I hope to be in the same boat as far as actively participating goes. I'm mostly a lurker on reddit (barely breaking 1k karma on my main or my alts despite having the accounts for years). I do...
I hope to be in the same boat as far as actively participating goes. I'm mostly a lurker on reddit (barely breaking 1k karma on my main or my alts despite having the accounts for years). I do enjoy the comments sections there but it takes so much finagling to find a balance. I constantly have to change the sort of the comments so I can see what's happening off the band wagon. Even the small niche subs I like seem super susceptible to hive mind. I think having a downvote button and a culture of "love that hate that, my team your team, red fish blue fish" really doesn't bring the best in interesting conversation.
Here on Tildes though I don't get that vibe and I think that's what makes me more willing to comment. But we'll see. Time will tell.
That's not just a reddit thing, but yeah. That's kinda how online discourse tends to be, in that it's not really discourse. It's more of a performance for a participatory audience.
That's not just a reddit thing, but yeah. That's kinda how online discourse tends to be, in that it's not really discourse. It's more of a performance for a participatory audience.
You know, I'm a chronic lurker (I think this may actually be my first Tildes comment), but that's an interesting perspective that I've never thought of. I basically browse reddit for the comments,...
You know, I'm a chronic lurker (I think this may actually be my first Tildes comment), but that's an interesting perspective that I've never thought of. I basically browse reddit for the comments, and less so for the actual content being commented on. I'm subbed to a lot of the AskReddit, BestOf, and other subs that are pure talk, and no linked content at all. I'm finding myself needing to make a sort of paradigm shift browsing Tildes, because the discussion is much shorter with fewer comments overall.
On the other hand, I rarely ever comment on Reddit because of the open-forum factor. I don't really like the idea that anyone, anywhere in the world, can openly see everything I said 3 years ago; and a lot of interesting threads are so saturated that conversely, no one in the actual thread will ever see my comment on the topic anyway. So rather than changing how I speak on other platforms, I'm moreso seeing that there is actually an opportunity for me to participate here, rather than just keep quiet and stick to reading what other people have to say.
Interesting. I'd never really considered that a new platform with a very similar layout could convert a lurker into a contributor. You seem to write well and your thoughts are clearly stated, so...
Interesting. I'd never really considered that a new platform with a very similar layout could convert a lurker into a contributor. You seem to write well and your thoughts are clearly stated, so it would be a shame if you only lurked. That may well be an unanticipated (by me, at least) advantage here, one of many I've noticed so far.
Oh that wasn't meant to be a callout either. Just that it's pretty much the case everywhere online. When people tweet at each other they don't seem to be really trying to communicate. Same with...
Oh that wasn't meant to be a callout either. Just that it's pretty much the case everywhere online. When people tweet at each other they don't seem to be really trying to communicate. Same with public conversations on facebook or tumblr. It's all written for the people watching.
It hasn't changed how I converse so much but I am much less likely to mash the downvote button. I've always tried to have a civil conversation but I definitely was quick to downvote opinions I...
It hasn't changed how I converse so much but I am much less likely to mash the downvote button. I've always tried to have a civil conversation but I definitely was quick to downvote opinions I disagreed with. I've also tried to upvoted opposing opinions that are well presented more.
I don't understand why you'd upvote well-presented opposing opinions. Some opinions are just bad and dangerous, but certain groups have a talent for dressing them up as rational and reasonable....
I don't understand why you'd upvote well-presented opposing opinions. Some opinions are just bad and dangerous, but certain groups have a talent for dressing them up as rational and reasonable. Look at "race realist" or "gender critical" arguments for example.
I don't think we should be fetishising "well presented" arguments as universally useful. A well presented argument helps you convince people, and that makes a well presented shitty opinion all the more dangerous.
Agreed for the most part, but I think he's probably referring to arguments that are presented with facts and sources that go against your current opinion. I used to have the opinion that AAVE...
