My marriage is non-monogamous, and I am considering approaching a friend to propose a relationship with him. I would appreciate some advice from monogamous people (and reasonable people in general.)
I won't bury the lede - my friend isn't non-monogamous or polyamorous, and that's the crux of the issue. At the least, he has never really considered non-monogamy before.
My (31F) marriage is uniquely suited for non-monogamy and has been for ten years strong, and my husband (30M) is entirely comfortable with what I'm proposing here. My biggest concern is the risk to my friend’s (30M) feelings and his perspective. So, before I speak to him about it, rather than seeking advice exclusively from people who practice ENM, I am actually curious what everyone might think of the situation. I also think Tildes probably has the only pool of monogamous people on the internet who would be interested in discussing this topic respectfully and approaching it with curiosity or empathy rather than disgust - I know it's a strange topic for most people.
Essentially, over the past two years I've been spending more and more time with a friend of mine. My husband is a pretty good friend of his, but they are not extremely close or best friends, they know each other through me. My friend doesn't date a lot, and we simply find ourselves drawn to spending a lot of time together, having very long conversations late at night, and doing things like going on a few vacations alone together. We haven't discussed it, but there is an overwhelming sense that we would probably date, had I been single when we met. He's very respectful of me and my marriage, but sometimes we each end up innocently flirting with the other - small compliments about our appearances, comments about how our “love languages” tend to be similar, etc. A few weeks ago he asked me if my husband and I have an open marriage (I don't often share that aspect of my life, my husband and I have been functionally “monogamous” since I've known my friend, and we haven't dated anyone else for quite some time.) I answered by saying that I actually do have an open marriage, yes. His question caught me off guard. I didn't expect him to ever ask because he doesn't seem like the type of person who would be interested in non-monogamy. So, I asked him what he thinks about non-monogamy, and he said he hasn't thought about it much, and has always been monogamous in past relationships. I wanted to think more about what to do next, so at the time I didn't let him know that I was specifically attracted to him.
Certainly, it may be very wise to accept that my friend is likely just monogamous, as most people tend to be, and simply continue on with our normal platonic friendship as it is. However, recently I'm finding it harder to contain my feelings on the matter, and he doesn't exactly make it any easier on me, because I really think he engages as well. Recently a mutual friend asked me if something was going on between us because she noticed him flirting with me. A couple of friends have agreed that the chemistry seems undeniable, so I don't think this is entirely one-sided.
At the least, I think I need to be honest with him that I'm attracted to him and open to some kind of romantic/sexual relationship with him. That way, if he says this makes him uncomfortable, I know I have to adjust my expectations and put proper boundaries in place. Of course, my hope is that he might be interested as well, at which point we can discuss what that would look like, but that's a separate topic because first I want to approach this with caution and respect.
I feel that it's really the sexual element that is up in the air. We already spend a lot of time together, and any purely monogamous person would probably already consider our behavior to be “emotional cheating,” if it happened to their marriage. I don't think most male/female friendships involve endless late night conversations, casual flirting, and prioritizing each other over other friends. To me, adding sex to the relationship seems like a no-brainer since we seem attracted to each other, but obviously most people wouldn't feel the same way.
Also, imagine the same situation, but with the genders flipped. We've all heard stories of unfortunate women who thought they had a great friendship with a man, only to eventually find out that the guy had been pining after her sexually for some time. My worst fear here is making my friend feel like our relationship was shallow, or that I was just trying to get something from him. But I didn't end up here on purpose, I just found myself here somehow - and I also would be more than happy to remain just friends with him if that's what he wants.
What would you think if you were a fairly monogamous person, and your close, non-monogamous friend admitted they have feelings for you? Would you be offended or hurt? Do you think there is a tactful way to bring it up? Would you prefer they never tell you, so you can just continue your friendship as normal, or for them to just move on without you if they can't let go of the idea?
Of course, the only real answer is that I won't know how he feels unless I ask him about it. I just thought I would talk this out with some kind strangers before jumping in. My brain seems quite wired for non-monogamy, and sometimes I struggle to see things from the perspective of monogamous people. Jealousy is not an emotion I have experienced often in relationships. I am flattered when any of my male or female friends admit attraction to me. Some of my friend groups are very queer and/or polyamorous, where behavior like dating your friends or being friends with ex-partners is fairly typical. But this friend is from a part of my life where non-monogamy is not as much of a given. I am also a bit worried about what our monogamous friends would think, as we do spend a lot of time in the same group of friends. I am worried that if he were to meet someone in the future who he wanted a relationship with, the woman wouldn't be comfortable having me around in the group, especially if I am still practicing non-monogamy at the time. I have many worries. Non-monogamy is complex. But mostly, I feel like this could work.
I know some of you are non-monogamous and I'm definitely interested in your thoughts, but I wanted to specify that I'm open to anyone else's take as well.
I may be uniquely equipped to answer this one out of a lot of people here. I’m a monogamous man in his mid 30s who went through a very similar situation.
I’m friends with a couple who I met through my ex wife. We met while I was married and ended up hanging out a lot. I liked the both of them, but the woman and I had a lot of similar interests. We never really got super close, just hung out as couples. I never really had any attraction to other women while I was married and it wasn’t any different in this case. After I got divorced (infidelity on her part, but entirely unrelated), we started getting closer, and I hung out at their house pretty regularly. I’d known the whole time that they had an open marriage but I never really paid it any mind. She started getting flirtier at this time, and i reciprocated a bit, because I thought she was cool, and because it felt good to feel desired, but I never really thought of pursuing it any further.
She made a few bolder moves that I considered going along with, but ultimately decided that I couldn’t go through with it. I wouldn’t feel comfortable with sleeping with another man’s wife and then hanging out with him afterwards as if nothing happened, even if he was 100% ok with it. I also knew there was no future there. I have no interest in being part of a poly relationship, and long term sexual, uncommitted relationships feel like a waste of time to me. Part of what I like about relationships is a sense of building something together and growing, and casual sexual relationships don’t fufill that need.
I also thought about future partners, and having to explain to them that I had sex with this person in the past and am still friends with her would just complicate things.
I ended up turning her down because of that, but I didn’t feel exploited or anything. I understand that sometimes people think their friends are hot and wouldn’t mind having sex with them. It’s happened to be before too.
Obviously he’s a different person and not all male monogamous people are alike, but I don’t think proposing the idea is offensive; just don’t take it personally if he turns you down.
Is this that unusual? I'm friends with a couple of my exes because we get along as friends but not romantic partners. Not saying you should've handled your situation any differently, I'm just curious why you feel it'd be complicated to be platonic friends with someone you've slept with in the past.
It feels a little different. Being in a relationship and making a mutual decision that you aren't compatible long term but still friends feels like there is very definite closure on the relationship that is unrelated to the new SO.
The situation the commentor describes could potentially play out so that the reason the relationship reverts back to friendship is because of the new SO. Maybe it shouldn't be different, or weird, but it feels that way to me anyway.
In a nutshell "me and this person are friends, we used to date, but stopped for reasons not related to us" vs "me and this person are friends, we used to date (hand wavy poly discussion), and might still have been dating but I wanted to focus on you instead, but we still hang out."
