I finished up my undergrad in CS in 2015 and was required to take a good amount of humanities. This even included a Computing Ethics course that all CS students had to take. I may have been...
I finished up my undergrad in CS in 2015 and was required to take a good amount of humanities. This even included a Computing Ethics course that all CS students had to take. I may have been exposed a bit more than others because I minored in philosophy but I think the program I went through gave a good taste of everything. I'm not sure how the vast majority of other programs work but I an only imagine it's not just a bunch of coding classes.
But to your main point, I do agree. Empathy is lacking from what I can tell in the tech world. Looking at the results of the 2018 Stack Overflow survey are a bit surprising. From macro issues like an alarming number of developers willing to produce unethical code and a low priority on the industry they are contributing to as well as micro issues like a lack of respect for front end development and user experience. I'm sure the demographics are a bit skewed considering where the survey is provided, but it's still an interesting anecdote.
I'm a professional engineer that went to a Canadian university, granted a while ago now. That was not my experience at all. Lots of engineers purposely took options outside of tech/math/science....
...considering how ingrained the idea of "STEM at all costs, fuck everything else" is in our education system,...
I'm a professional engineer that went to a Canadian university, granted a while ago now. That was not my experience at all. Lots of engineers purposely took options outside of tech/math/science. Ethics and basic law (tort and contract) were required classes. Human-computer interaction courses were take by lots of people (I only took one, but a lot of my classmates did more).
Still, I don't believe ethics (and empathy) can be taught at a post secondary level. By then, you either have those values or don't.
I think that this is something that has changed significantly in the last few years. I'm in one of the best Engineering schools in the US for many fields and top 10 CS; when you get talking with...
I think that this is something that has changed significantly in the last few years. I'm in one of the best Engineering schools in the US for many fields and top 10 CS; when you get talking with people about classes that are required there is a prevailing view that the only point of most non-STEM classes is to pad your GPA. On top of this feeling, within the last two years the ethics requirement for the majority of, if not all, engineering majors has been removed.
I think that there is a case to be made for trying to teach ethics at the post-secondary level. I think that @deadaluspark is close to the mark I think, but I would like to see a class taught on what the repercussions of seemingly benign technologies have been. Most people here just like to think that whatever they do can'd do anything bad by itself, so they can absolve themselves of all responsibility in their mind when it's used as a part of something less than savory.
That might have something to do with US out-of-pocket education costs. When you're paying $500/credit, it's easy to make the utilitarian calculation that time spent on ethics, history, governance,...
That might have something to do with US out-of-pocket education costs. When you're paying $500/credit, it's easy to make the utilitarian calculation that time spent on ethics, history, governance, etc. isn't justified.
If the value of learning is reduced to human capital formation, then colleges will produce narrow technical specialists who make ideal, unquestioning, business tools.
Amen! That's not personal opinion, that's the oracle of the god of truth. Many engineers, especially from what I gather from my experience participating at HN, seem to have the view where "if you...
Amen! That's not personal opinion, that's the oracle of the god of truth. Many engineers, especially from what I gather from my experience participating at HN, seem to have the view where "if you don't do filthy thing X, someone else will do and get paid for it; so just do X and complain about it ten years later". This sort of person is quite prone to be the next Eichmann should similar conditions appear. There's this horrible HN thread where one can find about what sort of bad one can do, with a one-to-many relationship, as a programmer. Or one can look at Cambridge Analitica to see how some soulless script-kiddies can fuck the world over. But the companies want and pay those who'll implement whatever is thrown at them, and for some reason universities help that not providing the engineer with the devices with which to estimate the outcome of their work and value it according to an ethical scale.
Uh, what? No they are absolutely not, compsci students resist the shit out of being put through ethics classes and bitterly complain on end of semester feedbacks because in order to have the...
Uh, what? No they are absolutely not, compsci students resist the shit out of being put through ethics classes and bitterly complain on end of semester feedbacks because in order to have the degree accredited they have to do at least 1 unit which contains a small portion ethics. They have to be dragged through it kicking and screaming.
A teacher of ethics says students are clamouring for more ethics teaching? Anecdotal at best, self-serving bullshit at worst.
Perhaps the article could've focused more on why students need it instead of how they're looking for it. I think what you described is exactly the problem.
