This is the most important bit: This does create a systematic disadvantage, especially to smaller shops versus a major chain such as this. Smaller shops would not be able to compete, and would...
This is the most important bit:
The union was also concerned about potential “knock-on effects” for workers in traditional stores. Tegut’s rivals could soon start lobbying for further liberalisation of Sunday shopping rules, a Verdi official said.
This does create a systematic disadvantage, especially to smaller shops versus a major chain such as this. Smaller shops would not be able to compete, and would rally support (by managers, executives) against the worker-focused day of rest. Makes sense to me.
This also relinquished the needs to potentially have technicians or support staff on immediate standby to service, because there will be moments when that is required even if Tegut believes (publicly) that they won't.
I don't really see what the issue for worker's rights is when it comes to working on Sunday? There are lots of real issues I can think of (e.g. shift work, excessive working hours, overtime not...
I don't really see what the issue for worker's rights is when it comes to working on Sunday? There are lots of real issues I can think of (e.g. shift work, excessive working hours, overtime not being properly compensated, etc) but "the bible says Sunday is a day of rest" doesn't really seem like a valid basis for the state to make policy.
No but the 40h work week and the associated weekend definitely do make a valid basis. Salaries are higher for weekend shifts. Smaller shops can't compete with pricing if you have to pay your...
No but the 40h work week and the associated weekend definitely do make a valid basis.
Salaries are higher for weekend shifts. Smaller shops can't compete with pricing if you have to pay your workers 200%, and one-man mom and pop shops really can't work 7 days a week. But your Aldi scoffs at both.
I live in the Netherlands where shops can open on Sunday if they want to, and I find myself unreasonably annoyed when I'm in Germany and the shops are closed.
Two things: On the one hand we see in the Netherlands that competition is viable on Sundays too, and on the other hand it makes you expect stores are open forcing smaller shops to compete or die.
I feel both sides and I do not know where I stand on this.
I had this very discussion just yesterday with a friend who works in a relatively small pet shop, and I was always of two minds about it. Curiously, she was entirely for opening on Sundays. As the...
I had this very discussion just yesterday with a friend who works in a relatively small pet shop, and I was always of two minds about it.
Curiously, she was entirely for opening on Sundays. As the person negatively affected versus large chains. Her reasoning was entirely practical, in particular that she wants the rush on Saturday to be more spread out as that is the biggest problem for working Saturdays in her view.
I think the important factor when it comes to not disadvantaging small shops is ensuring equity in this case. Either everyone is open or no one is open, but no situation where small shops must...
I think the important factor when it comes to not disadvantaging small shops is ensuring equity in this case. Either everyone is open or no one is open, but no situation where small shops must stay closed but large stores can open. Afaik in Germany there's no requirement to pay more for work on the weekends (even on Sundays, if you work in an industry where you're allowed to work on Sundays at all) as long as it isn't overtime, so I suspect the wage difference described above is a non-issue regardless.
Interestingly, Norway sort of has a mirror-image of this -- their "stores are closed on Sundays" law doesn't apply to stores below a certain size (iirc size in terms of their literal physical footprint). Of course, the result was that many large grocery stores would build small "Sunday stores" attached to the larger main building.
Oh so that's the reason for the attached stores. I was wondering about those, but reflexively I never had to go for groceries on Sundays anyways.
Interestingly, Norway sort of has a mirror-image of this -- their "stores are closed on Sundays" law doesn't apply to stores below a certain size (iirc size in terms of their literal physical footprint). Of course, the result was that many large grocery stores would build small "Sunday stores" attached to the larger main building.
Oh so that's the reason for the attached stores. I was wondering about those, but reflexively I never had to go for groceries on Sundays anyways.
If you knew there was a shop open every day of the week a little bit father than usual, you would likely end up going to that shop every day of the week just because of your expectactive normality...
If you knew there was a shop open every day of the week a little bit father than usual, you would likely end up going to that shop every day of the week just because of your expectactive normality of every other day going (better to go to one place than two or three mentally); this additionally provides a source of higher-than-usual revenue for the major chains that the smaller shops would not be able to attain, allowing the higher chains to further squash smaller competition.
I get that, I'm wondering why small shops wouldn't open on Sundays too. Is it exponentially more expensive for small stores, staff wages presumably take a bigger cut in small stores, but is it so...
I get that, I'm wondering why small shops wouldn't open on Sundays too. Is it exponentially more expensive for small stores, staff wages presumably take a bigger cut in small stores, but is it so big that the majority won't even be able to break even -- which would be enough to be worth as you said it's habit forming.