Like a said, maybe it's not rational, but little in the world of dating is strictly rational.
Some people have really strong feelings about their partners being friends with exes. As one of those polyamorous not particularly jealous people, I don't have any sense of how common it is, but I see enough of the "red flag 🚩🚩🚩" style commentary of this behavior and the more extreme "no friendships with other people of the 'opposite sex'" to know it's not rare.
I'm still friends with one of my exes, and my partner is fine with that. Many of my queer friends also remain friends with their exes, although that is probably because our community is much smaller (and, a lot of us start off as friends and then become romantically involved, so there's already that base of friendship).
Maybe this is just me, but I would actually consider it a little bit of a red flag if a future partner wanted me not to be friends with an ex. If my ex is the kind of person I spent x amount of years with, they're probably sombody who I like and deeply value. Of course, I think it would be important to put up some walls between our relationship that don't exist with people I'm just friends with, but I really can't see a problem in remaining friends with an ex if the breakup was healthy and/or mutual.
It’s unusual for me. Virtually all of the people I’ve had romantic relationships with, I no longer have romantic relationships with them for a good reason and have no desire to stay in touch. In the past, I’ve been friends with women I’ve had sex with before, and handling it with new partners has always been complicated. I feel as though I have a responsibility to tell them, but knowing when to do that can be hard, and it understandably makes some of those partners uncomfortable if I’m still friends with them.
I don’t have a hard and fast rule about not continuing to be friends with someone I’ve had sex with, but introducing sex to a relationship definitely complicates it, and it can definitely complicate future relationships, so it’s something I try to think about pretty deeply first.
Yes, it really feels like my friend could have written this post word for word (at least if it ends up in him feeling the same way you did.)
Are you still friends with the couple? If so, did your friendship change at all? I assume she would then cut out the flirting after you let her know it wouldn't be possible?
I am still friends with them, albeit not as close as we once were; mostly because of physical distance more than anything else.
I don’t think our friendship changed at all, at least not from my perspective. She did mostly cut out the very overt flirting, but she was still a little flirty for a while, but that’s just her personality.
I’ve been in a serious committed relationship for 6 months now and I’ve told my girlfriend about the situation, and honestly I’m very glad I didn’t go through with it for both of our sakes.
I dont have much valuable experience to add to @papasquat's very excellent share, but I wanted to highlight this part:
It's not a job interview, but as friends I feel it's valuable to know "where does your friend see himself in 5 years". If he's currently on a mission to find a monogamous partner, spending time having fun with you guys might derail or delay that plan, or he could have fun and then when the right person comes along, they might not understand this journey you shared together and it could hurt. He has to make his own choices of course but this might not be something he's fully thought through, esp if he's clouded by attraction to you right now.
You also mentioned that he's been "intense" in a relationship. Definitely ask him about jealousy, about expectations of focus, and how he handles seeing an ex with someone else. if you yourself don't experience jealousy, it might be hard to imagine how much it can eat away at a person, irrationally, for an extremely long time.
:) you sound to be a very thoughtful and kind friend. If I were your friend, although I'm probably the square-est of them all when it comes to relationships, I would be flattered, and hopefully be in a stable enough point in my life to politely decline. There might have been points in my life where I didn't have all my stuff together and I would have gotten involved against better judgement, and I could then be in a position to hurt others when things don't work out: there's a maturity factor that could only be clear in hindsight.
Finally, there's something monogamous people commonly do: they might become distant in order to firm up boundaries. It could feel hurtful if he feels he can no longer hang out alone, or if he pulls away when he is in a new relationship. It doesn't mean you can't still be friends, just not perhaps as close as right now anymore.
Honestly, a lot of conversations in ENM actually do feel like job interviews! :) There are so many factors to consider and things to clear up that it can almost feel clinical at times. In ENM communities there are jokes about how much administrative work there is, like complex Google calendars.
And I think you're totally right about needing to know the 5 year plan. Part of why this idea feels somewhat realistic is because he just decided to switch careers and is in school for engineering for the next 4 years. He also moved in with his family before starting school because he's been driving his grandmother to all her doctors appointments and such anyway, and so he doesn't have to work while he's focusing on school. I would imagine this isn't exactly the time that most people would be looking to build a life with someone, since he's focusing on himself and his family right now. In 4+ years he'll have his own place, a good job, planning to buy a house after that, etc. and that might be a more natural time to seek and invest in a life partner. I'll definitely ask a lot of questions about this though.
Now, I certainly wouldn't be spending a lot of time at grandma's house, if you know what I mean... So I don't know what the logistics of that look like. But anyway he's just obviously in a period of liminality, transition, and personal growth. And while I'm tempted to feel like it's a positive, I have considered the exact issues you've mentioned (future partners, and potentially being "distracted" by our situation when he could be looking for someone else who has more to give.)
Appreciate you wording your comment in the form of potential questions to ask.
As someone who's strictly monogamous, I will admit that I can't fully understand your situation, but it doesn't fundamentally seem that different from any other new relationship.
That said, it feels to me like the ball in in your court here since you're the one that's married (even if it's an open relationship). If I were in your friend's shoes I would maybe drop a few hints that this is on my mind, as it seems he has, but not cross the boundary of making the first move.
As a quick addendum - you seem to be pretty concerned about some future "what ifs", which is understandable but I will say that there are simply no guarantees. He may very well find a future partner that is not okay with whatever arrangement you have, regardless of if it changes or remains as is. On the other hand, he may not find a partner, or may find one that wants in on the whole thing.
My point is that this is ultimately unknowable, and you must acknowledge and accept the inherent risk if you want to explore the opportunity of this new relationship. That's pretty much true with any new relationship, it's part of what's so exciting (and a little scary)!
Best of luck, hope this was helpful.
Mono guy here. I'm married (and gay) so not an exact fit for your target audience.
Two things stand out to me:
One: Pursuing someone who was already in a relationship was a clear do-not-cross line for me before I was married (and it remains one now, though only in the abstract since I'm not pursuing anyone anymore). At the time I was dating, non-monogamy wasn't really widely known or understood, so the expectation of mutual monogamy was pretty much embedded and went without saying.
I considered it unethical to romantically engage with someone who was already in a relationship. Your friend might have similar boundaries, even though the social landscape looks a little different now. If that's the case, I think it's on you to explicitly take down that boundary for him, rather than hope he'll cross it on his own.
Two: If I were in his shoes, I would also be a little skeptical, honestly. This isn't a knock against you or anyone else who practices non-monogamy, but it would be hard for me to shake the feeling that this could be a pretext for cheating. I'd be wary of engaging someone who said they were in an open marriage unless I could confirm that with the other partner.
I don't take offense or think it's a knock on non-monogamy, and I think anyone should approach these situations with similar skepticism.
Lying about having an open marriage is something that plenty of people have done to their (unaware) affair partners. And even people who do have an open relationship can still cheat. I can't say I understand what would draw someone to cheat, when their whole lifestyle sort of revolves around making cheating unnecessary and avoidable (when it's already unnecessary and avoidable in all relationship styles, of course) but people do it.
