'Jaadugar: A Witch's Life in Mongolia' discussion
What do you guys think about the anime?
I thought it was excellent. The art is impeccable and the historical matters were handled with great care. Studio Saru is on fire lately.
In particular, I was impressed with how the story approaches Sitara's desire for revenge,
and how it relates to their suffering due to conquests by the Mongols.
On the one hand, what they did to her family was a justifiable reason for hatred and for her wanting to never acknowledge their goodwill, which was built on the bloodshed of her own people to begin with.
It's interesting how except for the first few episodes where the attrocity of the Mongol was shown explicitly, the latter episodes mostly portrayed the Mongol people in good light and any act of cruelty only implied (e.g. Ogedei was shown looking sorrowful during the subjugation of Merkit's uprising but not how he killed them, he was constantly forgiving of Toregene but the fact that they had a son despite her open contempt suggested it was likely forced). This puts us in their shoes regarding how tempting it is to forget about the horrible past and just move on.
On the other hand, the story also shows how her quest for vengance might be misguided, fueled more by tribalism than justice. She ignored any kindness the people around showed her and considered all Mongolian as enemy. She thought of the suffering that the Jin people will suffer in Tului's conquest and was willing to ignore it because they're not on her side ("to them she's just another Mongol").
She was self-assured that her version of knowledge is correct (the debate about the cause of star movement with Ogedei, an excellent scene) and thus maybe be oblivious to the fault of her own side. It was hinted that Zumurrud (another slave in the old Fatima's household) might have been forcefully taken from her previous home and had been suffering during her time there as well, but Sitara was likely too young to notice.
So does the show wants to say revenge is bad and one should ignore wrongdoings in the past, or is it that revenge is fine even when not everyone affected is a bad person? My interpretation is that Sitara was tragic character born out of horrible circumstances.
In the beginning the show made a point about how pursuing knowledge is a path toward figuring out the right thing, and how inspired she was by the idea. But during her time in Mongolia, we saw her constantly suppressing her desire to learn about the new culture in order to keep her hatred alive. This was a flaw in her character, but it was a flaw born out of the trauma caused by the Mongols when they violently subjugated her people.
Sitara's sense of loyalty was also a bit warped as well, she saw her quest as doing right by her master Fatima as a slave, despite how in the final moment Fatima already acknowledged Sitara as her daughter.
We see how lonely and miserable Sitara and Toregene were by insisting on holding onto their grudge, but Khulan who resigned to her new life was also not happy either, so maybe that was not something they could have chosen.
Earlier during its run there were complaints that the show romanticized slavery but I don't think that's the case, the critiques was there just unstated.
Anis states early on (I want to say episode one, but it could be two) that "We're property, not people".
With how anime audiences tend to skew younger and media literacy in general is rather low I'm not surprised. It actually is stated, not just through the quote above but through the eyes of Sitara, who grew up as a literal child knowing no better. The first and only "affection" she receives creates her entire world view. It's only after that she learns that her fellow slaves weren't as happy as they always seemed.
Despite her love for her former masters, we see them for what they are: Slave owners that pull families apart and just because Sitara feels she was treated well doesn't make up for the fact that she was no more than property.
What we then see through Sitara is her being taught a slave's value: The other house slave from Tus, Zumurrud, dies from heartbreak learning that her brother (also a slave) was murdered and her hope for freedom is lost, which causes the other house slave, Anis, to kill herself by attacking the Mongols.
The Mongols visibly kill plenty of slaves en route from Tus to the steppe, we learn that stepping on the threshold of one's home is grounds for instant death, we learn that running away is death, we learn that failure might mean death, etcetera etcetera.
The show sanitizes none of the slavery bits. What I think happened is that people have this idea of chattel slavery with the associated physical abuse and then fail to see that while not physically abused, Sitara is still only property.
When viewing it through the lens of a child slave I don't think there's a right answer. She doesn't even know the answer to this question.
Edit: spacing failures now changed for more legibility
Yeah. It's interesting how most interaction between slave and master, or between the Mongol royalties and their subjects are shown to be friendly or even affectionate. The first two episodes made it clear this is a system built by blood, but from then on we have to make a conscious effort to remember it. The cute artstyle also works in this respect too, asking us to think beyond the appearance.
I would say it's less of a tribalism thing and more her trying to hold onto the most precious memories of her life at all costs. She frames it as getting revenge for her adopted family but once she finally does get her hands on her initial goal after the major political plot unfolds, she isn't satisfied. It's not that she thinks destroying the Mongol empire is her way of honoring her family and Tus, but rather that she needs something that will keep driving her with them as her motivation to make sure she doesn't forget them. Would letting go of them as she very nearly did have been a healthy thing for her to do? Probably, but that would've made for a much less interesting story.
Oh I think both can make for interesting stories, as the alternative would be something akin to Nippon Sangoku. There was a MC who witnessed the murder of his wife, but decided to honor her by fulfilling her wish instead of pursuing revenge. The difference here I think is Sitara was still too little when witnessing her family's death, so she couldn't have developed a better coping mechanism which is part of the tragedy.
