Germany's treatment of this issue has been full of horrific violations of civil rights and far too much (always very racially targeted) violence. It's genuinely been one of the biggest factors...
Germany's treatment of this issue has been full of horrific violations of civil rights and far too much (always very racially targeted) violence. It's genuinely been one of the biggest factors weighing on me as my wife and I consider moving back to her home country instead of remaining here, and it's been a factor in my hesitance to apply for German citizenship now that I'm eligible. I'm hopeful that the court will make the right decision here, but not optimistic.
Love how the German government can prosecute pro-Palestine protestors under these originally well-intentioned anti-Nazi laws while the AfD can hold conferences saying they'll "remigrate" people...
Love how the German government can prosecute pro-Palestine protestors under these originally well-intentioned anti-Nazi laws while the AfD can hold conferences saying they'll "remigrate" people and only get a feckless condemnation. Great consistency from an allegedly social-democratic government.
Yeah, it's only going to get worse once the conservatives are back in power here, but none of the political parties here are willing to even make the smallest of concessions on this topic. It's...
Yeah, it's only going to get worse once the conservatives are back in power here, but none of the political parties here are willing to even make the smallest of concessions on this topic. It's depressing.
Mmm, alright then, if Germany, the country responsible for the holocaust, prosecuting antisemitist slogans can be “the biggest factor” for you to choose not to stay there, that would be a deep...
Mmm, alright then, if Germany, the country responsible for the holocaust, prosecuting antisemitist slogans can be “the biggest factor” for you to choose not to stay there, that would be a deep incompatibility with its values anyway.
The idea that this is just "prosecuting antisemitic slogans" is ignoring so much of the greater picture. Others here have pointed out that "From the river to the sea" is not unambiguously...
Exemplary
The idea that this is just "prosecuting antisemitic slogans" is ignoring so much of the greater picture. Others here have pointed out that "From the river to the sea" is not unambiguously antisemitic. The article even mentions another German court case that found that -- even within Germany under German law, there is not universal agreement that this phrase constitutes an antisemitic slogan. In my own experience, it's certainly not used that way exclusively or universally. That is not enough to criminalize such a statement to this extent, in my opinion.
The German government is also cracking down on protests to an extent that cannot merely be explained by combatting antisemitism. The German arm of Jewish Voice for a Just Peace have had their German bank accounts frozen multiple times in the past, most recently earlier this year. Jews in Germany are frequently (and afaik disproportionately) arrested when they participate in anti-Israel protests or political speech -- for instance, here's an article about an Israeli Jew in Germany who was arrested by Berlin police for holding a sign criticizing Netanyahu. Here's a relevant quote:
In the police van, an officer asked me what the demonstrators were chanting in Arabic – I think they hadn’t realised until this moment that I wasn’t an Arab. At every protest, I see how the police treat people who they consider Muslim much worse than us Israelis. German society is very racist – the voices of white Jews are much more likely to be heard than the voices of Palestinians. I always find that painful. But we Israelis need to be the ones who demand a boycott of the state of Israel. If the victims of the occupation raise this demand, they are accused of anti-Semitism. This hypocrisy of the German government means that the people who are most directly affected are simply not heard.
This article was published in 2015, fwiw.
An Israeli acquaintance ran a seminar on how to criticize Israel without being antisemitic last summer, which I wish I'd had time to attend given all that's happened since. I have several other Israeli friends. I don't say this to convince anyone here I'm bot antisemitic, but merely to illustrate that I'm not in a bubble here. I don't hold anything against individual Israelis -- as an American, that would be wildly hypocritical, given how many horrific things my country of birth has done and continues doing in other parts of the world. But I don't think it's impossible to care about people as human beings while also opposing what a state is doing. And, without going into too much further detail, I cannot do anything but oppose what Israel has been doing to Palestinians.
The German political rhetoric right now is only growing more and more racist and hostile towards immigrants, and you can absolutely bet this is not applied equally to every immigrant -- white immigrants are treated very differently than non-white immigrants in nearly every part of German society. Those who look like they might be Arab or Turkish are particularly targeted by racism and xenophobia. As a white immigrant from a rich country with a lot of cultural capital, I'm in an incredibly privileged position in this country. Time and time again do I see laws that are supposedly for combatting antisemitism being used to discriminate against minorities. If Germany made half as much an effort to combat antisemitism and racism more generally among native white Germans, the AfD wouldn't have seats in the Bundestag. Heck, the fact that the same people who wring their hands at the idea of labeling the AfD an extremist organization have no problem with sending someone to jail for 3 years for using a pro-Palestine slogan during a protest already says enough. Civil rights do not apply remotely evenly here in practice.