And even after verifying that the relationship itself is above board and consensual (like /u/Lia responsibly did before engaging with someone in a poly relationship, as explained in a comment elsewhere in the thread,) there are many other boundaries you can accidentally "violate" without having any knowledge of what they are. In that case it was that the couple had a miscommunication about how emotionally intimate they could be with other partners, or something along those lines.
Caution and skepticism are almost required, in order to do things like this as ethically as possible.
Update
I appreciate everyone who read my post and provided thought-provoking comments, interesting questions, and personal insights. Writing helps me understand myself better and identify what I want from my life. With this topic, I knew my head was far up in the clouds, so reflecting on it through external perspective was incredibly helpful.
I see the friend in question on Thursdays, and this week I knew exactly what wanted to say, so I decided to broach the subject with him. I told him I'm attracted to him, mentioned that I sensed he might be flirting with me a lot more than usual lately, which made me wonder if he had ever considered a relationship with me that would be generally more intimate than a friendship.
He was genuinely very surprised that I'm feeling this way, and I was genuinely surprised at how surprised he was. We both laughed at each other's confused curiosity about what was behind the door I had just cracked open. He confirmed that he is attracted to me, and that he would have “made a move on me” if we had met when we were both single, but he never considered me an option romantically. Apparently the flirting was just for fun, or meant as silly jokes, and he didn't mean to hint at anything serious by it. But the reason he never considered me an option is because he's such a close friend (of me and my husband.) He wasn't offended that I proposed taking this risk, but he seemed very clear that it's not an idea he would've reached on his own. He said it sounds complex, and risky. I agreed.
He was flattered and said he definitely sees it as a compliment. The poor guy’s hands were shaking for about 15 minutes. I acknowledged that this must be a lot to process, considering he apparently didn't expect it whatsoever, and assured him that whatever reaction he has will be received neutrally by me. I clarified that I had not been planning this for long—I had also written him off as "an option” long ago (for the same reason he wrote me off, as well as him having only monogamous relationships in the past.) I maintained that having him as a friend is incredibly important to me, and nothing needs to change. I just needed to express what was on my mind, and he can do with that as he wishes. His initial nerves gradually faded, and we covered some of the very basics of what I've been thinking about.
At some point we got distracted and started talking about mushrooms, which is a common occurrence. The conversation about our relationship felt complete, or at least as complete as it could be until we both had more time to process it. We chatted about our lives for another hour or so. It felt normal. Before we left, I brought up the topic one more time to ask if he was okay (he was,) if he had anything else to say (he didn't,) and if I made him uncomfortable (we both laughed, because it was pretty obvious that the energy between us hadn't changed at all, and we spent the last hour interacting just like we normally do.) No, I didn't make him uncomfortable.
I also told him that if he doesn't need to think more about this, and it's just not a realistic option whatsoever, we can definitely just close the conversation now and consider it a done deal—just friends.
He laughed and said "That sounds drastic. Let's not."
Later that night he sent me a message:
I responded by explaining much of what I had explained to all of you here. He, too, is now blessed with my curious ramblings about different types of intimacy, the nuance of human relationships, and my disinterest in coloring inside the lines when it comes to these things.
I'll try to give him a few days or weeks before introducing anything more or asking about this topic. Probably weeks. He has plenty to process, and we're in the opposite of a rush.
My husband asked if I was disappointed to receive what was essentially a very even-keeled response, or at least, a response that didn't confirm all of the assumptions I had been making, and didn't catapult me into a whirlwind romance. No, I'm not disappointed, and I certainly didn't expect all my assumptions to be confirmed—I'm a chronic daydreamer, it comes with the territory.
In fact, if the answer to my burning question had been “Sounds fun, let's do it,” I would've never been interested in him in the first place. He's an incredibly thoughtful, self-aware, and intelligent person who takes great care in how he treats the people in his life and how he processes his own emotions. I didn't expect (or want) anything other than the careful, respectful response he gave.
Ultimately, I feel pretty fantastic that I was able to be totally honest about everything and still come out of that conversation feeling completely confident in the stability, trust, and respect that is present in our friendship. It's like an awkward weight has been lifted off my shoulders, and even just hours after speaking with him, the topic feels put on a shelf for safe keeping. We'll discuss it whenever it feels appropriate.
I think that's it for now.
Thank you for the follow-up. :]
Tildes has too much technical discussion and to little relationship drama, so please do follow up. /s
In all seriousness, thank you, this has been a very interesting thread and story to follow along. I hope it all goes well for you.
Yeah, regardless of the outcome, I don't think I'll be able to provide much drama, haha. Even if it doesn't go well, it would probably be more of a quiet fizzling out than anything else, some sad feelings or a break/distance in the friendship. That's how I felt before I had the conversation, but now that I know how it went, I feel even more confident about it.
Thanks for the kind words. I love reading odd little stories about other people's lives, dramatic or otherwise, so I figured it could be interesting to share.
Honestly I love how you both handled the conversation as someone in a monopoly relationship... I was gonna say it was textbook but maybe you should write one!
okay I'm pretty sure this was autocorrect but if it wasn't that's the cutest way I've heard someone refer to a monogamous relationship and I want to steal this but I'm poly 😭
Nope! I'm polyamorous and my partner is monogamous so we're monopoly 😁 (and yes I pronounce it as the single word not mono-poly)
Steal away though!
omg that's even cuter stop
(ʘᴗʘ✿)
Ty
Heyy, I'm so glad to hear it went well! Best of luck to you. I hope that whatever follows leads to you guys having a great time in one form or another. :)
Completely off-topic, but do you guys talk about food mushrooms or drug mushrooms? It's cool either way, but if it's the former please tell me more!
Both. :) For me, mushrooms are never off-topic, haha. (Functionally, people can label our comments as off-topic though!)
He's been growing psychedelic mushrooms for many years, and recently started getting into culinary mushrooms. I think right now he's growing "mystic purple healers" on the psychedelic side, and oysters on the culinary side. I've never grown them myself, but I enjoy foraging, eating, dosing, microdosing, and learning about them. Yeah, mushrooms are so great.
How about you?
My whole dumb family is obsessed with foraging mushrooms - especially lobster mushrooms. Several of them grow (food) mushrooms as well.
Perspective source:
I have been in ENM relationships, both as the 3rd party to another couple and part of the couple with other 3rd parties. I have been the victim/unwitting 3rd party when someone lied about being in ENM as well as being the partner that was cheated on when my seemingly-monogamous relationship turned out to not be. I have mostly been in monogamous relationships and at present am in a long-term married monogamous relationship with no intent or desire to change such.
If it was completely out of the blue, I would be shocked. However, you've painted a picture that makes it quite clear it is not out of the blue, flirtations exist, and he has even asked you specifically if you're in an open marriage.
At this point, with the level of sharing and friendship involved, is tact even really something you have to worry about?
That said, be straightforward. "The other day you asked if I was in an open marriage. I confirmed that I am and I believe we both have feelings for one another that extend beyond friendship alone. Are you interested in discussing taking our friendship further into relationship territory?"
Question for you related to the last part of that line: If they are not interested in a ENM relationship with you, can you let it go and continue on without it or will you have to move on without them?
