I'm a bit wary about posting this because I think it is likely to be quite controversial. I do think it is an important topic to discuss though, especially in light of how the Israeli goverment...
I'm a bit wary about posting this because I think it is likely to be quite controversial. I do think it is an important topic to discuss though, especially in light of how the Israeli goverment uses the Holocaust to justify its actions against the Palestinians.
Let me say (for the avoidance of doubt as to my positions)
I believe that the Jewish people have a right to self-determination
Perhaps a Jewish state established somewhere else might have been better, but there is one in Israel so we're stuck with that
I believe the Palestinians also have a right to self-determination
I believe a one-state solution would deliver the best outcomes, but may not be workable
I don't want to reward a site that uses such clickbait-y headlines, so maybe you could write why you felt that this article merited being posted. What were its arguments that you found worthy of...
I don't want to reward a site that uses such clickbait-y headlines, so maybe you could write why you felt that this article merited being posted. What were its arguments that you found worthy of discussing?
I will say that Israel is located near plenty of people that would erase its existence if they could. They have tried in the past and they continue to try today. Thus, I find there is a high bar to be met to convince me that Israel is "weaponising" the Holocaust.
I wouldn't say that the headline is really "clickbait" because that's the claim the article makes throughout. There's no "bait" it's pretty much all related to the title. I think the author makes...
Exemplary
I wouldn't say that the headline is really "clickbait" because that's the claim the article makes throughout. There's no "bait" it's pretty much all related to the title. I think the author makes their points genuinely and in good faith.
What were its arguments that you found worthy of discussing?
Its argument is that the Israeli context is not remotely the same as that of Jews throughout continental Europe during the Holocaust and therefore that it is ahistorical and unhelpful to continuously make these comparisons. It also points out that
The history of the Holocaust, however, does offer lessons for the current bloodshed.
For one, it reminds us to center the voices and perspectives of those facing state violence and genocide. And the most urgent thing that Palestinians in Gaza now need is a ceasefire and an end to the Israeli bombing campaign. That is also what at least some of the Israeli survivors of the Hamas attack and family members of Israeli civilians killed or in captivity in Gaza want. A top priority now should be stopping the unfolding violence, saving lives, and the release of Israeli hostages together with hundreds of Palestinian civilians, including 160 children, detained by Israel unlawfully, without charges or trial.
The history of the Holocaust also points to the importance of accountability, even as post-Holocaust accountability remained limited. In the case of Israel’s assault on Gaza, accountability needs to begin from what is very clear: incitement to genocide, which is punishable under article 3 of the UN genocide convention, even when genocide does not follow. While the debate about genocide in Israel’s current assault on Gaza will undoubtedly continue for years, perhaps also in international courts, Israeli war crimes and violations of international humanitarian law are beyond dispute.
It will also be important then that Israeli perpetrators of war crimes and those responsible for violations of international humanitarian law in the many years of the siege on Gaza, including during this current assault, will stand trial. Palestinian leaders and Palestinians who perpetrated the mass atrocities on 7 October should also be held accountable. International courts and legal processes are important because they hold potential to become spaces, however limited, for survivors to tell their stories, assert their humanity, and demand truth and justice.
Indeed, no value related to the study of the Holocaust and its memory occupies a more central place perhaps than truth. No justice is possible, not in the short term and certainly not in the long term, without a truthful reckoning of how we got here. This means recognizing fully the long history of Israeli settler-colonial violence against Palestinians since the 1948 Nakba.
"I will say that Israel is located near plenty of people that would erase its existence if they could. They have tried in the past and they continue to try today." This is exactly what...
"I will say that Israel is located near plenty of people that would erase its existence if they could. They have tried in the past and they continue to try today."
This is exactly what Palestinians say too. They are surrounded by a nation that wants to see their end, and they have been doing exactly that for decades.
What is happening when one nation goes to war with another nation is not the same as when one nation tries to exterminate a people. That alone should make this comparison between Israel today and the Jewish people during the Holocaust inappropriate. But when you consider that during the Holocaust the most powerful nations stood by and let it happen, while in this case the most powerful nations are on the side of Israel while it continues to victimise Palestinians it becomes even worse. If anyone is close to the horrors of what happened during the Holocaust, it would be the Palestinians.
