He seems to have missed the point of the phrase "toxic masculinity". It's not about saying that some qualities are solely male, and are therefore bad. It's about saying that the stereotype of...
He seems to have missed the point of the phrase "toxic masculinity". It's not about saying that some qualities are solely male, and are therefore bad. It's about saying that the stereotype of masculine behaviour - which often includes things like "boys don't cry" and being violent - can be bad for people (men and women!) when taken to an extreme. If boys grow up being told that they can only behave in certain ways, because that's how men should behave, that locks them into certain patterns which might not be beneficial for them or the people around them.
We need to let boys be who they want to be, just like we (are trying to) let girls be who they want to be. Women have fought for equality and freedom, so that girls don't have to pigeonhole themselves into certain stereotypes (and that's still a work in progress!). We need to do the same for boys. If we say that girls should be able to be truck drivers without judgement, then we should similarly say that boys should be able to be ballerinas also without judgement.
Toxic masculinity is locking men into a cage. We're trying to free women from their cage. Let's free men from theirs as well. Let all children - boys, girls, and otherwise - be whoever and whatever they want to be. Teach them to be happy, decent, and fulfilled human beings, rather than restricted and suppressed people.
I don't think that is what he is saying. i think he is saying that defining toxic masculinity implies nontoxic masculinity, and he feels the things we identify as characteristic of masculinity...
I don't think that is what he is saying. i think he is saying that defining toxic masculinity implies nontoxic masculinity, and he feels the things we identify as characteristic of masculinity rather than humanity aren't very positive in general right now.
Yes certainly uncage the youth :) (my son chooses what colours he wears, and it is often pink as much as more trad male colour palettes) but equally i think we need to work out what are some positive images of masculinity that show young boys (and not so young men) what are the options out there to them.
People of different genders and sexes are indeed, different. Not qualitatively but in a bunch of other ways. They respond differently to information and experiences. We can present de-gendered and de-sexed images of 'being a good person' but ones that are gendered will also have power. I, like Webb to some extent, sometimes struggle to work out what that is for my son.
Anyway, its interest enough i may pick up his book.
Why do they have to be positive images of masculinity for your son? Why not positive images of humanity? Why do we need to label some traits as "masculine" and others as "feminine"? Some humans...
i think we need to work out what are some positive images of masculinity that show young boys (and not so young men) what are the options out there to them.
Why do they have to be positive images of masculinity for your son? Why not positive images of humanity? Why do we need to label some traits as "masculine" and others as "feminine"? Some humans are courageous. Some humans are nurturing. Some humans are strong. Some humans are caring. They're not "male" or "female" traits, they're just traits that various people have or don't have, or have to varying degrees.
Because while showing positive traits of humanity is great, and should be part of the story, peopel do also identify by gender, and role models within that gender are also a useful part of the...
Because while showing positive traits of humanity is great, and should be part of the story, peopel do also identify by gender, and role models within that gender are also a useful part of the story, because gender experiences do differ. Its nto the while story, but I don't thoink being gender-blind is especially useful taken to any extreme.
Interestingly enough, pink was not (and still is not) always for boys – see this list on Wikipedia On of the explanations I heard for pink for boys (in Europe) was that red is the colour of blood...
[…] (my son chooses what colours he wears, and it is often pink as much as more trad male colour palettes) […]
Interestingly enough, pink was not (and still is not) always for boys – see this list on Wikipedia
On of the explanations I heard for pink for boys (in Europe) was that red is the colour of blood (and purple and crimson for royalty), so pink is a gentler tone of that.
I definitely agree with your analysis of toxic masculinity. And I believe Robert Webb was saying the same thing you were. But instead of referring to "the stereotype of masculine behavior" as...
I definitely agree with your analysis of toxic masculinity. And I believe Robert Webb was saying the same thing you were. But instead of referring to "the stereotype of masculine behavior" as "toxic masculinity" he was insinuating that the whole of masculinity is toxic and should therefore be thrown out.