Well, when you put it like this, it does seem that I'm overthinking the conversation a bit. :)
I am quite certain that I will be able to let it go. Maybe this goes without saying, but a huge element of attraction for me is the other person enthusiastically engaging with me as well, I have never pined after anyone for very long if they don't give me signals back. So I think it's the signals I'm getting, plus the unanswered questions (that I haven't asked) keeping me stuck on this. I'm sure he would stop the flirting if we decided that's the healthy way to go, and that's all I would need to move on. Probably would spend a bit less time together at first to let things even out. In the past he has had flings with two other women we know, and he gets along with them and their partners fine. I am friends with exes and things like that.
Additionally, non-monogamy is sort of a bonus in my life rather than a baseline - I'd be happy being just with my husband for the rest of our lives if that's how it happens to work out. (We don't usually seek out people to date, it mostly happens when there are rare instances of friends we'd be compatible with.) There's not really a void in my life that I'm trying to fill, I have a more of a "why not" mentality. This guy not being interested would be a good enough "why not."
I believe you are. :]
Based on your very well written out post, I think you're on firm ground, that he seems to have a serious interest in you, that while he may not have ever considered ENM prior, the asking you about open marriage is a definite sign that he sees something more than friendship being a possibility with you.
Go for it, be direct, discuss rules, and ease him into it since he's new.
What if he's extremely into you, therefore giving the signals, but definitely not into ENM (either right off the bat or after experiencing it in practice with you)? In that scenario you two may decide you'll be better off being platonic, but you'd still most likely feel his attraction seep through the cracks, even if he tries his best to not flirt and do the other stuff you listed that you guys are doing now.
In that event, are you able to let go and move on?
I would recommend communicating this to your friend, given that he may not realise all the ways that people can deviate from the standard baseline relationship approach, even though logically it should be apparent. People often inherently/subconsciously assume that the consummation of desire and emotional intimacy will lead to some level of "ownership" or entitlement (poor terms but can't think of a better one right now), and that this feeling is mutual, but in your case that isn't true. Are you okay with the fact that as soon as he realises your feelings are more on the level of 'I could take it or leave it', this may dampen how he feels towards you?
I'm monogamous myself and would not consider dating someone in an ENM couple. However, I'm in an exclusive FWB with someone whose feelings for me are approximately the above (outside of the friendship part, which is solid and strong). My feelings for him are deeper than that. I'm completely okay with our arrangement, but it is of utmost importance that I have accurate information on how he feels, so as to be able to make informed decisions on whether or not I want to be a part of it. We've been communicating completely openly since long before we started the FWB, which in my opinion is a key component to why this works. If he'd been vague about it at all, there's a high risk that I'd end up feeling deceived.
This is a good point. Personally, I really don't think I would mind it. If anything, I might like it if that part of our relationship sticks around somewhat, that would mean this whole thing didn't change our relationship much, besides giving us some clarity. The open question of "are you flirting with me because you might actually do this in reality" is the reason I'm stuck ruminating on it, rather than the flirting itself. The flirting just made me start wondering about the question. I have a few male friends that I flirt with because both we know we're incompatible, have discussed that, and we know nothing will ever happen so it's very low stakes.
If he tells me "no thanks, ENM won't work for me," then that means we're fundamentally incompatible. I am only excited about a relationship with someone if I feel we might be very compatible, and that they would benefit from it just as much as I would.
I'm not wired for non-manogomy, so I'll throw in my perspective. I would want to know exactly what is entailed, what the relationship would look like, and what kind of exit strategy it would have. Is it a temporary addition to your existing friendship? Is he interested in it for the long haul? If he isn't polyamorous, and isn't interested in joining that lifestyle long-term, what does it look like when he falls in love and wants to date and get married to someone else? What does it look like for your friendship?
All the usual and trite things come to mind about whether you value having him as a friend forever, or would risk deepening the relationship knowing that might put an expiration date on it.
This is a sensible and reasonable take...and it would suck every little exiting thing out of it too. Maybe that's a good thing I don't know but reading it made me almost lose interest in my partner :)
That it is unusual does not make it wrong. Else I were in big trouble...
The shallowness comes from the specifics, the presentation, the approach. Not from having the genders flipped. I have seen this play out at least twice—the friendship persisted. You are approaching this thoughtfully, which makes a positive outcome much more likely, though of course you know your friend and I do not.
I completely agree - I think I am in "reddit mode" sometimes, feeling like I need to justify basic concepts to people who view men and women completely differently. You know, the people who would comment "all of your male friends wants to have sex with you anyway, otherwise they wouldn't be around." Granted, we don't have many of those folks here, but it was a reflex.
And you're right, I don't think I have any of those toxic aspects that would give a bad context to the situation. Just worried about it possibly being perceived that way.
I am a woman who has been the recipient of unreciprocated attraction from male friends and I strongly agree that the specifics matter. I had a friend I thought was very close, and when the relationship I was in ended, he acted like he'd been sitting in a Relationship Waiting Room the whole time and now I wasn't calling his number up and that was some sort of betrayal. He was very angry and very insulting about it. That really hurt, because it showed that he never actually valued my friendship. That's probably worst case scenario, to act like the friendship is only acceptable when it is the Highest Available Tier of Affection, which is obviously not a concern in your case.
The best case scenario was a friend who made it clear he was attracted, joked about it immediately when I told him I wasn't interested, and never brought it up again. We're still friends to this day.
There have also been guys that have fallen somewhere in the middle, but I think the point is that it can be done poorly, or it can be done well. The key is to show that your friendship does matter, his comfort does matter, and your primary goal is to communicate honestly while keeping those two things a priority. I think with the level of thought and care you've put into this, you'll be able to manage that easily.
For sure. And if we ignore the idea of romance, there are so many different levels of friendship and affection. I have one friend where the only activity we do together is watch the bachelor! We chat about our lives casually, but generally watching TV and eating snacks is our thing. Then I have other friends who know pretty much everything about me and are integrated in most areas of my life.
I don't expect any particular investment or effort from friends, I'll just take what they're interested in giving. I think that's kind of the beauty of friendships.
This is basically how I would treat it. I guess the only thing I would do is just ask to make sure I had stepped back enough, if I felt like something was off later on. Otherwise I'm fine carrying on as normal.
I appreciate you giving examples of how differently this situation can be approached and perceived.
That problem, at least, has a very simple remedy: stop reading reddit :)
Wise advice, but Tildes doesn't have trashy drama and pop culture gossip for me to read while I sip my morning coffee. ;) And I would never want you classy people to change anyway.
I thought I would completely ditch reddit after last year, but I've found that using old.reddit on my mobile browser has been (somewhat unfortunately) just functional enough to keep me around there, at least for the content that I'm missing on other sites.
Ha! This made me go "oh hey same" so hard I just had to drop a comment. As someone just dipping their toes into ENM this thread was so incredibly helpful to read and follow along with - thank you for posting it! Also, totally agree with AugustusFerdinand above that your post is so well written!
If you don't know it, I highly recommend r/weddingshaming if you ever need another dose of trashy drama! So many hilarious stories there
Emotional cheating is a very undefined concept I think. Physical cheating has a very clear definition but the emotional kind is so loosely defined that pretty much everyone's got different perspectives on it, and what qualifies for one person could be literally nothing to someone else.