If Palestinians had not allowed Hamas to control Gaza some 17 years ago and pursued non violence instead of constantly launching politically futile yet still deadly attacks, I think there would be...
If Palestinians had not allowed Hamas to control Gaza some 17 years ago and pursued non violence instead of constantly launching politically futile yet still deadly attacks, I think there would be a radically different outcome right now. The problem is and has been their unwillingness to accept the reality that a two state solution is the only viable solution. There is no future where Israel is destroyed.
I think it's a bit tough to put all the blame on the Palestinians, especially given that the Israelis hold all the cards. There's a pop formula that "racism = prejudice * power" and the Israelis...
I think it's a bit tough to put all the blame on the Palestinians, especially given that the Israelis hold all the cards. There's a pop formula that "racism = prejudice * power" and the Israelis in this case have a lot of power and a lot of prejudice, wherease the Palestinians hold a lot of prejudice but have almost zero power.
The Israeli government has worked tirelessly to make a two-state solution unviable by confining Israelis to the Gaza strip and encouraging settlers to go to the West Bank and make it impossible to set up a Palestinian state there.
I don’t disagree that Israel’s actions in the West Bank have been problematic, but without non stop terrorist activity coming from Gaza and with unified Palestinian support for a two state...
I don’t disagree that Israel’s actions in the West Bank have been problematic, but without non stop terrorist activity coming from Gaza and with unified Palestinian support for a two state solution, there would already be an official Palestinian state. Gaza was basically a test of Palestinian self-rule which they immediately failed.
The borders of the Gaza strip were at one point much more porus than they were leading up to the attacks. But that ended because of repeated terrorism. This conflict is in a massive cycle where...
The borders of the Gaza strip were at one point much more porus than they were leading up to the attacks. But that ended because of repeated terrorism.
This conflict is in a massive cycle where Gazans are miserable in part because of conditions imposed by Israel for its security , Gazans support Hamas in committing terror (or, sometimes civilians attack independently), Israel adds more security restrictions or counterattacks, causing civilian deaths because Hamas violates the laws of war and uses civilian infrastructure to attack from. But of course, the alternative to using civilian infrastructure is letting Israel destroy them in 30 seconds flat via superior military power.
There is no solution here outside of Israel and all the Jews in the region magically disappearing. Because Israel's first obligation as a government is to keep its citizens safe, and obviously Israel's previous security posture, however draconian for Gaza, was not enough to accomplish that goal, I don't see what option they have beyond their current path. What incentive is there for Hamas to not do this again if there is a ceasefire now? A week ago? If there was no mass retaliation?
Hamas doesn't seem to care about its own civilian casualties, so that's not a disincentive. Nor is international condemnation, because that's already happened. Sure, Israel can add more security, but security is not a guarantee
So for as horrifying as the present situation in Gaza is, I don't see a viable option beyond letting them continue to slaughter and kidnap Israeli citizens whenever they wish. Do you?
Please stop the misinformation that Palestinians do not seek a peaceful resolution. The last time there was a non-violent protest was on March 30, 2018. The Israeli military responded by opening...
Please stop the misinformation that Palestinians do not seek a peaceful resolution.
The last time there was a non-violent protest was on March 30, 2018.
The Israeli military responded by opening fire on civilians, primarily using snipers. They killed 214 civilians including 46 children, seriously wounded 36,000 people, including 8,800 children.
Israeli military forces have been accused of using explosive ammunition, and deliberately attempting to mutilate, resulting in over 150 amputations in this single march.
Israel then denied 83% of exit permits for seriously injured civilians seeking medical care outside of Palestine.
Nearly every time Palestinians protest peacefully, they are met by extreme violence.
Unconfirmed. Israel fills palestinian drinking wells with cement, dumps sewage into previously productive palestinian farming land, bulldozes olive plantations, plants a very long list of invasive...
Some incidents of shooting and throwing of explosive devices have also been reported.
Unconfirmed.
the latter resulted in extensive damage to agricultural land and nature reserves inside Israel and risked the lives of Israeli civilians.
Israel fills palestinian drinking wells with cement, dumps sewage into previously productive palestinian farming land, bulldozes olive plantations, plants a very long list of invasive plant and tree species, and we're worried about land that was seized from Palestinians getting damaged?