Regarding her desire to hold on to cherished memories, I agree that's a major part of it. If it's just that though then getting the book back should have been enough right? We could imagine a version of Sitara who's too grief-stricken to care about anything other than her book. But instead she was bothered that the book wasn't earned by her effort, and the knowledge that Toregene did not betray her spurred her back into action.
Maybe it's the bond they had from their shared pain that she wants to protect, rather than the pain itself. Tribalism is probably the wrong way to look at it on second thoughts (or at least it's minor). Perhaps companionship or a sense of belonging is what she's after. She found in Toregene a surrogate
mothermaster to replace the love she got from Fatima.When Sitara went to tell Sorghaghtani about marriage, she was unable to control her anger at seeing Sorghaghtani so despondent. Here was someone going through the same pain she felt, but not reacting in her same way, and that made her angry. So she seems to value the spirit to fight back as well, which fits with her initial introduction as a kid who always looked for a chance to run away. But I'm still not sure if that means she valued freedom since she prided herself as Fatima's slave.
I guess I'm still trying to process Sitara as a character. One other thing though is I think it's not in her nature to be vengeful, but only after a series of events that she came to adopt it (the pair only made the resolve halfway through the series). While it seems Toregene was dependent on Sitara, she may be more responsible for the path Sitara took than she realized.
The thing is, Aoteru from Nippon Sangoku is also working towards getting revenge, just in a different way than Sitara is. The animosity he has towards the person responsible for his wife's death is still very real, but rather than working towards collapsing the empire entirely he's more pushing towards the eventual usurpation of its current tyrant since he blames only him, not the nation which he was born into and otherwise living comfortably in. It's a much more patriotic approach which isn't possible for Sitara since she's just a slave and has no reason to want to preserve or improve the nation of violent captors that ruined her life.
After thinking about the last episode a bit more, I noticed the story has been really driving this theme of female empowerment in the male-dominant Mongol hierarchy. Boraqchin, Sorgaghtani, and Toregene are all able to advance their own ambitions which were either stalled or diminished thanks to Sitara's intervention, intentionally or otherwise, and in doing so the story itself stops revolving around just Sitara, but all of the "witches". Also it was nice to see Toregene's motherly side for once, really cute change of pace from the sad or angry mood we always got from her.
Now that you mentioned it, yeah! Though it didn't seem like that's something Sitara herself cared about, Toregene was more explicit about her struggle as female when she lamented about being traded around as tokens (in her flashback iirc). In hindsight, this may be a larger aspect of the story that I missed.
I waited for this show to end before starting it and this thread made me binge it. But it didn't really end! Argh!
I very much loved it. It reminded me a lot of Heike Monogatari. It's a show in which the "bad guys" are less bad guys and more people who have their own motivations and reasoning, and aren't really evil insomuch as chasing their own sense of righteousness in a way that maybe isn't entirely as perverted as one might expect it to be.Excellent storytelling. I really liked Tolui for his outgoing, straightforward, and surprisingly kind personality. And it's really incredible that the production is so well balanced that I can say that about a character that is literally leading armies to mow down armies and subjugate nations.
Perhaps the most interesting thing about the show though, is the theme of viewpoint. The show seems to be asking us to consider how the world might look from different perspectives. Ogedei is trying to create a world based on trade which his brother Tolui and most of the Mongol people don't see because they are on the warrior nomad perspective. Sitara harbors deep hate for the Mongol empire for destroying her way of life when in reality they have actually given her even more opportunities than she would have had otherwise - she was always a slave, but now she's a servant to royalty in the largest empire in the world. It is perspective itself that allows for the "magic" of the "witches" of this world as well, such as the early wash basin example.
Looks like I need to check out Heike Monogatari then, brief search and it seems the two shows do have many similarity, even the painterly artstyle!
Also agree regarding contrasting viewpoints. Probably most explicit was the final scene between Sitara and Ogedei, hers was the modern scientific worldview (given the available evidence for the time) and his was based on ancient mysticism. More interestingly I think is that the geocentric model could be seen as symbolic of her worldview being more self-centered, and that she's the master of her own fate. While Ogedei's story about horses bound by rope suggests a more holistic worldview, that he, despite being the absolute ruler of the largest empire, didn't see himself as in control and everyone are influenced by greater forces.
Another comparison in this vein are the few times the story involves shamanic rituals. When the Merkit chief performed the ritual to ask the spirits for guidance, it was portrayed quite earnestly and he pretty much got the right answer out of it (that the Mongol would win). But when Boraqchin set up the ritual for healing Ogedei, we already know it was fake and the truth was poisoning following actual science.
There's a sense that the story may be more sympathetic to the indiginous way of thinking, that they may not be factually correct but can still provide insights, whereas having more accurate knowledge does not necessarily mean your actions are (ethically) correct. But if so then it seems to conflict with what the wash basin demonstration was about (pursuing more knowledge would help you figure out the right course of actions)? Guess I'm not done processing...