If you think this boils down to me not supporting Germans prosecuting antisemitism in general, I don't think there's much I can do to stop you. But I hope this comment, rambling as it is, at least conveys some of the complexities of my opinions on the matter. If you genuinely think that I have "a deep incompatibility with its values", I think that says more about you and about Germany than it does about me.
Hey, while I in some ways agree with what you're saying, I wanted to call out here that you come across as sarcastic and not engaging in good faith with the person you're replying to -- for all...
Hey, while I in some ways agree with what you're saying, I wanted to call out here that you come across as sarcastic and not engaging in good faith with the person you're replying to -- for all I'm normally at odds with people on the topic of antisemitism, we can typically have something resembling a productive dialogue, and I don't think your comment is aimed at building one.
Figured it was better coming from me than someone who might have taken it personally.
I'm pretty angry at the person, so this is me holding back. Except for the "Mmm", I consider my post a neutral, factual statement. Can it seriously be argued that that is not the case? Germany has...
I'm pretty angry at the person, so this is me holding back.
Except for the "Mmm", I consider my post a neutral, factual statement. Can it seriously be argued that that is not the case?
Germany has crawled its way back from arguably the most murderous, inhumane society in history to a modern, progressive and tolerant country (not that there are no problems in Germany but it does better than most countries in that regard). This is very much related to not tolerating antisemitism. And to accepting Israel as a country. I'm not gonna defend Israel bombing civilians, here. But a lot of the recent protests blatantly call for an eradication Israel. If you have a slogan that can be very easily argued to suggest that, I believe a prosecution (to analyze the slogan in more detail than I am capable of) in Germany is appropriate.
I get it... But when people get angry, threads get closed, and we lose the opportunity to engage at all. There is a post on the megathread that made me see red yesterday, but I held off responding...
I get it... But when people get angry, threads get closed, and we lose the opportunity to engage at all.
There is a post on the megathread that made me see red yesterday, but I held off responding because anything I put out would have only solidified their opinion ... Hoping to write up something coherent later...
How am I not supposed to get angry at a claim that, from my (maybe incorrect?) point of view indirectly promotes genocide? The post I originally replied to decided to make this about a personal...
How am I not supposed to get angry at a claim that, from my (maybe incorrect?) point of view indirectly promotes genocide? The post I originally replied to decided to make this about a personal decision and that's the only extend to which I made my reply personal. I feel like I'm being remarkably calm, here. Are you suggesting "some things should not be said out loud"? Because I don't consider this to be such a thing. If you stay in Germany and question laws against antisemitism, this is an appropriate response to hear, IMO. I'm not even claiming that my position cannot be argued against. This is not an easy topic.
This gets a bit into my personal philosophy, but the way I cope with arguing without emotion with someone I perceive as wanting me or people like me harmed is to mentally decide that they may be...
This gets a bit into my personal philosophy, but the way I cope with arguing without emotion with someone I perceive as wanting me or people like me harmed is to mentally decide that they may be irredeemable, and that I'm really only attempting to get anyone reading on the sidelines not to be convinced by them.
If you want to privately message me to talk about this, feel free. It's been a rough year.
I think this is a willful misunderstanding of what "from the river to the sea" refers to. It's a pro-Palestine slogan. It's not anti-semetic to disagree with zionism and its atrocities.
I think this is a willful misunderstanding of what "from the river to the sea" refers to. It's a pro-Palestine slogan. It's not anti-semetic to disagree with zionism and its atrocities.
Many people use it as a generic pro-Palestine slogan, others use it literally, as in the whole area between the river and the see should be Palestine and Israel should cease to exist. It's a tough...
Many people use it as a generic pro-Palestine slogan, others use it literally, as in the whole area between the river and the see should be Palestine and Israel should cease to exist. It's a tough situation because it's hard to differentiate the former and the latter and it was also shown that many protesters in the west don't even know the original meaning. But since the literal meaning exists and is actually used, I don't think it's strange that people consider it antisemitic.