Perhaps that's a question for another time/thread though.
This is definitely what I meant when I mentioned it in my post. I did not mean to define someone else's specific behavior (like /u/Moonchild) as being emotional cheating, since that is going to be unique to each person's relationship. I guess I was trying to illustrate the closeness of our friendship with a comparison of sorts.
Didn't think you were! And it's a good comparison. I was just going off topic a little bit 😅
I think you would be very surprised if you asked people about what psychical cheating is and how the answers would vary in degrees. Just to say that it's a bit of a myth that the personal definition of emotional cheating is an entirely different animal than that of psychical cheating. I actually had this very conversation with my partner last night because she went to a thing where they discussed how people define cheating in general and how many couples never actually have that very important conversation exactly because they think it's that obvious and doesn't need to be addressed.
I suppose that's true that I just assumed everyone's on the same page. For me it would be overt displays of affection like cuddling or kissing. What did you and your partner find?
I'll jump in here and ask, what's your definition of cuddling? Some possible "gray areas" I can think of might be: Sitting close to someone on a couch and resting your hand on their thigh for a minute? How about having a deep conversation with a friend and hugging them to comfort them for a little while during it? Once, when a typically tough, stoic friend of mine was going through a heartbreaking divorce, I was listening to him talk about it, and eventually he curled up next to me, laid his head on my leg, and cried for about ten minutes while I held his hand. (And since you mentioned "affection" as an add-on clarifier, which I do think makes sense to clarify - I would say that I was showing affection to my friend by holding his hand in that moment, though it was a platonic, empathetic, comforting kind of affection, not sexual or romantic. I'm guessing you meant sexual/romantic affection, but I'm just saying it's just another hair to split.)
I don't mean to say these are typical examples of cuddling, but they seem like things adjacent to "cuddling" that would be considered inappropriate by some people, a red flag for others, some people might feel differently about each one based on who it was happening with, and other people might just not mind at all.
Luckily for everyone, kissing seems much more straightforward. If lips are touching lips and neither of you has just been plucked from the ocean after being rescued from drowning, you're probably kissing.
It was a surprisingly difficult to answer actually. To me it’s about what the relationship is and what boundaries we’ve set together and that can of course vary in different relationships. We both had a hard time pinpointing exactly what would do it if we were pressed to give a final answer.
I replied to the other part of your comment yesterday, but I wanted to come back to this, because I really don't like it when people act like straight men and women can't be close platonic friends. Or that anyone can't be close friends, but the conversations all seem to surround men and women, (and everyone conveniently forgets the existence of bisexual and pansexual people, who are apparently all completely friendless, or are having friend orgies every time they see their friends.) And again, Tildes is the exception. It's the only place I know of where you can have a very reasonable, level headed conversation about things like this. I mean, look at how polite everyone is being in this thread, even though for some people with more conservative backgrounds, I may as well have posted "I have two heads. Where do I find health insurance that covers two pairs of glasses simultaneously?" Ha! I guess I already sort of mentioned that in my other comment. I'm just feeling grateful for the people here.
Anyway, like you do (though I don't believe I know your gender,) I also have other male friends that I am close with on a purely platonic level, and have pretty much done most of the things I mentioned in my post (excluding ...pining after them.) Going on vacation together, sharing vulnerable thoughts, spending time alone, etc. When I said "I don't think most male and female friends do _______," that was poorly written or not fully thought out, because I literally do, with other friends. I even exchange light flirting with platonic male friends. I guess what I should have said is more like, when I flirt with other friends, it feels purely goofy, like both of us seem to know that we're just joking around. With this friend, it feels different. I'm not really sure how, but it does.
I feel strongly that one of the best ways to understand the world more and grow as a person, is to get to know different kinds of people. I absolutely adore my female friends, and there is a level of comradery and understanding that I will never find with men. But in the same way, my male friends help me understand how men experience the world and how it treats them. (It's not that I feel men and women are very different on a fundamental level, it's mostly that we tend to have different perspectives due to our experiences.) All this to say, I can't imagine my life without my platonic male friends, and I think it's healthy to be close with any friend if it's a functional relationship and everyone involved (such as a spouse) has generally consented to whatever level of intimacy is involved.
(If it helps, I'm as much in the dark as you are. But I've had close friends of all genders who were in committed relationships, so felt reasonably secure in saying that.)
Ah, yeah, fair enough. I can relate to that to some extent, but also not, which I suspect is to mostly down to feeling intense romantic attraction relatively infrequently. So casual-serious and casual-joking flirting don't feel all that different. (As a kid, I read a couple of romance novels, and assumed they were intended to be about bizarre aliens, before eventually meeting people who could have walked right off the pages of those books. Though it probably also doesn't help that I was weaned on Rumiko Takahashi's awful—but impeccably executed!—soap operas before moving on to more serious fare.)
Tildes is pretty good, by the standards of internet fora, but at the same time, I think it is prone to the same pathologies as all the others—the difference is one of degree, not kind—which is part of what I was getting at in my somewhat poorly-received comment here about 'social media': my preference is to try to use these sorts of things as jumping-off points to build more personal relationships. I've had the most success with this on irc (c.f. discord); to a lesser extent twitter/activitypub; and least of all on fora like tildes. I would probably not be willing to ask relationship questions in any irc channel I'm in, but I have met people on irc of whom I would gladly ask these sorts of questions. And some people I wouldn't ask about relationships, but would ask about other things.
Not to say that it's perfect, but there are some interesting dynamics. In a couple of irc channels I am in, it will sometimes happen that the channel gets effectively monopolised by me and another person discussing a deep technical topic which is impenetrable to the other channel members. This is a bit antisocial, but there is a sense of give-and-take of the shared space (c.f. what I discuss in the comment I link from the linked comment), and it is also to some degree less antisocial than having the conversation via private message, because should someone join to whom the topic is not impenetrable, they are encouraged to join in the conversation.
...I don't really know where I was going with this, but assorted thoughts on the problem and some pushback against the 'tildes is great!' meme.
Can you elaborate on this?
Monogamous person here. Based on my prior experience dating a poly person, I would be cautious about doing it again even if it would temporarily align with my life and relationship goals. I'll explain why, and how I would approach the situation you're in if I was the counterpart.
The poly guy I dated was in what was described as a completely solid, meant-to-be, forever relationship. Him and his partner were adjacent pearls on the string of universe and could never be separated, no matter who else they dated or loved. I accepted this to be so after hearing it first hand from both people, and so I let myself fall for the guy.
Just a few weeks later they started having problems, apparently due to him having become more emotionally intimate with me than he'd been with her. His partner started hinting that I'm trying to steal him away, at which point I ended things, as this type of dynamic wasn't what I signed up for. Later he ended their relationship in order to be with me. I had just then met someone else and had to choose between them. I chose the new person even though I had deep feelings for the other guy, because I believe going from one relationship to the next without spending time on your own isn't ideal for most people's mental health and independence. In hindsight it was the right choice (I'm still friends with the first guy).