There's been a lot of revisions to it, but Germany passed a law in 1956 regulating when stores can be open, and with some exceptions like gas stations, stores can't be open on Sunday.
There's been a lot of revisions to it, but Germany passed a law in 1956 regulating when stores can be open, and with some exceptions like gas stations, stores can't be open on Sunday.
I thought this conversation kinda tied around them allowing stores to be open on Sunday since that was part of the quote from the article. Edit. Now rereading, maybe I misunderstood the original...
I thought this conversation kinda tied around them allowing stores to be open on Sunday since that was part of the quote from the article.
Edit. Now rereading, maybe I misunderstood the original comment. They were probably saying the legislation as is is unfair.
Oh, you're talking about revising the law so that everyone can be open on Sundays. I don't think that would put anyone at a disadvantage, strictly financially speaking, the disadvantage they're...
Oh, you're talking about revising the law so that everyone can be open on Sundays.
I don't think that would put anyone at a disadvantage, strictly financially speaking, the disadvantage they're talking about is if the automated store could be open on Sundays when manned stores couldn't.
What’s the purpose of that law? It sounds like some sort of compulsory sabbath. I’m sure there are a lot of benefits to having a guaranteed day off every week, allowing workers more leisure time...
What’s the purpose of that law? It sounds like some sort of compulsory sabbath.
I’m sure there are a lot of benefits to having a guaranteed day off every week, allowing workers more leisure time and a bit of breathing room in their day-to-day schedule. One doesn’t have to be religious to agree that practicing sabbath can be beneficial in lots of ways. I just don’t see where the state has any business mandating it for everyone.
I assume, especially since this has been on the books for several generations, that it’s a fully pervasive part of German culture at this point. Seems like the kind of thing that Germans would defend because it’s a normal (perhaps cherished) feature of life in that country, and they’d say that I as an outsider don’t understand or am speaking out of turn. And that’s probably right.
But I still think that just as a matter of principle, this sort of legislation doesn’t have any place in modern liberal democracies.
So sometimes even when Sunday closure laws start off as religious based, there's a benefit to employees - that they get a guaranteed day off each week. If you open up every day of the week,...
Exemplary
So sometimes even when Sunday closure laws start off as religious based, there's a benefit to employees - that they get a guaranteed day off each week. If you open up every day of the week, someone has to work those hours. But businesses will feel like they have to keep up to compete.
In the US it took COVID to really change the Black Friday shopping creep that had pushed into Thanksgiving afternoon because everyone wanted to open just a little earlier than everyone else.
Some liquor stores will lobby against changing blue laws banning alcohol sales on Sundays because people will still tend to buy the same alcohol just on one of the other six days. If it can be sold on Sunday they have to be open if even one other store opens. If it can't be sold on Sunday, none of them are open and they can all save on labor and utilities.
So if one store is open (because it can dodge labor laws by robots), then all the other stores would feel the need to be open. But it's really not in any of their best interest to be. It is however in the employees best interest to have a guaranteed day off. That day is Sunday due to local cultural reasons.
This is true, but given that Sunday is one of only two days off people who work 9-5 jobs get, it ends up making Saturday absolute chaos at the grocery store because everyone's trying to get their...
So sometimes even when Sunday closure laws start off as religious based, there's a benefit to employees - that they get a guaranteed day off each week.
This is true, but given that Sunday is one of only two days off people who work 9-5 jobs get, it ends up making Saturday absolute chaos at the grocery store because everyone's trying to get their shopping done on the only day they have off where the store's open.
I think foreigners (especially Americans) often overblow how big a deal the Sundays-off thing actually is -- it's easy enough to live with -- but I do find it frustrating. I think a far better policy would be to mandate that every business be closed at least one day a week, but not to mandate which one it is. I think most places would probably stick to Sunday, but it would allow more flexibility for people who run out of toilet paper on Sunday and need to urgently pick some up. This would also be something you could apply to businesses that currently are open on Sundays, like restaurants (which already sometimes close on a given weekday), ensuring that a larger class of workers get the benefit of a guaranteed day off.
Of course this would never happen, but that's my little dream.
I do get why it would be absolutely frustrating. I've felt that way since COVID really altered many of our late night or 24 hour grocery options. On holidays there's generally one pharmacy in town...
I do get why it would be absolutely frustrating. I've felt that way since COVID really altered many of our late night or 24 hour grocery options. On holidays there's generally one pharmacy in town open and they will inevitably have a line of folks not just buying medicine but also instant potatoes or bread or something.