It's worse than you might think. There are multiple statements in Arabic that map to "from the river..." typically, they rhyme. Depending on what variation of Arabic, and what word "river" or...
It's worse than you might think. There are multiple statements in Arabic that map to "from the river..." typically, they rhyme.
Depending on what variation of Arabic, and what word "river" or "sea" originated at (sometimes it translates from the word for "water" instead of river and sea), the final word isn't always free either. There are variations with rhymes for the word for Palestine will be: "Arab", and "Islamic", among others. From what I understand, those varients also tend to be the older ones.
Obviously, (at least to me) those statements would imply a desire for ethnic cleansing or forced conversion, and could be taken as a threat. That said, particularly in English speaking countries, many aren't aware of old Arabic phrasing, and do genuinely mean what they say and want a peaceful solution. It does exclude a two state solution, without which personally, I don't think could ever lead to peace without the Jews being ethnically cleansed, but there is some small amount of room for argument there, I guess...
That said, I also think part of the reason the "free" variation became so popular is actually because of its ambiguity. The violent hear a dog whistle of violence -- Palestine to be free of Jews -- and the peaceful hear peace.
Edit: realized in the shower I made a mistake by mentioning a two state solution as a possibility.
Germany's treatment of this issue has been full of horrific violations of civil rights and far too much (always very racially targeted) violence. It's genuinely been one of the biggest factors weighing on me as my wife and I consider moving back to her home country instead of remaining here, and it's been a factor in my hesitance to apply for German citizenship now that I'm eligible. I'm hopeful that the court will make the right decision here, but not optimistic.
Love how the German government can prosecute pro-Palestine protestors under these originally well-intentioned anti-Nazi laws while the AfD can hold conferences saying they'll "remigrate" people and only get a feckless condemnation. Great consistency from an allegedly social-democratic government.
Yeah, it's only going to get worse once the conservatives are back in power here, but none of the political parties here are willing to even make the smallest of concessions on this topic. It's depressing.
Mmm, alright then, if Germany, the country responsible for the holocaust, prosecuting antisemitist slogans can be “the biggest factor” for you to choose not to stay there, that would be a deep incompatibility with its values anyway.
The idea that this is just "prosecuting antisemitic slogans" is ignoring so much of the greater picture. Others here have pointed out that "From the river to the sea" is not unambiguously antisemitic. The article even mentions another German court case that found that -- even within Germany under German law, there is not universal agreement that this phrase constitutes an antisemitic slogan. In my own experience, it's certainly not used that way exclusively or universally. That is not enough to criminalize such a statement to this extent, in my opinion.
The German government is also cracking down on protests to an extent that cannot merely be explained by combatting antisemitism. The German arm of Jewish Voice for a Just Peace have had their German bank accounts frozen multiple times in the past, most recently earlier this year. Jews in Germany are frequently (and afaik disproportionately) arrested when they participate in anti-Israel protests or political speech -- for instance, here's an article about an Israeli Jew in Germany who was arrested by Berlin police for holding a sign criticizing Netanyahu. Here's a relevant quote:
This article was published in 2015, fwiw.
An Israeli acquaintance ran a seminar on how to criticize Israel without being antisemitic last summer, which I wish I'd had time to attend given all that's happened since. I have several other Israeli friends. I don't say this to convince anyone here I'm bot antisemitic, but merely to illustrate that I'm not in a bubble here. I don't hold anything against individual Israelis -- as an American, that would be wildly hypocritical, given how many horrific things my country of birth has done and continues doing in other parts of the world. But I don't think it's impossible to care about people as human beings while also opposing what a state is doing. And, without going into too much further detail, I cannot do anything but oppose what Israel has been doing to Palestinians.
The German political rhetoric right now is only growing more and more racist and hostile towards immigrants, and you can absolutely bet this is not applied equally to every immigrant -- white immigrants are treated very differently than non-white immigrants in nearly every part of German society. Those who look like they might be Arab or Turkish are particularly targeted by racism and xenophobia. As a white immigrant from a rich country with a lot of cultural capital, I'm in an incredibly privileged position in this country. Time and time again do I see laws that are supposedly for combatting antisemitism being used to discriminate against minorities. If Germany made half as much an effort to combat antisemitism and racism more generally among native white Germans, the AfD wouldn't have seats in the Bundestag. Heck, the fact that the same people who wring their hands at the idea of labeling the AfD an extremist organization have no problem with sending someone to jail for 3 years for using a pro-Palestine slogan during a protest already says enough. Civil rights do not apply remotely evenly here in practice.