So, if this was me and I was attracted to you, as your friend clearly is, and you approached me about taking it further, I'd be asking you all about the above scenario. How have you and your partner handled such situations in the past? What if it happened again but this time one of you wanted to break up - do you have a pre-determined protocol in place for that? Is there any scenario at all that you can imagine where you guys would be breaking up? What is your experience around breakups in the first place, and the emotional processing that comes with them?
The reason I would seem this obsessed around the topic of breaking up is because many of the poly people I know seem to have chosen that lifestyle first and foremost in order to avoid a breakup. They're not completely happy with their partner (even though they always say they are), but because it isn't a totally unfulfilling relationship either, they don't want to end it and face the uncertainty of single life. However, as soon as a seemingly "better" option comes along, the existing relationship's downsides become less tolerable and NRE with the new person enables them to take the necessary steps to move on, painful as it is.
Obviously, I know that not all poly people fall into this category, and that this isn't even true polyamory, but in my liberal circles, it is the most common version that I've come across. Practically everyone I know who used to be poly is now in a monogamous relationship, after finding a person that was actually a good fit for a partner. So, it only makes sense that this factors in when I consider my options with someone who is poly. I wouldn't want to become a crutch for a conflict avoidant person to face their demons - I prefer intimacy with people who are already facing theirs, regularly and proactively. For that reason, I would be gauging your motives and the strength and quality of your relationship before considering getting more seriously involved with you. If your friend isn't doing that, then in my opinion he isn't fully aware of what he may be getting himself into. Of course, this could remain just a theoretical issue, in case all goes smoothly, or it could end up leading to real life trouble.
In conclusion, I would recommend being as radically honest with him as you possibly can, in order to facilitate his being discerning. Openly tell him things he doesn't think asking about, particularly the things that you'd rather not speak of. It's still no guarantee for averting all trouble, but then again, that isn't a realistic goal in life in the first place. Just do your best to not invite any.
Edit: I see that I explained my gripe with these pseudo-poly people in some length. Please don't take it as criticism towards you. I believe you are truly poly and that it truly works for you if you say so. The above is just to shed light on my side of things, not knowing in advance which group the "poly" person I meet actually represents.
Wow, it seems like you navigated an extremely messy situation with grace.
The fantastic wording of this had me laughing out loud after I read how it ended.
I mean, I'm sorry to hear about your friend's relationship ending, but they imploded mere weeks after you started dating him?! For something that seems fairly simple to navigate and re-negotiate, and most importantly, should have been covered up front? It's just a bit absurd to me. Now I'm so curious how many conversations they had about their boundaries concerning emotional intimacy, prior to engaging with you.
Yes. I would say that "adjacent pearls on the string of the universe that can never be separated" is just about the polar opposite of how we think about our relationship.
Even ignoring the ENM element, we are very open with each other about the fact that our marriage could end in divorce for a multitude of reasons. So far it remains an incredibly abstract, far off concept, but it is a concept we've discussed multiple times. (I elaborated on my thoughts about divorce in other comments in the thread, and I was going to link them, but they're so damn long that probably it wouldn't help anyway. If you're curious, they're my comments responding to the user "first-must-burn.")
Yes, I believe this is a keen observation. For me it's the opposite - involving ENM in my marriage only makes it more vulnerable to divorce. And we haven't opened our marriage to solve any problems or fill some void that can't be filled within our marriage. On a base level, I would be perfectly happy just being with my husband for the rest of my life, if, for example, we never found any other compatible partners or we simply decided to be monogamous someday.
Interestingly, he has already asked about things like that even though I haven't told him about any of this. Just things like, we were talking about toxic vs. healthy relationships in general and he said "I'm sure you and Husband fight, like most people, right? You always seem to get along so well when you're in public." (I told him, not really, we have disagreements, but they're more like challenging conversations than "fights" or arguments, we don't raise our voices or say unkind things to each other.)
Now, I highly doubt my friend was asking about my marriage because he wanted to be a part of it, ha! I think that conversation happened pretty early on. But we do talk about it somewhat often, and he knows a lot about how we function together, why we get along, some challenges we have had in the past, etc.
Not at all, I share pretty much all the criticisms of behaviors within poly relationships that you've mentioned. Or "pseudo-poly," if we want to call it that. Though if you ask me, using pseudo-poly here is an example of the No True Scotsman fallacy. (I realize you are likely using the term to avoid being accusatory or rude to me and other people, which is appreciated.) Personally I think of polyamory as a lifestyle or a set of behaviors, rather than an identity or orientation. So anyone in a polyamorous relationship is "polyamorous" as long as they're in that situation, regardless of why they're drawn to poly, how good or shitty they are at it, or how naturally inclined for it they are. Certainly some people are better suited for poly than others, I just don't think that's what makes someone poly or not. All to say, nothing in your comment (or really most criticisms of ENM,) is personally offensive to me.
I have poly friends who, in my opinion, clearly use the lifestyle as a way of never being alone with their own thoughts, or to shield themselves from the inevitable pain that comes from being involved in human relationships. Shuffling their cards around to ensure that they will never be without a partner with a shoulder to cry on or make them feel good. Like you said, a crutch to avoid facing demons.
(I can't tell you how much I enjoyed your intelligent and constructive response!)
They'd been at it for years, apparently without issue, and they seemed to be having open conversations as far as I could tell, so I did think that they'd be emotionally low risk. In the end, I think it was just that their system was based on both people's prior experience of life and relationships, which is always true by definition for all of us. I'm guessing that he (and most likely she too) simply hadn't experienced emotional intimacy on the level that occurred between me and him, and when it did happen, many of the beliefs that their relationship structure was built on changed as a result.
I think that this is a realistic take on ENM. Out of curiosity, do you guys have any sort of protective mechanisms in place, namely something you'd do to deliberately steer things away from a potential divorce, if ever things started to seemingly head that way? Or are you simply living in complete anarchy, accepting whatever future as is? (I'm reading your other responses but may not have yet read everything, so no need to write duplicate responses if it's been discussed already.)
This got a chuckle out of me, because I always say that love is a decision and a set of actions, rather than a feeling. For this reason, my definition of polyamory doesn't extend to the styles that are predominantly fear-based, as love and fear to me are pretty much polar opposites. For similar reasons my definition for friendship is fairly strict. A friend isn't just someone whose name you know and who you bump into occasionally - it's someone who puts in effort for you, has your back to an extent, cares about you and accepts the same back from you. By extension, FWB is completely different than a fuckbuddy, even if lots of people use those terms interchangeably nowadays. And so on.
I do get a lot of flak for my language fascism but sticking to it has been helpful for keeping my ducks in a row in the face of life's complexity. You're right though that we shouldn't define other people's identity for them. I try to not rub my definitions in the face of those who use language differently, which then means that I can't become deeply intimate with them, but so far it hasn't been an issue as there usually isn't enough personality overlap to warrant that anyway.
