary about extinguishing lives. I also eat meat, and understand that it causes suffering. While it might just be mental salve, I think it's important to recognize these things. That our choices have consequences, and in this case we're not the ones suffering the consequences. I don't intend to stop eating octopus or meat in general, but I will be more grateful for the sacrifice that had to be made for my meal.
I have long been captured by the idea of various cultures expressing gratitude for the lives that they must take for their meal(s). Since then, I have taken steps to get closer to my food. To obtain it in whole form so that I must confront the reality that the piece of meat that I purchased, neatly presented on its Styrofoam package, was once a living creature. That in breaking it down, I see how analogous our bodies are, how we're really not that different.
My goal, that I grow ever closer to, is to hunt and kill an animal. To intimately experience the moment that I must choose to end a life for my benefit. I wonder to myself, what will go through my head in that moment. Or if I had to say, catch a chicken and dispatch it.
Personal ethics can be simultaneously rigid yet amorphous.
Oh boy... just before I'm about to click post: Re-reading my post, I realize this might make me sound like a psychopath. I promise I'm not. I am perhaps over romanticizing things, but in the spirit of connection with animals, not "I want to murder things, look how similar they are to humans".
I don't think you're alone in that sentiment. I've seen it brought up before in reddit discussions related to this topic. Like you said, it's a way to at least recognize the cost of enjoying meat.
Eating meat isn't inherently wrong to me. In circumstances like famine or poverty you might not have another option. For me though it's mostly a luxury, so that makes it a selfish matter.
Right, my stance is hardly original and I'm glad it's not. By most metrics, the meat consumption in the western world is insane. It's good to know where your food comes from and what it takes to enable it.
Yes, even though the recognition might be partly irrational due to the pseudo-spirituality it represents; yet, I still am drawn to it.
At the end of the day, like most things in life, do what works for you!
An important distinction, and something that more people should at least contemplate. I'm glad you're making a decision, rather than just assuming a default pos
They do have one big disadvantage over us - their parents aren't around to raise the young, nor do they seem to have any other social structures that could replace a family unit. So no transmission of information across generations.
Oh, I know. I've often speculated what would happen if octopuses suddenly acquired (or were given...) a genetic mutation which allowed an octopus mother to survive past the birth of her eggs, and therefore to teach her offspring what she had learned. And that's one reason I think octopuses are a little bit scary! ;)
I believe this has been experimented with, and IIRC the conclusion was that if an octopus doesn't mate, they generally do live a bit longer and just go about their business, but the difference isn't that big.
I wasn't talking about just having an octopus living longer in isolation.
Octopuses die after reproducing. They don't live to interact with their offspring. But... what if octopuses didn't die after reproducing? What if an octopus mother lived long enough to actually raise her offspring, and teach them what she had learned in her life? What if they could pass on knowledge from generation to generation?
There's a whole body of study around genetic knowledge that we don't understand. Sharks don't raise their young, but they young have migration patterns to food sources they would never have experienced that extend across millennia. Birds raise their young until they can fly on their own, but they instinctively know how to build a nest, migrate huge distances they've never been to prior, etc. Even if raised in sound-proof isolation, the suboscine birds can give the usual call for their species with no formal training or learning from others. Ungulates know how to walk within hours of birth.
With their obvious intelligence, multiple brains, and unique phisology, it's entirely possible that cephalopods (and other animals in general) genetically inherit knowledge instead of learning it through nurture as we see in most mammals.
My daughter is 6 months now. It is absolutely incredible observing her development and how she'll spontaneously know to do certain things. I did some reading on this earlier on, and it was fascinating.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_reflexes
But even beyond that, there are so many little things that she does that are clearly "intelligent", yet she could not have learned from us.
Cephalopods are extremely intelligent.
Many species in the phylum have traded fast evolution for the ability to essentially edit their RNA on the fly. To put it in perspective, pretty much every other life form has only a handful of RNA edits in their entire lives.
Everything that eats, sleeps. Even spiders. Even, to some extent, jellyfish.
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