I like your statement that we are locking men into a cage: How one gender is treated affects the whole human race. When we state that women are lesser creatures only fit for childrearing, we are stating that men can't be caretakers lest they be seen as "womanly." Then we get disdain for men fighting for their rights to be fathers and boys are not even given the opportunity to learn how to nurture. Instead they are taught perseverance and "to never take no for an answer," and that it's ok to use your physicality to win an argument. In turn we get (not all) men who don't know how to have a healthy relationship. They catcall, they manipulate, and in some cases they perpetrate domestic violence. This causes women to feel distrustful of men which perpetuates the "men can't be caretakers" stigma. It also stigmatizes that all domestic violence victims are women, which we know is patently false. This makes men feel embarrassed to come forward, and causes a devastating under-reporting of male domestic violence which makes us think it is not an issue.
I realize that this is one chain of events. It happens in many different ways, but this one way I can think of that the idea of feminism can and does help all genders. I choose to call it feminism because in my belief, it begins with the repression of women.
One way I think we can combat this is to teach our boys to be nurturing and caring and teach our girls to be independent and strong in addition to what society thinks they should know. /soapbox
Sorry its an FB vid link, not many other sources. Webb at the Hay festival, talking about his autobiography. I found this very interesting. I think this speaks to a crisis in maleness, which is in...
Sorry its an FB vid link, not many other sources. Webb at the Hay festival, talking about his autobiography. I found this very interesting.
I think this speaks to a crisis in maleness, which is in search of a place to be that is clearly positive and forward looking. I would agree that the typical markers of masculinity seem wither not so positive or not so characteristic these days. For Femininity, there is the option to define oneself in positive opposition to the patriarchal societies we are trying to leave behind, so so for bloke-world. The touchy feely 'new man' is derided in the age of Trump, the 'manosphere', incels and the red pill, but there is no alternate positive goal put in place.
I loved this video! I love his comedy and it's so nice to know I'm a fan of his social issues as well. I completely agree that the concept of "masculinity" is itself toxic. If we were able to...
I loved this video! I love his comedy and it's so nice to know I'm a fan of his social issues as well.
I completely agree that the concept of "masculinity" is itself toxic. If we were able to define "masculine" as "whatever a man does." That would be one thing, but we have proven unable to do that. I love his thought that the positive aspects of typical masculinity are positive aspects of humans in general, and I would say the same goes for femininity. The ability to be caring, kind, and in tune with emotions are all things that men are capable of and are currently doing in a lot of cases.
He seems to have missed the point of the phrase "toxic masculinity". It's not about saying that some qualities are solely male, and are therefore bad. It's about saying that the stereotype of masculine behaviour - which often includes things like "boys don't cry" and being violent - can be bad for people (men and women!) when taken to an extreme. If boys grow up being told that they can only behave in certain ways, because that's how men should behave, that locks them into certain patterns which might not be beneficial for them or the people around them.
We need to let boys be who they want to be, just like we (are trying to) let girls be who they want to be. Women have fought for equality and freedom, so that girls don't have to pigeonhole themselves into certain stereotypes (and that's still a work in progress!). We need to do the same for boys. If we say that girls should be able to be truck drivers without judgement, then we should similarly say that boys should be able to be ballerinas also without judgement.
Toxic masculinity is locking men into a cage. We're trying to free women from their cage. Let's free men from theirs as well. Let all children - boys, girls, and otherwise - be whoever and whatever they want to be. Teach them to be happy, decent, and fulfilled human beings, rather than restricted and suppressed people.
I don't think that is what he is saying. i think he is saying that defining toxic masculinity implies nontoxic masculinity, and he feels the things we identify as characteristic of masculinity rather than humanity aren't very positive in general right now.
Yes certainly uncage the youth :) (my son chooses what colours he wears, and it is often pink as much as more trad male colour palettes) but equally i think we need to work out what are some positive images of masculinity that show young boys (and not so young men) what are the options out there to them.
