16 votes

Weekly Israel-Hamas war megathread - week of January 29

This thread is posted weekly - please try to post all relevant Israel-Hamas war content in here, such as news, updates, opinion articles, etc. Extremely significant events may warrant a separate topic, but almost all should be posted in here.

Please try to avoid antagonistic arguments and bickering matches. Comment threads that devolve into unproductive arguments may be removed so that the overall topic is able to continue.

10 comments

  1. [7]
    skybrian
    Link
    Gen Z Is Listening to What Netanyahu Is Saying. Is Biden? (NY Times, by Ezra Klein, gift link) ...

    Gen Z Is Listening to What Netanyahu Is Saying. Is Biden? (NY Times, by Ezra Klein, gift link)

    This is crude, but I think there are, roughly, three generations in terms of American sentiment toward Israel. There are older Americans who knew Israel when it was young. They remember the impossibility and wonder of its creation. They remember the wars its neighbors launched to eradicate it and the seeming miracle of its survival and of all that it then built. This generation still feels Israel’s vulnerability. They still feel its possibility. This is Joe Biden’s generation. It is a great gift for Israel that it still, improbably, controls American politics.

    Then there’s what I think of as the straddle generation. This is my generation. We only ever knew Israel as the strongest military power in the region. A nuclear Israel. An Israel that occupied Palestinian territories, sometimes brutally. But we also knew an Israel that seemed to be trying to find its way toward peace and coexistence. We knew the Israel of Yitzhak Rabin and Ehud Barak. We saw that the collapse of the 2000 Camp David summit was met by the second intifada, by years of suicide bombers rather than years of counteroffers. We also watched Israel build settlements across the West Bank, creating a one-state reality even as it spoke of a two-state solution. Polling shows, predictably, that our views of Israel are more mixed.

    Then there’s younger Americans. They know only Benjamin Netanyahu’s Israel. He has, after all, been prime minister almost continuously since 2009. They know an Israel that is the strongest country in the region, by far. They know an Israel where messianic ethnonationalists serve in the cabinet. They know an Israel that controls Palestinian life and land and intends to keep it that way. They see this as simpler: a country that oppresses and a people that is oppressed. They are not entirely right — too little agency is offered to Palestinians in this telling — but they are not entirely wrong.

    ...

    Which is one reason I think the response to the protests on campus has been misguided. This is not a problem you can solve by firing college presidents or blackballing student radicals. Israel is losing the support of a generation, not a few student groups. And it is losing it because of what it does, not what it is.

    19 votes
    1. [4]
      bloup
      Link Parent
      I’ve always strongly disliked this line of reasoning, and I think it’s very toxic. I think we all need to admit that it was always a fantasy that the PLO would ever have the political ability to...

      We saw that the collapse of the 2000 Camp David summit was met by the second intifada, by years of suicide bombers rather than years of counteroffers. We also watched Israel build settlements across the West Bank, creating a one-state reality even as it spoke of a two-state solution.

      I’ve always strongly disliked this line of reasoning, and I think it’s very toxic. I think we all need to admit that it was always a fantasy that the PLO would ever have the political ability to accept any offer from Israel, given the context of the origins of the country, and the people who were already there when it was founded. The truth is though that Israel did not need the permission of the Palestinians to take responsibility for their well-being. And the idea that “well the Palestinian people didn’t even try to negotiate!” Was always just a convenient excuse to continue the settlements.

      5 votes
      1. [3]
        skybrian
        Link Parent
        The idea that people should have known in advance that negotiations would fail seems rather defeatist. Was it so doomed that they shouldn't even have tried? We know that the negotiations failed...

        The idea that people should have known in advance that negotiations would fail seems rather defeatist. Was it so doomed that they shouldn't even have tried?

        We know that the negotiations failed now, but that's in hindsight. Predicting the future is not that easy.

        4 votes
        1. [2]
          bloup
          Link Parent
          Absolutely not and I’m sorry if it seems that way, I am only writing this in response to a journalist who seems to be attributing some level of blame to the Palestinians for the PLO rejecting...

          The idea that people should have known in advance that negotiations would fail seems rather defeatist. Was it so doomed that they shouldn't even have tried?

          Absolutely not and I’m sorry if it seems that way, I am only writing this in response to a journalist who seems to be attributing some level of blame to the Palestinians for the PLO rejecting Israel’s proposal. I’m not criticizing Israel for trying to do diplomacy, I am criticizing everyone who has made excuses for Israel once the diplomacy had failed. People act like that by the PLO rejecting diplomacy, Israel’s hands became tied, and there was nothing they could have done differently. When it was never true, and it was always up to them to take responsibility for the wellbeing of the people living in these areas, even if they did not have those people’s popular support. But they never even tried. They never even tried to pretend. The Palestinian people have been treated as illegal immigrants in a land that they were never a stranger to for my entire life, and Israel did not need the PLO to accept any proposal to for instance simply grant the people in Palestine freedom of movement, to simply stop the continual settlement of the West Bank.

