286437714's recent activity
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Comment on What change would make you quit Tildes? in ~tildes
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Comment on Do we want to stop all crime? in ~society
286437714 LinkI know I just wrote another comment to you about the Culture, but I think that approach seems best to me in answer to your thought experiment. The short answer is I'd love to stop all crime in the...I know I just wrote another comment to you about the Culture, but I think that approach seems best to me in answer to your thought experiment. The short answer is I'd love to stop all crime in the way that the Culture does it, by having a social definition of crime and providing safety for individuals who feel threatened and ensuring that crime, on the most part, could never be committed.
The long answer for the Culture universe's philosophical approach I suppose requies a lot more background.
There are no codified laws, no codified definition of crime, but there is always someone who is instantly available to help you if you feel unsafe or that a boundary you have is being crossed.A couple of examples from the Culture books spring to mind:
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When the protagonist of The Player of Games is worried that he is being 'illegally' (by convention) surveilled and blackmailed, he's able to get to assistance of three god-like machine intelligences to dispatch a team of technical surveillance countermeasures drones to sweep and harden his residence, at least giving him a sense of safety.
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Multiple examples of characters calling for an emergency displace (teleport) when something dangerous is about to happen. Sometimes even about to happen to them by another person.
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Slap-drones. High risk, violent individuals who either have killed someone or want to kill someone are given essentially a smarter-than-human, sentient drone companion that doesn't imprison then, but stops them from doing any further harm. Slap-drones immobilize them if they attempt to hurt people, throw a protective field around them if someone attempts to hurt them in retaliation, etc. The book where this is most clearly demonstrated is Surface Detail.
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One of the funniest examples is I guess the lack of occupational health and safety rules, but the safeguards against harm for individuals are there, if they choose to use them. There are many examples in the books of humans (with mindstate backups, or without) doing extreme and dangerous activities just for fun that have no oversight beyond an individual contacting their Hub mind and saying 'get me out of here'. The funniest example is the lava-rafting scene from Look To Windward, where a bunch of humans decide to build boats out of flimsy alloy and travel down lava tubes. The example we're shown is a bunch of individuals, some on drugs, debating whether it's actually fun or whether they should just teleport out of there. One is so high he thinks it's a simulation, which could endanger the others. But because nobody actually calls for the hub Mind, and because this isn't something that the hub Mind built and maintains, it's allowed to... play out. I don't think it results in any body-deaths, but there is serious injury.
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The most interesting example is the camping and hunting sequence from Inversions, when they deliberately leave their terminals behind, and with them, the ability to be instantly zapped out of harm or rescued by a drone team. You have to choose to let your own thrill seeking hurt or kill you. Some people see this as stupid bravado, others see it as the only real way to experience something.
It's often said that horror stories for children in the Culture start with 'they left their terminal behind' to set up the stakes of something bad happening that can't be solved by technological magic.
I think what's most interesting about the approach to crime is the approach to punishment, and this is maybe something I forgot about yesterday. Theoretically, there is no law or set of codified rules saying that Minds have to save people from danger, slap-drone violent individuals, or even put together any effort towards re-integrating an offender into society. But the Minds that are created or self-select for caring-for-humans roles do feel reputational pressure from their peers if they get it wrong.
We see this most clearly in Excession when the Quietly Confident/Sleeper Service explains why it cares so much about trying to make Dajeil Gelian back into Culture life after she commits a horrible crime against Genar Hofoen (very mild spoilers for the book). Part of it is pride - Culture Minds judge each other on how well their human populace is cared for and looked after. Part of it is machine obsession - crime and mistakes of this magnitude of are rare, and must be made right in some way. But a lot of what goes into this system of justice is 'it depends'. It's infinitely flexible because of the nature of the society. I think nothing illustrates this better than this passage from Surface Detail, when the protagonist asks what the conditions of her returning to her home would be, when the ship Mind knows she seeks to kill someone:
Lededje [human, new 'citizen' of the Culture] heard all this, but did not immediately react. “What would the condition be, then?” she asked.
Sensia [avatar of Culture General Systems Vehicle Mind] shrugged. “We have these things called slap-drones.”
“Oh yes?” She had vaguely heard of drones; they were the Culture’s equivalent of robots, though they looked more like items of luggage than anything else. Some of the tinier things floating in the great hazy view in front of them were probably drones. She already didn’t like the idea of a variety with the word “slap” in its title.
“They’re things that stop people doing something they probably ought not to do,” Sensia told her. “They … just accompany you.” She shrugged. “Sort of an escort. If it thinks you’re about to do something objectionable, like hit somebody or try to kill them or something, it’ll stop you.”