Hard agree to poly not being an orientation. Humans aren't wired for monogamy or non-monogamy any more than we're wired to be librarians or fishermen. Individual human beings have inclinations that lend themselves to some lifestyles better than others, and these vary in strength. That's all. I'm personally very far inclined in the direction where monogamy makes the most sense, while having very low jealousy. I see some people say they're monogamous because they're jealous, which is again a fear-based idea and there's nothing wrong with that per se - I just would keep that separate from the idea of love. At any rate, I can imagine that I'd thrive doing ENM/poly if a few things of my mental structure were very different than they are, and most likely for people like that ENM is the better and more fulfilling choice. Compatibility across these different inclinations is really a very interesting question to explore.
If I were in your friend's shoes and got to read through your post and responses here, I'd feel a lot more confident about giving things a go with you, provided that I was in a place where engaging with an ENM person fits my situation. If you end up discussing taking it further with him, one idea would be to just show him this post.
We don't have any particular mechanisms in place to steer things away from divorce, aside from always having proactive communication about any issues that could be present in our relationship. And I would say the real thing we're discussing during those conversations is our individual and mutual fulfillment, rather than how to keep our marriage together - and it's just that our marriage does still lead to fulfillment for both of us, and that's why it's important to us.
Maybe the best way to answer this question is to simply say that we don't want to prevent a divorce from happening. We want to always support each other in finding happiness and fulfillment in life, regardless of what or who that fulfillment ends up coming from.
I would say this is a good way of putting it.
I don't know if you already know this term or if you just happened to pick the exact word, but "relationship anarchy" is a lesser known, less established relationship philosophy that shares some similarities with ENM/poly (though, interestingly, relationship anarchy can be fully practiced within monogamy as well.) In this post and in my life, I typically use the terms ENM or poly because these terms are understood (at least on a basic level) by the majority of the people I interact with. But the ideas behind relationship anarchy actually resonate with me the most.
I have said elsewhere in the thread that "ENM doesn't come with a rulebook" which is definitely true in a way, but I also think that's an oversimplification. Because there are so many established definitions, labels, and practices in ENM, it's more like you're ditching the small handful of socially accepted rules for monogamy, and trading it in for a truckload of millions of new ideas for rules that you can freely pick from however you and your partners wish. This is not necessarily a bad thing at all, obviously communication is simpler when we have definitions for things, same as communicating about any complex topic (see when we crossed wires about the word "polyamorous.") And I can describe my relationship using ENM/poly lingo and agreed upon norms, since they're flexible enough that pretty much anything can fit under that umbrella.
But when I said it felt absurd to me that your friend's poly relationship imploded over jealousy regarding emotional intimacy, it's probably relationship anarchy showing up in my thought process, not just my reaction to a messy situation. I believe most people who practice polyamory would say "ah, they should have agreed upon what each person is comfortable with and then not crossed those boundaries." And I guess that is what I said to you, because I was thinking about poly at the time. But if I was thinking about my relationship, I would say "I am not entitled to dictate or even know how much emotional intimacy my partner has with someone else, and I unconditionally trust my partner to explore that while still having deep regard for my feelings." It's up to him. He can ask me how I feel about it if he wants to know, and I can tell him how I feel, but I wouldn't tell him what he should do, and we wouldn't set up hard boundaries around it up front. And it's pretty much the same for any topic. We wouldn't dictate the gender of people we can engage with, which specific sex acts we're "allowed" to take part in, whether we can fall in love or not, whether we can live with someone else, etc.
The boundaries we do have are more around functional things - we must adhere to specific safe sex practices, we have to recognize that we only have so much time in a day/week and respect each other's schedules, we have a dog to take care of so who's doing that today if you're busy and I'm at work, our money is shared so we both have a say in how it's spent, etc. (EDIT: interestingly, upon re-reading this I've realized that all of our hard "rules" I've listed here are actually the same as what monogamous couples do, aside from non-birthcontrol related safe sex being irrelevant in true monogamy. This is fascinating to me. To be honest, if non-monogamy added a higher number of rules and different boundaries to my life, I probably would not have enough energy for it.)
And of course, we are always expressing our feelings to each other and responding to those feelings accordingly. Because we care deeply about the feelings of the other person, our "boundaries" are more like an ongoing awareness and concern about the impact our actions have on each other. We just don't enjoy doing something if it's hurting the other person, so things even out to a peaceful place as we continue checking in with each other. To go back to the divorce topic, I suppose if one of us did do something that was painful for the other on an ongoing basis, we couldn't find a balance or resolution, and it's something that person feels they can't go without - that's when we would discuss whether the marriage is still working for us or not.
I do as well. :)
It feels like we have some oddly similar perspectives on the world and relationships despite implementing those perspectives quite differently in our lives. Maybe that's why you're able to ask questions that feel particularly introspective for me to consider, because the answers reflect why I've chosen this particular path. Thank you!
As a generally monogamous person I would say that in any discussion of a relationship together, finding out and being extremely clear about the goals and general "vision" of what you're proposing would be extremely important. The conventional relationship pattern of meet->date->move-in->marry->kids? will not apply here. He might very well want those things, if not now then eventually. In any discussion of changing your relationship together you will have to be explicit about how exactly you see things going forward between you.
I would suggest finding out what he wants from a relationship right now, and what his long term goals are. If it's marriage and kids, and that's not something you can accommodate, then going from platonic to sexual might end in heartache. However, if he's genuinely looking for simple companionship, is not ready to "settle down" and is open to a FWB then you would probably be safe to proceed.
Another aspect will be making sure that he and your husband talk about it together, to work out any possible feelings of jealousy from either side and to establish the "rules" or lack thereof. Sometimes it's hard for monogamous people to imagine not being at least a little jealous or possessive of their partners, and that would be a valuable conversation to have.
A possible problem will be getting him to be honest with himself. Even if you are as clear and direct as you can be about managing expectations, if you do have that much chemistry he might convince himself that he would be fine in that situation but then later learn the hard way that he's not. I don't think there's anything you could do to effect that, aside from encouraging him to really think about it and not to rush into it from excitement. Maybe try to approach it obliquely or even have another friend ask about it by proxy, so that the prospect of a physical relationship with you doesn't change his answer.
You're in interesting waters here so you'll have to use your best judgment, but hopefully if everyone involved is honest (with themselves as well as others) and direct you can navigate this situation to a place you're all happy with.
This is probably the most poignant part of your thoughtful comment. Some people who practice poly actually don't feel that it's exactly ethical to date a person who knows absolutely nothing about ENM and didn't propose the idea themselves, for exactly the reasons you've mentioned.
I've been thinking about this stuff for a decade, I know all the lingo and such even though I don't normally use it, and I know what my boundaries are. I have heard all the horror stories and success stories about polyamory from my poly friends. He doesn't have any of that, it would definitely involve a lot of handholding and educating, and even then unexpected things could and probably will happen. I do think he has the capacity for discussing complex emotions. No matter what, I would be sure to take it very slowly.
I am married, our relationship has been open since we started dating. We went through a period of poly dating, and probably would both agree we're still poly, but currently functionally monogamous.
While we were actively seeing others, I dated someone who hadn't considered ENM but was willing to try with me. I had lots of conversations with her beforehand, she met my spouse fairly quickly, and she seemed to understand and say the right things when discussing.