          These things cannot be forgotten about.

          6 votes
          1. skybrian
            Link Parent
            Yes, unfortunately it's very common to justify decisions by blaming the other side. On the other hand it's all interconnected. Wars and war-like situations are all about making some choices very...

            Yes, unfortunately it's very common to justify decisions by blaming the other side.

            On the other hand it's all interconnected. Wars and war-like situations are all about making some choices very bad for the other side. This is how deterrence works. And when deterrence fails, it makes everything worse.

            1 vote
    2. [2]
      smoontjes
      Link Parent
      What is meant by agency in this context sorry?

      They are not entirely right — too little agency is offered to Palestinians in this telling — but they are not entirely wrong.

      What is meant by agency in this context sorry?

      2 votes
      1. skybrian
        Link Parent
        It means that at least some Palestinians (Hamas leadership, for example) can and do make decisions for themselves. That's still true even if all available choices are bad ones.

        It means that at least some Palestinians (Hamas leadership, for example) can and do make decisions for themselves. That's still true even if all available choices are bad ones.

        2 votes
  2. gpl
    Link
    3 US troops dead and more injured after drone strike on base in Jordan. Apparently the strike came after a mix-up confusing the enemy drone for a returning friendly one. The group to launch the...

    3 US troops dead and more injured after drone strike on base in Jordan. Apparently the strike came after a mix-up confusing the enemy drone for a returning friendly one. The group to launch the attack has not been identified yet but is thought to be one of the Iran-backed militias in the area. The US has promised to retaliate already.

    Wasn't sure whether to post this here, in its own thread, or in the politics thread. This seemed most apt, despite not being directly tied to hostilities in Gaza.

    4 votes
  3. skybrian
    Link
    Undercover Israeli troops dressed as medical staff kill three militants in West Bank hospital raid, officials say (CNN)

    Undercover Israeli troops dressed as medical staff kill three militants in West Bank hospital raid, officials say (CNN)

    Israeli special forces, dressed as civilians and medical staff, infiltrated the Ibn Sina hospital in the occupied West Bank city of Jenin on Tuesday and killed three Palestinian men, according to Israeli and Palestinian officials.

    CCTV footage shared on social media appeared to show around a dozen commandos disguised as nurses, women in hijabs, and others, with one pushing a wheelchair and another carrying a baby car seat, as they stormed a hospital corridor carrying assault weapons.

    Hamas said the men were Jenin Brigades fighters, an umbrella group of armed Palestinian factions in the West Bank city. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said they were terrorists linked to Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and an Israeli government minister praised the operation.

    4 votes
  4. skybrian
    Link
    At least half of Gaza's buildings damaged or destroyed, new analysis shows (BBC) … … … …

    At least half of Gaza's buildings damaged or destroyed, new analysis shows (BBC)

    Now, satellite data analysis obtained by the BBC shows the true extent of the destruction. The analysis suggests between 144,000 and 175,000 buildings across the whole Gaza Strip have been damaged or destroyed. That's between 50% and 61% of Gaza's buildings.

    The analysis, carried out by Corey Scher of City University of New York and Jamon Van Den Hoek of Oregon State University, compares images to reveal sudden changes in the height or structure of buildings which indicate damage.

    The southern city of Khan Younis has been particularly badly hit in recent weeks, with more than 38,000 (or more than 46%) of buildings now destroyed or damaged, according to the analysis. Over the past fortnight, more than 1,500 buildings have been destroyed or damaged there.

    Al-Farra Tower - a 16-storey residential block in the centre of the city, the tallest building in the area - was flattened on 9 January as can be seen in before-and-after images of the city's skyline. Much of the neighbourhood in which it sits has been levelled by Israeli attacks since late December

    Mr Scher, one of the academics who worked on the Gaza damage assessment, said it stands out compared with other war zones he's analysed.

    "We've done work over Ukraine, we've also looked at Aleppo and other cities, but the extent and the pace of damage is remarkable. I've never seen this much damage appear so quickly."

    Further analysis, carried out by BBC Verify, shows large areas of previously cultivated land across Gaza have been extensively damaged.

    Although Gaza was heavily dependent on imports before the start of the war, a lot of its food came from farming and food production inside the strip. Aid agencies say half of Gaza's population is now facing starvation.

    3 votes