Perhaps the article could've focused more on why students need it instead of how they're looking for it. I think what you described is exactly the problem.
It has been about 15 years since my Computer Science education, but I absolutely credit my earlier education in the humanities (I'd completed three years of BA prior to changing majors). From what...
It has been about 15 years since my Computer Science education, but I absolutely credit my earlier education in the humanities (I'd completed three years of BA prior to changing majors). From what I remember of the ethics classes then, they were much more focused on the message of "hacking is bad" than anything to do with the current ethical conundrums facing us due to changing technology.
Personally I was hoping for some concrete examples of where ethical decisions must be made in CS/programming. From my recent memory, here are some examples I've found: Do Robots Deserve Rights?...
Personally I was hoping for some concrete examples of where ethical decisions must be made in CS/programming. From my recent memory, here are some examples I've found:
Moral Machine - MIT
What ethics should be programmed into an AI that may be forced to make moral decisions? (e.g. self-driving cars that cannot avoid an accident, but could choose who is "sacrificed")
Dark Patterns
UI/UX design patterns that deliberately make it difficult or impossible to perform an action that harms a company's margins and/or trick users into giving away more resources or autonomy.
A couple real life examples I've seen is more about how your product will ultimately be used, or corrupted. For example, designing mapping/surveying software that will ultimately be used to...
A couple real life examples I've seen is more about how your product will ultimately be used, or corrupted. For example, designing mapping/surveying software that will ultimately be used to program "war game" strategies in drones. Another is disaster recovery broadcast sensor nodes that can also be deployed to malls to send "coupons" to mobiles passing by.
Edit to add: Thanks for the examples, they're pretty interesting!
Article title is a bit sensationalist; the only students in the article, only some of which are compsci majors, are already taking an ethics course, from a single professor at a single university.
Article title is a bit sensationalist; the only students in the article, only some of which are compsci majors, are already taking an ethics course, from a single professor at a single university.
What is sensationalist about it? It poses a statement and answers it, a bit briefly, but it gives answers none the less. It gives reasons why students are opting to think of the ethics behind...
What is sensationalist about it? It poses a statement and answers it, a bit briefly, but it gives answers none the less. It gives reasons why students are opting to think of the ethics behind computing and why they should care. Also touches on Canada's approach / interest in the social aspects of AI.
Is it? I guess I can add the opinion tag, but the article is a summary of the prof's interview (available near the top), so I thought it was pretty self explanatory what to expect. She's...
Is it? I guess I can add the opinion tag, but the article is a summary of the prof's interview (available near the top), so I thought it was pretty self explanatory what to expect.
She's describing how and why students are choosing her ethics class.
Coming at this from the perspective of professionals in the field, there are professional CIS societies, such as the Association for Computing Machinery, that promote a strong code of professional...
Coming at this from the perspective of professionals in the field, there are professional CIS societies, such as the Association for Computing Machinery, that promote a strong code of professional ethics to mirror ethical standards for engineers of tangible goods.
[My feeling is that these are much too narrow in scope, and neglect to address questions like, "Do I have an obligation to ask what my code fragment will be used to build?", "Is it better to optimize efficiency to save energy, or add processing overhead to build a more accessible interface for millions of people?"]
I really enjoyed reading these. Thanks for sharing. They are really specific and I can see what you mean by too narrow. I think it's really hard to balance a topic too broad that no one ever...
I really enjoyed reading these. Thanks for sharing.
They are really specific and I can see what you mean by too narrow. I think it's really hard to balance a topic too broad that no one ever thinks they're the "bad" and too specific that people can't relate it back to their work.
Current undergrad at a school you’ve heard of running a reading group on sociology and ethics in computer science. The CS department doesn’t offer a tech ethics course, but someone I know worked...
Current undergrad at a school you’ve heard of running a reading group on sociology and ethics in computer science. The CS department doesn’t offer a tech ethics course, but someone I know worked on building one for her thesis last year. We do offer a technology and society minor, where students are required to take a sociology class about the study of technology, but nothing’s required for CS majors.
Resources already posted are great! Any suggestions for topics/case studies/ideas we can use for weekly meetings?
I would suggest just keeping up with current events. I think I'm still under an NDA, so I can't be too specific, but the resources I used for writing ethnics questions have just been current...