If you think this boils down to me not supporting Germans prosecuting antisemitism in general, I don't think there's much I can do to stop you. But I hope this comment, rambling as it is, at least conveys some of the complexities of my opinions on the matter. If you genuinely think that I have "a deep incompatibility with its values", I think that says more about you and about Germany than it does about me.
Hey, while I in some ways agree with what you're saying, I wanted to call out here that you come across as sarcastic and not engaging in good faith with the person you're replying to -- for all I'm normally at odds with people on the topic of antisemitism, we can typically have something resembling a productive dialogue, and I don't think your comment is aimed at building one.
Figured it was better coming from me than someone who might have taken it personally.
I'm pretty angry at the person, so this is me holding back.
Except for the "Mmm", I consider my post a neutral, factual statement. Can it seriously be argued that that is not the case?
Germany has crawled its way back from arguably the most murderous, inhumane society in history to a modern, progressive and tolerant country (not that there are no problems in Germany but it does better than most countries in that regard). This is very much related to not tolerating antisemitism. And to accepting Israel as a country. I'm not gonna defend Israel bombing civilians, here. But a lot of the recent protests blatantly call for an eradication Israel. If you have a slogan that can be very easily argued to suggest that, I believe a prosecution (to analyze the slogan in more detail than I am capable of) in Germany is appropriate.
I get it... But when people get angry, threads get closed, and we lose the opportunity to engage at all.
There is a post on the megathread that made me see red yesterday, but I held off responding because anything I put out would have only solidified their opinion ... Hoping to write up something coherent later...
How am I not supposed to get angry at a claim that, from my (maybe incorrect?) point of view indirectly promotes genocide? The post I originally replied to decided to make this about a personal decision and that's the only extend to which I made my reply personal. I feel like I'm being remarkably calm, here. Are you suggesting "some things should not be said out loud"? Because I don't consider this to be such a thing. If you stay in Germany and question laws against antisemitism, this is an appropriate response to hear, IMO. I'm not even claiming that my position cannot be argued against. This is not an easy topic.
This gets a bit into my personal philosophy, but the way I cope with arguing without emotion with someone I perceive as wanting me or people like me harmed is to mentally decide that they may be irredeemable, and that I'm really only attempting to get anyone reading on the sidelines not to be convinced by them.
If you want to privately message me to talk about this, feel free. It's been a rough year.
I think this is a willful misunderstanding of what "from the river to the sea" refers to. It's a pro-Palestine slogan. It's not anti-semetic to disagree with zionism and its atrocities.
Many people use it as a generic pro-Palestine slogan, others use it literally, as in the whole area between the river and the see should be Palestine and Israel should cease to exist. It's a tough situation because it's hard to differentiate the former and the latter and it was also shown that many protesters in the west don't even know the original meaning. But since the literal meaning exists and is actually used, I don't think it's strange that people consider it antisemitic.
It's worse than you might think. There are multiple statements in Arabic that map to "from the river..." typically, they rhyme.
Depending on what variation of Arabic, and what word "river" or "sea" originated at (sometimes it translates from the word for "water" instead of river and sea), the final word isn't always free either. There are variations with rhymes for the word for Palestine will be: "Arab", and "Islamic", among others. From what I understand, those varients also tend to be the older ones.
Obviously, (at least to me) those statements would imply a desire for ethnic cleansing or forced conversion, and could be taken as a threat. That said, particularly in English speaking countries, many aren't aware of old Arabic phrasing, and do genuinely mean what they say and want a peaceful solution. It does exclude a two state solution, without which personally, I don't think could ever lead to peace without the Jews being ethnically cleansed, but there is some small amount of room for argument there, I guess...
That said, I also think part of the reason the "free" variation became so popular is actually because of its ambiguity. The violent hear a dog whistle of violence -- Palestine to be free of Jews -- and the peaceful hear peace.
Edit: realized in the shower I made a mistake by mentioning a two state solution as a possibility.