People of different genders and sexes are indeed, different. Not qualitatively but in a bunch of other ways. They respond differently to information and experiences. We can present de-gendered and de-sexed images of 'being a good person' but ones that are gendered will also have power. I, like Webb to some extent, sometimes struggle to work out what that is for my son.
Anyway, its interest enough i may pick up his book.
Why do they have to be positive images of masculinity for your son? Why not positive images of humanity? Why do we need to label some traits as "masculine" and others as "feminine"? Some humans are courageous. Some humans are nurturing. Some humans are strong. Some humans are caring. They're not "male" or "female" traits, they're just traits that various people have or don't have, or have to varying degrees.
Because while showing positive traits of humanity is great, and should be part of the story, peopel do also identify by gender, and role models within that gender are also a useful part of the story, because gender experiences do differ. Its nto the while story, but I don't thoink being gender-blind is especially useful taken to any extreme.
Interestingly enough, pink was not (and still is not) always for boys – see this list on Wikipedia
On of the explanations I heard for pink for boys (in Europe) was that red is the colour of blood (and purple and crimson for royalty), so pink is a gentler tone of that.
Yep, I'm aware historically, though it amuses me how often people get confused about his gender when he wears pink stuff out and about
I definitely agree with your analysis of toxic masculinity. And I believe Robert Webb was saying the same thing you were. But instead of referring to "the stereotype of masculine behavior" as "toxic masculinity" he was insinuating that the whole of masculinity is toxic and should therefore be thrown out.
I like your statement that we are locking men into a cage: How one gender is treated affects the whole human race. When we state that women are lesser creatures only fit for childrearing, we are stating that men can't be caretakers lest they be seen as "womanly." Then we get disdain for men fighting for their rights to be fathers and boys are not even given the opportunity to learn how to nurture. Instead they are taught perseverance and "to never take no for an answer," and that it's ok to use your physicality to win an argument. In turn we get (not all) men who don't know how to have a healthy relationship. They catcall, they manipulate, and in some cases they perpetrate domestic violence. This causes women to feel distrustful of men which perpetuates the "men can't be caretakers" stigma. It also stigmatizes that all domestic violence victims are women, which we know is patently false. This makes men feel embarrassed to come forward, and causes a devastating under-reporting of male domestic violence which makes us think it is not an issue.
I realize that this is one chain of events. It happens in many different ways, but this one way I can think of that the idea of feminism can and does help all genders. I choose to call it feminism because in my belief, it begins with the repression of women.
One way I think we can combat this is to teach our boys to be nurturing and caring and teach our girls to be independent and strong in addition to what society thinks they should know. /soapbox
Sorry its an FB vid link, not many other sources. Webb at the Hay festival, talking about his autobiography. I found this very interesting.
I think this speaks to a crisis in maleness, which is in search of a place to be that is clearly positive and forward looking. I would agree that the typical markers of masculinity seem wither not so positive or not so characteristic these days. For Femininity, there is the option to define oneself in positive opposition to the patriarchal societies we are trying to leave behind, so so for bloke-world. The touchy feely 'new man' is derided in the age of Trump, the 'manosphere', incels and the red pill, but there is no alternate positive goal put in place.
Thought provoking anyway I thought.
I loved this video! I love his comedy and it's so nice to know I'm a fan of his social issues as well.
I completely agree that the concept of "masculinity" is itself toxic. If we were able to define "masculine" as "whatever a man does." That would be one thing, but we have proven unable to do that. I love his thought that the positive aspects of typical masculinity are positive aspects of humans in general, and I would say the same goes for femininity. The ability to be caring, kind, and in tune with emotions are all things that men are capable of and are currently doing in a lot of cases.
Yeah I just picked up the audio book of the autobiography he was referring to last night. He reads it himself and it's pretty powerful.
Great! Did you happen to get it on Audible? I'll have to look there, since I have a couple of credits.
I did yeah!