16 votes

Bolsonaro's regime incentivizes landlords to burn off forests; anarchist fire brigades pick up the slack

17 comments

  1. [4]
    knocklessmonster
    Link
    This is pretty cool, but it sucks that now firefighting has to be antifascist action.

    This is pretty cool, but it sucks that now firefighting has to be antifascist action.

    9 votes
    1. [3]
      RNG
      Link Parent
      I think the article mistakes anti-fascist movements with anarchist movements more broadly. It's one of the reasons I take issue with this article, and hope there is a better write up by an org...

      I think the article mistakes anti-fascist movements with anarchist movements more broadly. It's one of the reasons I take issue with this article, and hope there is a better write up by an org like The Guardian or The Intercept soon.

      Pedantry aside, I do agree with your sentiment.

      8 votes
      1. [2]
        vord
        Link Parent
        In fairness, all anarchists are anti-fascist, just not all anti-fascists are anarchists.

        In fairness, all anarchists are anti-fascist, just not all anti-fascists are anarchists.

        9 votes
        1. RNG
          Link Parent
          Right. It seems that this is the nuance that is missed in the article, as the work is clearly anarchist work.

          Right. It seems that this is the nuance that is missed in the article, as the work is clearly anarchist work.

          5 votes
  2. RNG
    Link
    Balsinaro's Regime has used military and police suppression to stop NGOs and to arrest volunteer firefighters who help put out forest fires [1]. This has led to a situation where radical leftists...

    Balsinaro's Regime has used military and police suppression to stop NGOs and to arrest volunteer firefighters who help put out forest fires [1]. This has led to a situation where radical leftists (who, presumably, are less deterred by state violence) have filled the role.

    The fact is, the policy positions of neoliberal rightists are so abhorrent that, if told to a layperson, they'd distrust the source, since such positions couldn't possibly be a true reflection of their intent.

    [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/26/brazil-police-raid-ngo-office-amazon-wildfires

    NOTE: While the article linked in the OP doesn't seem well written, it does appear to be accurate. Should a better article come around, I will link it in this comment.

    6 votes
  3. [12]
    vord
    Link
    Ironically, part of the reason the western USA is having such extreme forest fires is because we artificially suppressed natural, smaller burns for a very long time in a wooded area that had...

    Ironically, part of the reason the western USA is having such extreme forest fires is because we artificially suppressed natural, smaller burns for a very long time in a wooded area that had acclimated to burning periodically.

    But yea, everything about this needing to happen is terrible, but the silver lining is that maybe that people will rethink how anarchy just might be better than some of our other options.

    4 votes
    1. [3]
      RNG
      Link Parent
      source?

      source?

      2 votes
    2. [8]
      skybrian
      Link Parent
      According to the article there were two groups of 10+ people and it’s not very clear that they accomplished much. They rescued some animals, apparently? It’s not clear that this is much more than...

      According to the article there were two groups of 10+ people and it’s not very clear that they accomplished much. They rescued some animals, apparently? It’s not clear that this is much more than a publicity stunt.

      I don’t know much about firefighting but it seems that in the US, over half of firefighters are volunteers, and that’s over 500k people? There are some interesting statistics here:

      https://apps.usfa.fema.gov/registry/summary

      2 votes
      1. [5]
        vord
        Link Parent
        ~20 amateurs with virtually no gear getting anything done about a large fire is impressive. Yes, large numbers of firefighters in the USA are volunteering. Further evidence the state of the union...

        ~20 amateurs with virtually no gear getting anything done about a large fire is impressive.

        Yes, large numbers of firefighters in the USA are volunteering. Further evidence the state of the union is flawed where you pay the people with guns but not those fighting fires.

        5 votes
        1. [4]
          skybrian
          Link Parent
          I find it strange that anarchist firefighting by (presumed) amateurs is presumed good and volunteer firefighting by people with (likely) better training and equipment and better coordination with...

          I find it strange that anarchist firefighting by (presumed) amateurs is presumed good and volunteer firefighting by people with (likely) better training and equipment and better coordination with professionals is a symptom of something wrong. When should we celebrate and honor unpaid work?

          Also, under what circumstances would it make sense for volunteers to work with the police, and what are the dangers? Presumably the risks are different than with firefighting.

          But It would probably take some research into the specifics to come up with an informed opinion about these things.

          3 votes
          1. [2]
            Thra11
            Link Parent
            I don't think there's any such distinction between the two systems. In both countries, I think that many would agree that: The volunteers / amateurs deserve praise for doing what is necessary,...

            I find it strange that anarchist firefighting by (presumed) amateurs is presumed good and volunteer firefighting by people with (likely) better training and equipment and better coordination with professionals is a symptom of something wrong. When should we celebrate and honor unpaid work?

            I don't think there's any such distinction between the two systems. In both countries, I think that many would agree that:

            1. The volunteers / amateurs deserve praise for doing what is necessary, despite not being paid to do it.
            2. Both situations are symptoms of something wrong. No country should need to rely on unpaid firefighters.

            You can praise the volunteers who step up to fill the gap, while criticising the failures that lead to there being a gap in the first place.

            6 votes
            1. skybrian
              Link Parent
              I’m not sure having a team of career professionals on call is realistic in rural areas? But apparently 12% of firefighters are “paid per call” which seems like a middle ground. I wonder how that...

              I’m not sure having a team of career professionals on call is realistic in rural areas? But apparently 12% of firefighters are “paid per call” which seems like a middle ground. I wonder how that works and why it’s not more popular?

              Also there may be non-monetary benefits from volunteering.

              1 vote
          2. RNG
            Link Parent
            Because here, as in The Guardian article in my first comment, regular firefighting orgs have been suppressed by the government. The brave volunteer "trained" firefighters who were arrested by the...

            volunteer firefighting by people with (likely) better training and equipment and better coordination with professionals is a symptom of something wrong

            Because here, as in The Guardian article in my first comment, regular firefighting orgs have been suppressed by the government. The brave volunteer "trained" firefighters who were arrested by the police and the NGOs that sponsored them are absolutely worthy of celebration.

            anarchist firefighting by (presumed) amateurs is presumed good

            In the case where the "professionals" have been suppressed, it is good that some groups feel inclined to risk state violence in order to pick up the slack.

            4 votes
      2. [2]
        hungariantoast
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        Don't you think this is kind of insulting? There is no evidence that these people volunteered as "a publicity stunt" or for any other reason than to help out. Why default to that idea?

        It’s not clear that this is much more than a publicity stunt.

        Don't you think this is kind of insulting? There is no evidence that these people volunteered as "a publicity stunt" or for any other reason than to help out. Why default to that idea?

        4 votes
        1. skybrian
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          Okay, bad choice of words. To be clear, I don’t know anything about the volunteers other than what little is written in this article, and it’s by an organization I’ve never heard of before, so I...

          Okay, bad choice of words. To be clear, I don’t know anything about the volunteers other than what little is written in this article, and it’s by an organization I’ve never heard of before, so I am somewhat suspicious that the article might exaggerate their accomplishments a bit, because many organizations do. But that should mean defaulting to uncertainty rather than making any specific accusation.

          2 votes