Damaging a border wall that was declared illegal does not mean that you can use snipers to shoot limbs off adults, never mind the children.
Self-determination is what nations should have over their own land, but here since the two nations are in the same space, it’s not just about the self. Since Hamas is a genocidal political party...
Self-determination is what nations should have over their own land, but here since the two nations are in the same space, it’s not just about the self.
Since Hamas is a genocidal political party that was first elected into office and then couped their way to power, I see a parallel to the Nazi Party. Even though Germans have a right to self-determination, in that particular instance, it is good someone took it away from them and stopped a complete genocide.
Hamas is not as powerful, but they are just as brutal. They need to be dealt with through force.
I focused on this side, but there are Israeli settlers in the West Bank that also have genocidal and apocalyptic ideas of what is going on. They should not have political power in Israel, but they are armed and form a solid base for the party currently in power. They need to be dealt with diplomatically.
As long as these genocidal religious fanatics are a part of the conversation, it’s impossible to prescribe self-determination for one side without taking away from the other. They also make the one state solution impossible to achieve.
When Hamas does wrong, we should bomb them. When the IDF does the same wrong, we should talk to them. Is that what you're saying? Because, frankly, I find that to be a horrific double-standard....
When Hamas does wrong, we should bomb them. When the IDF does the same wrong, we should talk to them. Is that what you're saying? Because, frankly, I find that to be a horrific double-standard. Even without considering the sheer asymmetry of harm going on here, where Hamas' actions don't even hold a candle to what Israel has done or is doing, this take is very, very upsetting.
To be clear, I have no love lost for Hamas whatsoever. They've committed war crimes too, and I would be very glad to hear it if they were to fall out of power. But the reality of the situation is that Israel's government is a much bigger threat to peace than Hamas has ever been, yet when they bomb civilians, half the West doesn't even care.
Sure seems that's what they're saying, and it makes me a bit ill. The Israeli govt is completely fine with settler behaviour in the West Bank.
When Hamas does wrong, we should bomb them. When the IDF does the same wrong, we should talk to them. Is that what you're saying? Because, frankly, I find that to be a horrific double-standard.
Sure seems that's what they're saying, and it makes me a bit ill. The Israeli govt is completely fine with settler behaviour in the West Bank.
The Israeli government is not completely fine with it. Just check out how the Knesset votes. The conservative government almost collapses every time settlers are brought up. They are armed and...
The Israeli government is not completely fine with it. Just check out how the Knesset votes. The conservative government almost collapses every time settlers are brought up.
They are armed and apocalyptic so it wouldn’t be easy to enact laws to stop them without a civil war, but Israel is a functioning democracy and the problem can be solved with laws and enforcement. The majority didn’t seem to want to stop it till now, but I have hope that recent events will mobilize secular voters to get the religious fanatics out of the equation on the Israeli side.
I didn’t mention the IDF because my point was about the political forces at work. Sorry for not being clear - Hamas, by being a Jihadi organization is both, but that is not what I am saying. When...
I didn’t mention the IDF because my point was about the political forces at work. Sorry for not being clear - Hamas, by being a Jihadi organization is both, but that is not what I am saying. When the IDF does something wrong, hopefully there is a process to investigate it like in every other liberal democracy and if not, there’s The Hague.
I’m with you on the first three but I don’t see any way that a one state solution can ever work, simply because there is no single one-state solution that both parties can accept — the very...
I’m with you on the first three but I don’t see any way that a one state solution can ever work, simply because there is no single one-state solution that both parties can accept — the very concept is an illusion. Instead there are two parties here, one of which will only accept a Jewish one-state solution and one of which will only accept an Islamic one-state solution.
Could just as easily - maybe even easier - make an article "Palestine must stop weaponizing the Holocaust" - considering the insane amount of times I've heard "Israel is committing the Holocaust...
Could just as easily - maybe even easier - make an article "Palestine must stop weaponizing the Holocaust" - considering the insane amount of times I've heard "Israel is committing the Holocaust against Palestinians!" unironically.
Given that the definition of small-h holocaust is "destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war," there's plenty of evidence that their claims are correct....
Given that the definition of small-h holocaust is "destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war," there's plenty of evidence that their claims are correct. But this article is about the big-H Holocaust, and the way that the country of Israel uses their historical oppression to defend against current accusations of apartheid and genocide.