Resources already posted are great! Any suggestions for topics/case studies/ideas we can use for weekly meetings?
I would suggest just keeping up with current events. I think I'm still under an NDA, so I can't be too specific, but the resources I used for writing ethnics questions have just been current events.
I would also consider other fields, like medical, and see how they apply their ethnics. Medicine has started using a lot more technology in lots of places, from record keeping to surgery, and they have a tonne of use cases.
Ethics are also a bit relative I think, it'd be nice to look into economic incentives so as to choose those over the ubiquitous Facebook trackers (much as I loathe the privacy violations of the...
Ethics are also a bit relative I think, it'd be nice to look into economic incentives so as to choose those over the ubiquitous Facebook trackers (much as I loathe the privacy violations of the internet)
I don't know if this comment was intended to be malicious or just a convenient example of someone being unconcerned with ethics, but I don't think it'll lead to anything productive regardless. It...
I don't know if this comment was intended to be malicious or just a convenient example of someone being unconcerned with ethics, but I don't think it'll lead to anything productive regardless. It was already causing things to go off the rails a bit in here, so I'm going to remove it (and the responses).
I finished up my undergrad in CS in 2015 and was required to take a good amount of humanities. This even included a Computing Ethics course that all CS students had to take. I may have been exposed a bit more than others because I minored in philosophy but I think the program I went through gave a good taste of everything. I'm not sure how the vast majority of other programs work but I an only imagine it's not just a bunch of coding classes.
But to your main point, I do agree. Empathy is lacking from what I can tell in the tech world. Looking at the results of the 2018 Stack Overflow survey are a bit surprising. From macro issues like an alarming number of developers willing to produce unethical code and a low priority on the industry they are contributing to as well as micro issues like a lack of respect for front end development and user experience. I'm sure the demographics are a bit skewed considering where the survey is provided, but it's still an interesting anecdote.
I'm a professional engineer that went to a Canadian university, granted a while ago now. That was not my experience at all. Lots of engineers purposely took options outside of tech/math/science. Ethics and basic law (tort and contract) were required classes. Human-computer interaction courses were take by lots of people (I only took one, but a lot of my classmates did more).
Still, I don't believe ethics (and empathy) can be taught at a post secondary level. By then, you either have those values or don't.
I think that this is something that has changed significantly in the last few years. I'm in one of the best Engineering schools in the US for many fields and top 10 CS; when you get talking with people about classes that are required there is a prevailing view that the only point of most non-STEM classes is to pad your GPA. On top of this feeling, within the last two years the ethics requirement for the majority of, if not all, engineering majors has been removed.
I think that there is a case to be made for trying to teach ethics at the post-secondary level. I think that @deadaluspark is close to the mark I think, but I would like to see a class taught on what the repercussions of seemingly benign technologies have been. Most people here just like to think that whatever they do can'd do anything bad by itself, so they can absolve themselves of all responsibility in their mind when it's used as a part of something less than savory.
That might have something to do with US out-of-pocket education costs. When you're paying $500/credit, it's easy to make the utilitarian calculation that time spent on ethics, history, governance, etc. isn't justified.
Humanities instruction in the US is subject to both the marketization of higher education, and ideological attacks.
If the value of learning is reduced to human capital formation, then colleges will produce narrow technical specialists who make ideal, unquestioning, business tools.
This type of thinking is unfortunately way too common, and not limited to STEMs.
I believe this would be very beneficial too. Often times people just don't see how their work can be misapplied.
Amen! That's not personal opinion, that's the oracle of the god of truth. Many engineers, especially from what I gather from my experience participating at HN, seem to have the view where "if you don't do filthy thing X, someone else will do and get paid for it; so just do X and complain about it ten years later". This sort of person is quite prone to be the next Eichmann should similar conditions appear. There's this horrible HN thread where one can find about what sort of bad one can do, with a one-to-many relationship, as a programmer. Or one can look at Cambridge Analitica to see how some soulless script-kiddies can fuck the world over. But the companies want and pay those who'll implement whatever is thrown at them, and for some reason universities help that not providing the engineer with the devices with which to estimate the outcome of their work and value it according to an ethical scale.