I'm not gonna say which method is the best, just that there are some reasons why the status quo doesn't get changed. And it's nice to have some worker protections too.
Oh yeah worker protections here make the US look like a joke. And I get why Germans are defensive here, because there are often a bunch of uninformed Americans waltzing in and whining about how...
Oh yeah worker protections here make the US look like a joke. And I get why Germans are defensive here, because there are often a bunch of uninformed Americans waltzing in and whining about how they do everything wrong. Even if the Sundays thing can be annoying sometimes, it's not even close to being one of the actual problems I have with Germany. It's a minor nuisance at most. And German worker protections are genuinely way better -- it's one of the major reasons I moved here.
But what principle are you coming from? Do you think the state shouldn't have the power to mandate a day off for nonessential businesses, or that it shouldn't have religious justification?
But what principle are you coming from? Do you think the state shouldn't have the power to mandate a day off for nonessential businesses, or that it shouldn't have religious justification?
The former. How people choose to spend their time should not be the purview of the government. A population is a tapestry of different views and traditions regarding work and rest. This isn’t...
The former. How people choose to spend their time should not be the purview of the government. A population is a tapestry of different views and traditions regarding work and rest. This isn’t something that should be unilaterally imposed on everyone.
I can't speak on behalf of the German population, being one person and not being German and all, but at least I'd rather the government tell me Sunday is my day off than my employer telling me...
I can't speak on behalf of the German population, being one person and not being German and all, but at least I'd rather the government tell me Sunday is my day off than my employer telling me Sunday is my late day.
Because if the government isn't telling you to take a day off, your boss is telling you to go to work.
This is the most important bit:
This does create a systematic disadvantage, especially to smaller shops versus a major chain such as this. Smaller shops would not be able to compete, and would rally support (by managers, executives) against the worker-focused day of rest. Makes sense to me.
This also relinquished the needs to potentially have technicians or support staff on immediate standby to service, because there will be moments when that is required even if Tegut believes (publicly) that they won't.
I don't really see what the issue for worker's rights is when it comes to working on Sunday? There are lots of real issues I can think of (e.g. shift work, excessive working hours, overtime not being properly compensated, etc) but "the bible says Sunday is a day of rest" doesn't really seem like a valid basis for the state to make policy.
No but the 40h work week and the associated weekend definitely do make a valid basis.
Salaries are higher for weekend shifts. Smaller shops can't compete with pricing if you have to pay your workers 200%, and one-man mom and pop shops really can't work 7 days a week. But your Aldi scoffs at both.
I live in the Netherlands where shops can open on Sunday if they want to, and I find myself unreasonably annoyed when I'm in Germany and the shops are closed.
Two things: On the one hand we see in the Netherlands that competition is viable on Sundays too, and on the other hand it makes you expect stores are open forcing smaller shops to compete or die.
I feel both sides and I do not know where I stand on this.
I had this very discussion just yesterday with a friend who works in a relatively small pet shop, and I was always of two minds about it.
Curiously, she was entirely for opening on Sundays. As the person negatively affected versus large chains. Her reasoning was entirely practical, in particular that she wants the rush on Saturday to be more spread out as that is the biggest problem for working Saturdays in her view.
I think the important factor when it comes to not disadvantaging small shops is ensuring equity in this case. Either everyone is open or no one is open, but no situation where small shops must stay closed but large stores can open. Afaik in Germany there's no requirement to pay more for work on the weekends (even on Sundays, if you work in an industry where you're allowed to work on Sundays at all) as long as it isn't overtime, so I suspect the wage difference described above is a non-issue regardless.
Interestingly, Norway sort of has a mirror-image of this -- their "stores are closed on Sundays" law doesn't apply to stores below a certain size (iirc size in terms of their literal physical footprint). Of course, the result was that many large grocery stores would build small "Sunday stores" attached to the larger main building.
Oh so that's the reason for the attached stores. I was wondering about those, but reflexively I never had to go for groceries on Sundays anyways.
I mean the law was enacted like 70 years ago.
What's the systematic disadvantage when it comes to Sundays especially?
If you knew there was a shop open every day of the week a little bit father than usual, you would likely end up going to that shop every day of the week just because of your expectactive normality of every other day going (better to go to one place than two or three mentally); this additionally provides a source of higher-than-usual revenue for the major chains that the smaller shops would not be able to attain, allowing the higher chains to further squash smaller competition.