“Stop … how?”
Sensia laughed. “Well, just shout at you at first, probably. But if you persist, it’ll physically get in the way; deflect a blow or push aside a gun barrel or whatever. Ultimately, though, they’re entirely entitled to zap you; drop you unconscious if need be. No pain or damage, of course, but—”
“Who decides on this? What court?” Lededje asked. She felt suddenly hot, and was acutely aware that on her new, paler skin, a flush might show as a visible blush.
“The court of me, Lededje,” Sensia said quietly, with a small smile Lededje glanced at then looked away from.
“Really? On whose authority?”
She could hear the smile in the avatar’s voice. “On the authority of me being part of the Culture and my judgement on such matters being accepted by other parts, specifically other Minds, of the Culture. Immediately, because I can. Ultimately—”
“So, even in the Culture, might is right,” Lededje said bitterly. She started rolling her sleeves down, feeling suddenly chilled.
“Intellectual might, I suppose,” Sensia said gently. “As I was about to say, though, ultimately my right to impose a slap-drone on you comes down to the principle that it is what any set of morally responsible conscious entities, machine or human, would choose to do were they in possession of the same set of facts as I am. However, part of my moral responsibility to you is to point out that you are free to publicise your case. There are specialist news services who’d certainly be interested and – you being relatively exotic and from somewhere we have few dealings with – even the general news services might be interested too. Then there are specialist legal, procedural, jurisdictional, behavioural, diplomatic …”
She shrugged again. “And probably even philosophical interest groups who’d love to hear about something like this. You’d definitely find somebody who’d argue your case.”
“And who’d I be appealing to? You?”
“The court of informed public opinion,” Sensia said. “This is the Culture, kid. That’s the court of last resort. If I was convinced I’d made a mistake, or even if I thought I was right but everybody else appeared to think otherwise, I guess I’d reluctantly have to abandon the slap-drone thing. Being a ship Mind I’d take more notice of what other ship Minds thought, then other Minds in general, then AIs, humans, drones and others, though of course as this would be a dispute ultimately about a human’s rights I’d have to give more than usual weight to the human vote. It sounds a little complicated but there are all sorts of well-known precedents and much-used, highly respected processes involved.”
Sensia dipped forward and looked round at Lededje, trying to get her to look at her, though Lededje refused. “Look, Lededje, I don’t mean to make it sound off-putting at all; the whole process would seem incredibly quick and informal to somebody with your background and understanding of the way courts and legal systems work and you wouldn’t have to stay aboard me to see it through; you could start back for home and see how things turn out while you’re en route. I say it would seem informal, but it’d be extremely thorough, and, frankly, much less likely to produce an unjust result than a similar case going through the courts you have back home. If you’d like to do this, please feel free. At any time. It’s your right. Personally I don’t think you’d have a hope in hell of getting off the slap-drone thing, but one never entirely knows with such matters and continually having seemingly obvious judgements challenged is pretty much how the system works.”
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Comment on How has inflation changed your quality of life? in ~finance
286437714 Link ParentMe too, I do an annual re-read. I always wonder what his thoughts would be on what's happened to the US and what's happening to the UK. I think the shame-based rules-and-mores works in the Culture...I used to think this. I'm a big Iain Banks fan, and in the culture books this is how society is governed. Shame based justice, more or less.
Me too, I do an annual re-read. I always wonder what his thoughts would be on what's happened to the US and what's happening to the UK.
I think the shame-based rules-and-mores works in the Culture series because people's material needs are met. The Minds solved scarcity and behaviour amongst humans and drones is governed by, as one character says, 'you won't get invited to parties.'
I think that the Empire of Azad was Bank's critique of strong, codified laws, and people with guns to enforce them. That's how I always read it, anyway, but obviously it's subjective. I'm not refuting what you're saying, I just think that the premise of Banks' anarchism in his fiction was machine intelligence that frees flawed, cruel, or aberrant humans from using those characteristics in anything other than leisure activities. They actively recruit non-Culture people with these characteristics for use by Special Circumstances.
When all possible material, social, and psychological needs are met, the stakes of screwing people over, shock, and the examples you lifted above become very small. The grifters are doing it for money so shame gets in their way. In the Culture, there are various examples of people lying, of being deliberately provocative or deceitful, and receiving mild to extreme social sanctions that aren't codified. The removal of want removed the need for guns for enforcement (in domestic society, anyway).
I think there are also a few lines in the series about how Culture humans are genofixed in a way that leaves in genetic randomness but doesn't birth serious psychopathy or really malignant personality defects. The example that springs to mind is a character from Excession who has a crippling fear of interacting with anyone - this is described as 'even rarer than physical birth abnormalities', and the individual is offered cures and treatments by Minds, but declines them to live in isolation.