Uh, what? No they are absolutely not, compsci students resist the shit out of being put through ethics classes and bitterly complain on end of semester feedbacks because in order to have the degree accredited they have to do at least 1 unit which contains a small portion ethics. They have to be dragged through it kicking and screaming.
A teacher of ethics says students are clamouring for more ethics teaching? Anecdotal at best, self-serving bullshit at worst.
Perhaps the article could've focused more on why students need it instead of how they're looking for it. I think what you described is exactly the problem.
It has been about 15 years since my Computer Science education, but I absolutely credit my earlier education in the humanities (I'd completed three years of BA prior to changing majors). From what I remember of the ethics classes then, they were much more focused on the message of "hacking is bad" than anything to do with the current ethical conundrums facing us due to changing technology.
Personally I was hoping for some concrete examples of where ethical decisions must be made in CS/programming. From my recent memory, here are some examples I've found:
Do Robots Deserve Rights? What if Machines Become Conscious?
Does a programmed self-aware artificial conscious deserve the same rights as an organically-developed conscious?
Moral Machine - MIT
What ethics should be programmed into an AI that may be forced to make moral decisions? (e.g. self-driving cars that cannot avoid an accident, but could choose who is "sacrificed")
Dark Patterns
UI/UX design patterns that deliberately make it difficult or impossible to perform an action that harms a company's margins and/or trick users into giving away more resources or autonomy.
Interested in hearing other examples.
A couple real life examples I've seen is more about how your product will ultimately be used, or corrupted. For example, designing mapping/surveying software that will ultimately be used to program "war game" strategies in drones. Another is disaster recovery broadcast sensor nodes that can also be deployed to malls to send "coupons" to mobiles passing by.
Edit to add: Thanks for the examples, they're pretty interesting!
Article title is a bit sensationalist; the only students in the article, only some of which are compsci majors, are already taking an ethics course, from a single professor at a single university.
What is sensationalist about it? It poses a statement and answers it, a bit briefly, but it gives answers none the less. It gives reasons why students are opting to think of the ethics behind computing and why they should care. Also touches on Canada's approach / interest in the social aspects of AI.
Is it? I guess I can add the opinion tag, but the article is a summary of the prof's interview (available near the top), so I thought it was pretty self explanatory what to expect.
She's describing how and why students are choosing her ethics class.
Coming at this from the perspective of professionals in the field, there are professional CIS societies, such as the Association for Computing Machinery, that promote a strong code of professional ethics to mirror ethical standards for engineers of tangible goods.
They have a couple of interesting "Ask an Ethicist" articles:
https://ethics.acm.org/integrity-project/ask-an-ethicist/ask-an-ethicist-vulnerability-disclosure/
https://ethics.acm.org/integrity-project/ask-an-ethicist/ask-an-ethicist-grey-hat-hacking/
[My feeling is that these are much too narrow in scope, and neglect to address questions like, "Do I have an obligation to ask what my code fragment will be used to build?", "Is it better to optimize efficiency to save energy, or add processing overhead to build a more accessible interface for millions of people?"]
I really enjoyed reading these. Thanks for sharing.
They are really specific and I can see what you mean by too narrow. I think it's really hard to balance a topic too broad that no one ever thinks they're the "bad" and too specific that people can't relate it back to their work.
Current undergrad at a school you’ve heard of running a reading group on sociology and ethics in computer science. The CS department doesn’t offer a tech ethics course, but someone I know worked on building one for her thesis last year. We do offer a technology and society minor, where students are required to take a sociology class about the study of technology, but nothing’s required for CS majors.
Resources already posted are great! Any suggestions for topics/case studies/ideas we can use for weekly meetings?
I would suggest just keeping up with current events. I think I'm still under an NDA, so I can't be too specific, but the resources I used for writing ethnics questions have just been current events.
I would also consider other fields, like medical, and see how they apply their ethnics. Medicine has started using a lot more technology in lots of places, from record keeping to surgery, and they have a tonne of use cases.
Ethics are also a bit relative I think, it'd be nice to look into economic incentives so as to choose those over the ubiquitous Facebook trackers (much as I loathe the privacy violations of the internet)
I don't know if this comment was intended to be malicious or just a convenient example of someone being unconcerned with ethics, but I don't think it'll lead to anything productive regardless. It was already causing things to go off the rails a bit in here, so I'm going to remove it (and the responses).
sorry about linking it here