Agreed for the most part, but I think he's probably referring to arguments that are presented with facts and sources that go against your current opinion. I used to have the opinion that AAVE didn't really exist; black people just talked that way because they were raised with it. But that's what makes it a legit dialect: it's spoken by a great many people as their primary dialect, therefore it deserves recognition and a name. I was taught with facts and legitimate research, and I changed my previously uninformed opinion on AAVE.
If you have an opinion based entirely on facts and solid sources or research, then it makes sense to ignore dissenting opinions that do not supply the same.
That's fair enough, but I'd call that argument "supported" rather than "well presented". "well presented" just sounds like well-worded and emphatic to me. Even with a supported argument, it's...
That's fair enough, but I'd call that argument "supported" rather than "well presented". "well presented" just sounds like well-worded and emphatic to me. Even with a supported argument, it's important to check the sources closely before you go changing your mind or supporting your opposition. But yeah I think for the most part you and I are on the same page.
It seemed to me "well presented" stipulated "well supported," but that probably wasn't a good supposition knowing internet comments, so I should have clarified.
It seemed to me "well presented" stipulated "well supported," but that probably wasn't a good supposition knowing internet comments, so I should have clarified.
I don't think just because someone disagrees with me they have a dangerous opinion. Not every debate I have is about gender or politics. It could be about whether it's still necessary to leave an...
I don't think just because someone disagrees with me they have a dangerous opinion. Not every debate I have is about gender or politics. It could be about whether it's still necessary to leave an empty line at the end of text files it whether to put a space after function and the parentheses when declaring an anonymous function. Many topics do not necessarily have a correct answer and a dangerous answer but I find because they may have a generally dissenting opinion that goes against the popular opinion if the community they tend to get downvoted below threshold despite contributing a well thought out position.
I agree it's totally situational. Supporting opposing but well presented arguments just rings alarm bells for me because I get nervous of the "free market place of ideas"-style ideology which...
I agree it's totally situational. Supporting opposing but well presented arguments just rings alarm bells for me because I get nervous of the "free market place of ideas"-style ideology which allows dangerous ideas to propagate. I didn't mean to accuse you of that, I guess I'm just pointing out that imo an argument shouldn't be judged on its presentation first.
I don't think it's changed how I write online, but it's definitely made me aware of the difference between how I write here and how I write in other places online. When I write something here,...
I don't think it's changed how I write online, but it's definitely made me aware of the difference between how I write here and how I write in other places online. When I write something here, unless it's kinda an off-the-cuff reply I tend to write more. I feel there's a certain expectation of being more in-depth here, because there's such a focus on quality over quantity. When I write something here, I actually expect the people reading it to read the whole thing, and put thought into what they write back. Also, partially because it's smaller, it doesn't feel like you're playing for a crowd. People are trying to communicate genuinely, and it's good.
I've realized that's not the case on other platforms. The amount of thought I put into my own comments and the amount of thought I expect in return is so much lower. The expectation of respect in other places is also much lower elsewhere. Plus, people are always playing to the crowd. It's like it's a competition all the time, and there's less emphasis on conversing with the people you're talking to and more emphasis on presenting your conversation for people who aren't involved.
I don't post here the same way I would on reddit. There, I'm not above a cheap image or gif post that relates to a comment if I think it's funny, although I really don't care much about karma. I...
I don't post here the same way I would on reddit. There, I'm not above a cheap image or gif post that relates to a comment if I think it's funny, although I really don't care much about karma. I post in one sports subreddit a lot there, so sometimes those things are a bit more relevant. But I don't think reddit is "worth" the kinds of comments I would post here, which is mostly lengthy replies about subjects I'm intimately familiar with, because they're rarely taken seriously or even seen on such a busy site. Unless I browse "new," I'm seeing comment sections that are 10+ hours old. Here I can get in on conversations just as they start, so I'm much more cognizant of making my posts worthwhile.
Definitely not. It has, however, been significantly less toxic, which makes other social media platforms easier to deal with. So while my "social media voice", if you will, hasn't really changed...