I get that, I'm wondering why small shops wouldn't open on Sundays too. Is it exponentially more expensive for small stores, staff wages presumably take a bigger cut in small stores, but is it so big that the majority won't even be able to break even -- which would be enough to be worth as you said it's habit forming.
There's been a lot of revisions to it, but Germany passed a law in 1956 regulating when stores can be open, and with some exceptions like gas stations, stores can't be open on Sunday.
I thought this conversation kinda tied around them allowing stores to be open on Sunday since that was part of the quote from the article.
Edit. Now rereading, maybe I misunderstood the original comment. They were probably saying the legislation as is is unfair.
Oh, you're talking about revising the law so that everyone can be open on Sundays.
I don't think that would put anyone at a disadvantage, strictly financially speaking, the disadvantage they're talking about is if the automated store could be open on Sundays when manned stores couldn't.
What’s the purpose of that law? It sounds like some sort of compulsory sabbath.
I’m sure there are a lot of benefits to having a guaranteed day off every week, allowing workers more leisure time and a bit of breathing room in their day-to-day schedule. One doesn’t have to be religious to agree that practicing sabbath can be beneficial in lots of ways. I just don’t see where the state has any business mandating it for everyone.
I assume, especially since this has been on the books for several generations, that it’s a fully pervasive part of German culture at this point. Seems like the kind of thing that Germans would defend because it’s a normal (perhaps cherished) feature of life in that country, and they’d say that I as an outsider don’t understand or am speaking out of turn. And that’s probably right.
But I still think that just as a matter of principle, this sort of legislation doesn’t have any place in modern liberal democracies.
So sometimes even when Sunday closure laws start off as religious based, there's a benefit to employees - that they get a guaranteed day off each week. If you open up every day of the week, someone has to work those hours. But businesses will feel like they have to keep up to compete.
In the US it took COVID to really change the Black Friday shopping creep that had pushed into Thanksgiving afternoon because everyone wanted to open just a little earlier than everyone else.
Some liquor stores will lobby against changing blue laws banning alcohol sales on Sundays because people will still tend to buy the same alcohol just on one of the other six days. If it can be sold on Sunday they have to be open if even one other store opens. If it can't be sold on Sunday, none of them are open and they can all save on labor and utilities.
So if one store is open (because it can dodge labor laws by robots), then all the other stores would feel the need to be open. But it's really not in any of their best interest to be. It is however in the employees best interest to have a guaranteed day off. That day is Sunday due to local cultural reasons.
This is true, but given that Sunday is one of only two days off people who work 9-5 jobs get, it ends up making Saturday absolute chaos at the grocery store because everyone's trying to get their shopping done on the only day they have off where the store's open.
I think foreigners (especially Americans) often overblow how big a deal the Sundays-off thing actually is -- it's easy enough to live with -- but I do find it frustrating. I think a far better policy would be to mandate that every business be closed at least one day a week, but not to mandate which one it is. I think most places would probably stick to Sunday, but it would allow more flexibility for people who run out of toilet paper on Sunday and need to urgently pick some up. This would also be something you could apply to businesses that currently are open on Sundays, like restaurants (which already sometimes close on a given weekday), ensuring that a larger class of workers get the benefit of a guaranteed day off.
Of course this would never happen, but that's my little dream.
I do get why it would be absolutely frustrating. I've felt that way since COVID really altered many of our late night or 24 hour grocery options. On holidays there's generally one pharmacy in town open and they will inevitably have a line of folks not just buying medicine but also instant potatoes or bread or something.
I'm not gonna say which method is the best, just that there are some reasons why the status quo doesn't get changed. And it's nice to have some worker protections too.
Oh yeah worker protections here make the US look like a joke. And I get why Germans are defensive here, because there are often a bunch of uninformed Americans waltzing in and whining about how they do everything wrong. Even if the Sundays thing can be annoying sometimes, it's not even close to being one of the actual problems I have with Germany. It's a minor nuisance at most. And German worker protections are genuinely way better -- it's one of the major reasons I moved here.
But what principle are you coming from? Do you think the state shouldn't have the power to mandate a day off for nonessential businesses, or that it shouldn't have religious justification?
The former. How people choose to spend their time should not be the purview of the government. A population is a tapestry of different views and traditions regarding work and rest. This isn’t something that should be unilaterally imposed on everyone.
I can't speak on behalf of the German population, being one person and not being German and all, but at least I'd rather the government tell me Sunday is my day off than my employer telling me Sunday is my late day.
Because if the government isn't telling you to take a day off, your boss is telling you to go to work.
You say "choose" but there's no choice.
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