Realistically, there is no small-h holocaust word anymore. Every use of the word now is an intentional comparison to the only holocaust anyone talks about anymore.
Realistically, there is no small-h holocaust word anymore. Every use of the word now is an intentional comparison to the only holocaust anyone talks about anymore.
I'm a bit wary about posting this because I think it is likely to be quite controversial. I do think it is an important topic to discuss though, especially in light of how the Israeli goverment uses the Holocaust to justify its actions against the Palestinians.
Let me say (for the avoidance of doubt as to my positions)
I don't want to reward a site that uses such clickbait-y headlines, so maybe you could write why you felt that this article merited being posted. What were its arguments that you found worthy of discussing?
I will say that Israel is located near plenty of people that would erase its existence if they could. They have tried in the past and they continue to try today. Thus, I find there is a high bar to be met to convince me that Israel is "weaponising" the Holocaust.
I wouldn't say that the headline is really "clickbait" because that's the claim the article makes throughout. There's no "bait" it's pretty much all related to the title. I think the author makes their points genuinely and in good faith.
Its argument is that the Israeli context is not remotely the same as that of Jews throughout continental Europe during the Holocaust and therefore that it is ahistorical and unhelpful to continuously make these comparisons. It also points out that
"I will say that Israel is located near plenty of people that would erase its existence if they could. They have tried in the past and they continue to try today."
This is exactly what Palestinians say too. They are surrounded by a nation that wants to see their end, and they have been doing exactly that for decades.
What is happening when one nation goes to war with another nation is not the same as when one nation tries to exterminate a people. That alone should make this comparison between Israel today and the Jewish people during the Holocaust inappropriate. But when you consider that during the Holocaust the most powerful nations stood by and let it happen, while in this case the most powerful nations are on the side of Israel while it continues to victimise Palestinians it becomes even worse. If anyone is close to the horrors of what happened during the Holocaust, it would be the Palestinians.
If Palestinians had not allowed Hamas to control Gaza some 17 years ago and pursued non violence instead of constantly launching politically futile yet still deadly attacks, I think there would be a radically different outcome right now. The problem is and has been their unwillingness to accept the reality that a two state solution is the only viable solution. There is no future where Israel is destroyed.
I think it's a bit tough to put all the blame on the Palestinians, especially given that the Israelis hold all the cards. There's a pop formula that "racism = prejudice * power" and the Israelis in this case have a lot of power and a lot of prejudice, wherease the Palestinians hold a lot of prejudice but have almost zero power.
The Israeli government has worked tirelessly to make a two-state solution unviable by confining Israelis to the Gaza strip and encouraging settlers to go to the West Bank and make it impossible to set up a Palestinian state there.
I don’t disagree that Israel’s actions in the West Bank have been problematic, but without non stop terrorist activity coming from Gaza and with unified Palestinian support for a two state solution, there would already be an official Palestinian state. Gaza was basically a test of Palestinian self-rule which they immediately failed.
The borders of the Gaza strip were at one point much more porus than they were leading up to the attacks. But that ended because of repeated terrorism.
This conflict is in a massive cycle where Gazans are miserable in part because of conditions imposed by Israel for its security , Gazans support Hamas in committing terror (or, sometimes civilians attack independently), Israel adds more security restrictions or counterattacks, causing civilian deaths because Hamas violates the laws of war and uses civilian infrastructure to attack from. But of course, the alternative to using civilian infrastructure is letting Israel destroy them in 30 seconds flat via superior military power.
There is no solution here outside of Israel and all the Jews in the region magically disappearing. Because Israel's first obligation as a government is to keep its citizens safe, and obviously Israel's previous security posture, however draconian for Gaza, was not enough to accomplish that goal, I don't see what option they have beyond their current path. What incentive is there for Hamas to not do this again if there is a ceasefire now? A week ago? If there was no mass retaliation?
Hamas doesn't seem to care about its own civilian casualties, so that's not a disincentive. Nor is international condemnation, because that's already happened. Sure, Israel can add more security, but security is not a guarantee
So for as horrifying as the present situation in Gaza is, I don't see a viable option beyond letting them continue to slaughter and kidnap Israeli citizens whenever they wish. Do you?