Definitely not. It has, however, been significantly less toxic, which makes other social media platforms easier to deal with. So while my "social media voice", if you will, hasn't really changed much, my attitude certainly has, which I'm grateful for. I'm also less likely to delete a comment I've spent time working on because I'm not dreading some asshat coming along and shitting all over it while a bunch of other asshats downvote me because they disagree with my opinion, and I'm also not dragged into bullshit arguments where someone litters their replies with strawman arguments and "no true Scotsman!!!!1!!111!" remarks.
Seriously, this site has had some tense moments at times, but otherwise it's generally a friendly and welcoming environment for civilized discussion. It's nice to actually be able to hit that submit button without hesitation.
My Reddit activity has just dropped of the chart. I used to post and comment a lot, but much less now. I believe that is because the aim towards civility on Tildes has just raised my expectations...
My Reddit activity has just dropped of the chart. I used to post and comment a lot, but much less now. I believe that is because the aim towards civility on Tildes has just raised my expectations of other sites, and they do not meet the mark.
I have been more successful (more upvoted) with my comments on HN, and this may be due to learning from discussions and standards set on Tildes.
Yeah, in that I've practically stopped using reddit. I wouldn't say my comment style is that much different here than it was there, but then that's the reason I like this site. Too many of the...
Yeah, in that I've practically stopped using reddit. I wouldn't say my comment style is that much different here than it was there, but then that's the reason I like this site. Too many of the subs I used to frequent suffer from cases of Eternal September, or recently, coordinated attacks on discourse, for me to want to participate when there's an alternative.
Yeah actually, now that I think about it, it has. I type and think slower and more carefully now then I used to, and I find myself thinking about my own arguments more critically - as in, am I...
Yeah actually, now that I think about it, it has. I type and think slower and more carefully now then I used to, and I find myself thinking about my own arguments more critically - as in, am I saying something useful, am I making a pointless appeal to emotion, etc. And it's crazy, while I post here frequently~ish, I'm not someone who stays here religiously. Pretty cool actually :)
Honestly, I think this is in big part due to Tildes being in Beta, and more importantly bring invite-only. I've heard of users on Reddit being vetted to ensure they aren't trolls before giving...
Honestly, I think this is in big part due to Tildes being in Beta, and more importantly bring invite-only.
I've heard of users on Reddit being vetted to ensure they aren't trolls before giving away an invite. When I gave away the 5 invites I had, I actually went through each person's history and made sure they commented positive, insightful content. If people are doing this, it's no wonder Tildes is so enjoyable right now.
What does the future hold though? When Beta ends and it's open to the public, will this change? I fear the answer might be yes. But everything on Tildes has been managed extraordinarily by the admins thus far, so I remain optimistic and excited.
I really do enjoy how we are all interacting with one another.
Ah, thank you. Alpha makes more sense. Also, I think that since Tildes doesn’t track total vote counts, that should detract the motivation of shit posters and trolls, at least somewhat.
Ah, thank you. Alpha makes more sense.
Also, I think that since Tildes doesn’t track total vote counts, that should detract the motivation of shit posters and trolls, at least somewhat.
It has influenced the way I view other forums and I have found I engage with them much less. I'm still on Reddit to get my political news aggregated and for NFL news. I have basically quit...
It has influenced the way I view other forums and I have found I engage with them much less.
I'm still on Reddit to get my political news aggregated and for NFL news.
I have basically quit ResetEra for my gaming news completely because it became clear to me that it was... an unhealthy place to engage with.
I hope to be in the same boat as far as actively participating goes. I'm mostly a lurker on reddit (barely breaking 1k karma on my main or my alts despite having the accounts for years). I do enjoy the comments sections there but it takes so much finagling to find a balance. I constantly have to change the sort of the comments so I can see what's happening off the band wagon. Even the small niche subs I like seem super susceptible to hive mind. I think having a downvote button and a culture of "love that hate that, my team your team, red fish blue fish" really doesn't bring the best in interesting conversation.