That was a lot of words to say I don't think a Culture society is possible while we're pitted against each other over finite (artificially or actually) resources. I think in the study of the philosophy of science fiction this debate is referred to as 'Is technology required for fully automated luxury gay space communism, or does technoloy allow for fully automated luxury gay space communism as just one outcome?' I interpret Banks' books to be arguing for the former, insomuch as they offer an argument on the topic at all.
As far as the here-and-now, I honestly don't have any answers anymore. All of my grand ideas about society and politics and how best to organise people and economies have been overtaken by real-world events that seem to show that no safeguard, law, or use of violence can protect a society from lasting harm if a billionaire or a psychopathic political leader sets their sights on exploiting human weakness. Even the countries where I feel most at home (the nations of Scananavia and the Baltics) with robust social democracies, high social trust, community policing and a safety net for all are drifting slowly towards the extreme right wing.
I just hope Contact shows up soon. That's all I've got.
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Comment on US military launches strikes on southern Iran amid talks in Qatar in ~society
286437714 Link Parent'Y'all' is a misappellation, as I'm not American. I'm also not particularly impacted by the fuel crisis, but I don't wish for people who are actively resisting this regime to suffer any more, as...'Y'all' is a misappellation, as I'm not American. I'm also not particularly impacted by the fuel crisis, but I don't wish for people who are actively resisting this regime to suffer any more, as if that'll magically fix things. The majority of people in the US either didn't vote for Trump or didn't vote. I'd suggest that the American political system is well past stickers at this stage.
If I had a scalpel to make sure MAGA gas prices went up and those who oppose them go down, I'd do it, but that's not how it works.
Trump could blame this on Hunter Biden's laptop, or Nancy Pelosi's husband ,or tell his supporters we never had freedom of the seas and regulated oil prices, and his base would believe him. They don't care about him being a pedophile.
They can't link the consequences of their political support to higher costs of living because one of the features of the movement is revelling in anti-intellectualism - cause and effect requires critical thinking.
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Comment on US military launches strikes on southern Iran amid talks in Qatar in ~society
286437714 Link ParentI think it is mean, but maybe unintentionally. I understand the rage, but it's being directed in a cruel fashion. There is absolutely no evidence that Trump supporters are capable of tying his...- Exemplary
I think it is mean, but maybe unintentionally. I understand the rage, but it's being directed in a cruel fashion.
There is absolutely no evidence that Trump supporters are capable of tying his actions to their lives getting worse.
I don't think any amount of economic pain will make them change their mind, and 75 million Americans voted against Trump. As much as I think this regime is cruel and consistently making the world a more miserable place, collective punishment is messed up. Especially because there's been no point where Trump supporters have reconsidered their support, no matter how bad their material circumstances get.
I get the impulse, but there are quantifiably tens of millions of regularly people who voted against this and are trying to stop it through demonstrations, primary campaigns, and trying to whip their awful opposition party into shape despite massively stacked odds. Wishing them even more ill when their quality of life is famously shit is not just.
You can afford and EV and extra gas. Good for you. You're extraordinarily privileged compared to most people, even in your own country.
But surely you can empathise with the people who tried hard to stop this, and who are still trying, and are struggling to make it week-to-week. What you suggest is a blunt instrument. It'd impact Trump supporters, sure, but they don't change their minds based on life getting worse. And they only employ political violence in support of their leader.
I think I'd leave if discussion was continually upsetting to even a small minority of the Tildes userbase. Basically, bigotry disguised as 'free speech', when that 'speech' is in support of the policy platform and funding of erasing marginalized groups.
The thing that springs to mind is that thread a few months ago about the new Harry Potter show. I'm not trans, but I'm also really appreciative of the perspective our trans members bring to discussions. Especially when people are talking about trans people as if they're a hypothetical political football as opposed to, well, people.
I suppose my point is there are a million and one websites you can go to for Harry Potter discussion. There's only one Tildes - invite only, 'don't be an asshole', text-only discussion, with users relying on each other to be nice and kind people. If a sizable portion of the userbase decided that discussing pop-culture (as an example) was more important than the human rights of users, I'd be out like a weasel being fired out of a railgun.
That's only one example and I don't know how to make it more generalised, but that thread is the only one that gave me serious thought about deleting my bookmark and never coming back. Oh, also the one about 'Students are abusing disability adjustments at colleges, we didn't have that in my day, autism and ADHD aren't even disabilities, rah rah rah', but @cfabbro and I had a discussion about how frustrating and bigoted that discussion was and it made me feel like I wasn't going insane.