Please stop the misinformation that Palestinians do not seek a peaceful resolution.
The last time there was a non-violent protest was on March 30, 2018.
The Israeli military responded by opening fire on civilians, primarily using snipers. They killed 214 civilians including 46 children, seriously wounded 36,000 people, including 8,800 children.
Israeli military forces have been accused of using explosive ammunition, and deliberately attempting to mutilate, resulting in over 150 amputations in this single march.
Israel then denied 83% of exit permits for seriously injured civilians seeking medical care outside of Palestine.
Nearly every time Palestinians protest peacefully, they are met by extreme violence.
Heres a link from the UN regarding the 2018 killings:
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/two-years-on-people-injured-and-traumatized-during-the-great-march-of-return-are-still-struggling/
Unconfirmed.
Israel fills palestinian drinking wells with cement, dumps sewage into previously productive palestinian farming land, bulldozes olive plantations, plants a very long list of invasive plant and tree species, and we're worried about land that was seized from Palestinians getting damaged?
Damaging a border wall that was declared illegal does not mean that you can use snipers to shoot limbs off adults, never mind the children.
Self-determination is what nations should have over their own land, but here since the two nations are in the same space, it’s not just about the self.
Since Hamas is a genocidal political party that was first elected into office and then couped their way to power, I see a parallel to the Nazi Party. Even though Germans have a right to self-determination, in that particular instance, it is good someone took it away from them and stopped a complete genocide.
Hamas is not as powerful, but they are just as brutal. They need to be dealt with through force.
I focused on this side, but there are Israeli settlers in the West Bank that also have genocidal and apocalyptic ideas of what is going on. They should not have political power in Israel, but they are armed and form a solid base for the party currently in power. They need to be dealt with diplomatically.
As long as these genocidal religious fanatics are a part of the conversation, it’s impossible to prescribe self-determination for one side without taking away from the other. They also make the one state solution impossible to achieve.
When Hamas does wrong, we should bomb them. When the IDF does the same wrong, we should talk to them. Is that what you're saying? Because, frankly, I find that to be a horrific double-standard. Even without considering the sheer asymmetry of harm going on here, where Hamas' actions don't even hold a candle to what Israel has done or is doing, this take is very, very upsetting.
To be clear, I have no love lost for Hamas whatsoever. They've committed war crimes too, and I would be very glad to hear it if they were to fall out of power. But the reality of the situation is that Israel's government is a much bigger threat to peace than Hamas has ever been, yet when they bomb civilians, half the West doesn't even care.
Sure seems that's what they're saying, and it makes me a bit ill. The Israeli govt is completely fine with settler behaviour in the West Bank.
The Israeli government is not completely fine with it. Just check out how the Knesset votes. The conservative government almost collapses every time settlers are brought up.
They are armed and apocalyptic so it wouldn’t be easy to enact laws to stop them without a civil war, but Israel is a functioning democracy and the problem can be solved with laws and enforcement. The majority didn’t seem to want to stop it till now, but I have hope that recent events will mobilize secular voters to get the religious fanatics out of the equation on the Israeli side.
I didn’t mention the IDF because my point was about the political forces at work. Sorry for not being clear - Hamas, by being a Jihadi organization is both, but that is not what I am saying. When the IDF does something wrong, hopefully there is a process to investigate it like in every other liberal democracy and if not, there’s The Hague.
I’m with you on the first three but I don’t see any way that a one state solution can ever work, simply because there is no single one-state solution that both parties can accept — the very concept is an illusion. Instead there are two parties here, one of which will only accept a Jewish one-state solution and one of which will only accept an Islamic one-state solution.
Could just as easily - maybe even easier - make an article "Palestine must stop weaponizing the Holocaust" - considering the insane amount of times I've heard "Israel is committing the Holocaust against Palestinians!" unironically.
(edited to big H holocaust)
Given that the definition of small-h holocaust is "destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war," there's plenty of evidence that their claims are correct. But this article is about the big-H Holocaust, and the way that the country of Israel uses their historical oppression to defend against current accusations of apartheid and genocide.
Realistically, there is no small-h holocaust word anymore. Every use of the word now is an intentional comparison to the only holocaust anyone talks about anymore.