Here on Tildes though I don't get that vibe and I think that's what makes me more willing to comment. But we'll see. Time will tell.
That's not just a reddit thing, but yeah. That's kinda how online discourse tends to be, in that it's not really discourse. It's more of a performance for a participatory audience.
You know, I'm a chronic lurker (I think this may actually be my first Tildes comment), but that's an interesting perspective that I've never thought of. I basically browse reddit for the comments, and less so for the actual content being commented on. I'm subbed to a lot of the AskReddit, BestOf, and other subs that are pure talk, and no linked content at all. I'm finding myself needing to make a sort of paradigm shift browsing Tildes, because the discussion is much shorter with fewer comments overall.
On the other hand, I rarely ever comment on Reddit because of the open-forum factor. I don't really like the idea that anyone, anywhere in the world, can openly see everything I said 3 years ago; and a lot of interesting threads are so saturated that conversely, no one in the actual thread will ever see my comment on the topic anyway. So rather than changing how I speak on other platforms, I'm moreso seeing that there is actually an opportunity for me to participate here, rather than just keep quiet and stick to reading what other people have to say.
Interesting. I'd never really considered that a new platform with a very similar layout could convert a lurker into a contributor. You seem to write well and your thoughts are clearly stated, so it would be a shame if you only lurked. That may well be an unanticipated (by me, at least) advantage here, one of many I've noticed so far.
Oh that wasn't meant to be a callout either. Just that it's pretty much the case everywhere online. When people tweet at each other they don't seem to be really trying to communicate. Same with public conversations on facebook or tumblr. It's all written for the people watching.
It hasn't changed how I converse so much but I am much less likely to mash the downvote button. I've always tried to have a civil conversation but I definitely was quick to downvote opinions I disagreed with. I've also tried to upvoted opposing opinions that are well presented more.
I don't understand why you'd upvote well-presented opposing opinions. Some opinions are just bad and dangerous, but certain groups have a talent for dressing them up as rational and reasonable. Look at "race realist" or "gender critical" arguments for example.
I don't think we should be fetishising "well presented" arguments as universally useful. A well presented argument helps you convince people, and that makes a well presented shitty opinion all the more dangerous.
Agreed for the most part, but I think he's probably referring to arguments that are presented with facts and sources that go against your current opinion. I used to have the opinion that AAVE didn't really exist; black people just talked that way because they were raised with it. But that's what makes it a legit dialect: it's spoken by a great many people as their primary dialect, therefore it deserves recognition and a name. I was taught with facts and legitimate research, and I changed my previously uninformed opinion on AAVE.
If you have an opinion based entirely on facts and solid sources or research, then it makes sense to ignore dissenting opinions that do not supply the same.
That's fair enough, but I'd call that argument "supported" rather than "well presented". "well presented" just sounds like well-worded and emphatic to me. Even with a supported argument, it's important to check the sources closely before you go changing your mind or supporting your opposition. But yeah I think for the most part you and I are on the same page.
It seemed to me "well presented" stipulated "well supported," but that probably wasn't a good supposition knowing internet comments, so I should have clarified.
I don't think just because someone disagrees with me they have a dangerous opinion. Not every debate I have is about gender or politics. It could be about whether it's still necessary to leave an empty line at the end of text files it whether to put a space after
functionand the parentheses when declaring an anonymous function. Many topics do not necessarily have a correct answer and a dangerous answer but I find because they may have a generally dissenting opinion that goes against the popular opinion if the community they tend to get downvoted below threshold despite contributing a well thought out position.I agree it's totally situational. Supporting opposing but well presented arguments just rings alarm bells for me because I get nervous of the "free market place of ideas"-style ideology which allows dangerous ideas to propagate. I didn't mean to accuse you of that, I guess I'm just pointing out that imo an argument shouldn't be judged on its presentation first.
I don't think it's changed how I write online, but it's definitely made me aware of the difference between how I write here and how I write in other places online. When I write something here, unless it's kinda an off-the-cuff reply I tend to write more. I feel there's a certain expectation of being more in-depth here, because there's such a focus on quality over quantity. When I write something here, I actually expect the people reading it to read the whole thing, and put thought into what they write back. Also, partially because it's smaller, it doesn't feel like you're playing for a crowd. People are trying to communicate genuinely, and it's good.
I've realized that's not the case on other platforms. The amount of thought I put into my own comments and the amount of thought I expect in return is so much lower. The expectation of respect in other places is also much lower elsewhere. Plus, people are always playing to the crowd. It's like it's a competition all the time, and there's less emphasis on conversing with the people you're talking to and more emphasis on presenting your conversation for people who aren't involved.
I don't post here the same way I would on reddit. There, I'm not above a cheap image or gif post that relates to a comment if I think it's funny, although I really don't care much about karma. I post in one sports subreddit a lot there, so sometimes those things are a bit more relevant. But I don't think reddit is "worth" the kinds of comments I would post here, which is mostly lengthy replies about subjects I'm intimately familiar with, because they're rarely taken seriously or even seen on such a busy site. Unless I browse "new," I'm seeing comment sections that are 10+ hours old. Here I can get in on conversations just as they start, so I'm much more cognizant of making my posts worthwhile.
Definitely not. It has, however, been significantly less toxic, which makes other social media platforms easier to deal with. So while my "social media voice", if you will, hasn't really changed much, my attitude certainly has, which I'm grateful for. I'm also less likely to delete a comment I've spent time working on because I'm not dreading some asshat coming along and shitting all over it while a bunch of other asshats downvote me because they disagree with my opinion, and I'm also not dragged into bullshit arguments where someone litters their replies with strawman arguments and "no true Scotsman!!!!1!!111!" remarks.
Seriously, this site has had some tense moments at times, but otherwise it's generally a friendly and welcoming environment for civilized discussion. It's nice to actually be able to hit that submit button without hesitation.
My Reddit activity has just dropped of the chart. I used to post and comment a lot, but much less now. I believe that is because the aim towards civility on Tildes has just raised my expectations of other sites, and they do not meet the mark.
I have been more successful (more upvoted) with my comments on HN, and this may be due to learning from discussions and standards set on Tildes.
Edit: clarity
Yeah, in that I've practically stopped using reddit. I wouldn't say my comment style is that much different here than it was there, but then that's the reason I like this site. Too many of the subs I used to frequent suffer from cases of Eternal September, or recently, coordinated attacks on discourse, for me to want to participate when there's an alternative.
Yeah actually, now that I think about it, it has. I type and think slower and more carefully now then I used to, and I find myself thinking about my own arguments more critically - as in, am I saying something useful, am I making a pointless appeal to emotion, etc. And it's crazy, while I post here frequently~ish, I'm not someone who stays here religiously. Pretty cool actually :)
Honestly, I think this is in big part due to Tildes being in Beta, and more importantly bring invite-only.
I've heard of users on Reddit being vetted to ensure they aren't trolls before giving away an invite. When I gave away the 5 invites I had, I actually went through each person's history and made sure they commented positive, insightful content. If people are doing this, it's no wonder Tildes is so enjoyable right now.
What does the future hold though? When Beta ends and it's open to the public, will this change? I fear the answer might be yes. But everything on Tildes has been managed extraordinarily by the admins thus far, so I remain optimistic and excited.
I really do enjoy how we are all interacting with one another.
*alpha, actually. Other than that, I agree with your comment.
Ah, thank you. Alpha makes more sense.
Also, I think that since Tildes doesn’t track total vote counts, that should detract the motivation of shit posters and trolls, at least somewhat.
I've started participating in other places again and I've been trying to write out comments fully and with less snark again.
It has influenced the way I view other forums and I have found I engage with them much less.
I'm still on Reddit to get my political news aggregated and for NFL news.
I have basically quit ResetEra for my gaming news completely because it became clear to me that it was... an unhealthy place to engage with.