Ultimately, it did not work out. I also needed to stop dating for life event reasons, and probably should have ended it sooner. But after a few months it became clear that her mindset and actions were not fitting with where I was. I had read the warnings about dating non-poly people but let her decide, when she probably couldn't ever really grasp what she was agreeing to.
I cannot recommend trying to date someone who isn't already actively looking for a poly relationship. A casual, friends with benefits type relationship seems slightly less risky with lower expectations, but those have their own pitfalls even without the poly aspect in the mix.
You seem like you really know what you want and have no problem communicating. There's a chance he would fit well into a poly relationship, but it requires a ton of honesty and self-reflection, which can be obscured by other feelings.
This is something I have seen repeatedly as I have been reading about best practices for this. I cannot deny that it seems like the most responsible and realistic advice concerning my situation.
Outside of getting very lucky, I think the healthiest way this could work out (maybe the only healthy way?) is if I proposed the idea, but then we let it rest for a long time, maybe even a year or so. And if the person reflects enough and feels like it is something they'd like to explore on their own volition - for them, not for me, maybe that's a little different.
But I don't take this lightly. Personally I believe few people are truly suited for ENM. I am certainly not part of the crowd that believes "humans are naturally non-monogamous" so most people would be better off if they would just embrace the ideas behind it.
Some others have already come near to bringing this up, but do you have a plan for what happens if he falls hard for you and doesn't want to share?
You have something valuable that could be threatened by change. On the other hand you might have an opportunity.
Best of luck.
I've always been in monogamous relationships, and now I'm happily in a monogamous marriage. So right now it would be a flat no. But if I think back to if I had been approached in my "single" life, I've put some responses below. I'm almost completely ignorant of norms in ENM/poly relationships, so if anything comes across as insensitive, please chalk it up to my ignorance and know I wouldn't offer these thoughts if they weren't solicited.
1 - not saying this should be the case, just that it was the case
Yeah, I mentioned that he is definitely inexperienced with non-monogamy and has not considered it much for himself, but he has known a couple of people who do it, and he understands the basic concepts surrounding it. So it's not a completely new concept like it may be for many monogamous people.
He is. (My husband is sometimes on Tildes and might very well see this post.)
Without being too explicit, my husband and I are very into the idea of each of us being with other people separately. We do not always practice non-monogamy, but when we do, our sexual relationship with each other is more active than ever (and it's pretty active already on a normal day,) and our emotional relationship tends to grow stronger due to the increased level of trust. This will definitely sound insane to monogamous people, but for whatever reason it's something that works very well for us.
There would definitely be many conversations between all three of us. He is respectful of my husband and would have the same concerns as you and other people commenting, that is, wanting to make sure it was actually all above board. We've sort of addressed this in a small way, once he complimented my appearance in front of my husband and then apologized and asked if it was inappropriate. For the aforementioned reasons, my husband told him it was completely fine. So the vague concept is sort of on everyone's mind already.
Now we are getting into some very large concepts related to ENM that would take a while to explain in full, so I won't ramble on forever even though my situation could go a number of different ways. But I like that you're genuinely curious!
All of that would be a negotiation that happens between everyone involved. In other poly relationships, it could go all sorts of ways. In my situation, I would remain living with my husband and maybe stay with partner 1+ nights per week. With this particular friend, I already see him 1-4 times a week. If we really pursued this, we would probably see each other a bit more often and we would spend less time in groups of people and less time with my husband.
Right now, we spend time together with my husband on a fairly regular basis. I couldn't do non-monogamy with partners that never wanted to interact at all (even though that is an acceptable way to practice ENM if all people agree,) so if someone felt they couldn't date me and see my husband every once in a while on a friendly basis, I would have to call it off.
This is one of the bigger and more complicated questions. There is really no rulebook for non-monogamy or poly. There are books and guidance available, but a foundational aspect is that very few of your existing assumptions about relationships are going to be there as guardrails. You have to discuss everything, and be extremely clear about what your needs, expectations, and feelings are on an ongoing basis.
To be honest, in the relationships and flings my husband and I have had, we haven't had many conflicts come up concerning priorities yet. We have been doing this for a long time, but I would say we date far fewer people and have had fewer long-term outside relationships than a typical non-monogamous couple might. But I can think of a few situations where it was obvious to both of us that we would prioritize our own relationship. However, we have also discussed that a big risk of ENM is the fact that one of us could eventually feel stronger about an external partner than the person we're married to. If that ever happened, we both know that we would have to change the dynamics of our relationship, such as moving in with the other person instead, or even discuss divorce if we didn't think our marriage was working for us anymore. "If you love them, let them go" is a big theme for us.
Ultimately, it would be an ongoing conversation like most other factors here. Right now what I can do is be clear with my friend about concrete things like not being able to live with him, and that I would only be able to spend a certain amount of time with him each week. I might be able to give more of myself depending on how it goes, but I want to be reasonable with expectations, since dating someone in a limited capacity like this can be a big problem and end up in hurt feelings, even for people experienced with ENM.
I hope that helps explain some of the quirks of this ...interesting lifestyle. :) I appreciate you being polite even though it's unfamiliar territory for you.
Thanks for the detailed explanation!
This is really made me think. My wife and I read a book while we were engaged that started out by saying that the defining characteristic of marriage was not love or attraction or feelings, but commitment. 1. I remember that surprising me at the time because I was pretty clueless about what I was signing up for. But through the years, I have watched people's marriages end for a variety of reasons and worked hard to improve my own relationship with my wife. But in the very hardest times, I believe that all that work, all that patience, all that making space for the other person in my life would be impossibly hard if that commitment weren't the starting place. If I gave myself an out, then I'm not sure that I would be able to put all that work into maintaining the relationship. 2
Anyway, your statement about (lack of) guardrails and about possibly changing or ending your relationship with your husband made me wonder what shape commitment takes in your relationships. You seem like a kind and thoughtful person, so I am not trying to suggest there is no commitment in your relationships. But I think it brings home for me just how different the mindset for ENM is. So I'm learning something even if it does not sound like something I could do.
Honestly, this would improve a lot of monogamous relationships I know of. It makes me wonder if ENM pushes you toward healthier relationships because that thoughtful intention is not optional when you don't have deeply rooted cultural norms to fall back on the way monogamous couples do.
1 The way I have described marriage here is pretty normative for Christian ideas of marriage (my own background). As I alluded to above, I have found value in the traditional framing, and I'm very happy to be married to my wife, and expect to stay that way. But I want to be clear that this is just my experience, and I am not saying that's the way all marriages should be.
2 The challenges that I am talking about with my marriage have been hard but not harmful to us. No abuse, neglect, or anything like that. There are definitely good reasons to get out of a marriage, and I think nobody but the people going through it can really say whether it is the right call or not.
Well, I actually agree with this. Though, I suppose I think of it a bit differently - marriage is more of a sterile legal contract to me than it is a way to think about love, but I think the general concept resonates with me. Instead of "the defining characteristic of marriage is commitment," for me it's "the defining characteristic of love is commitment." The way I put it is: real love isn't a feeling, or something you say, it's an action. It's something that shows in your day to day choices. When I am thinking about what to do with my life, where to live, how I'd like to retire when I'm old, etc. my husband is always in the picture. Sometimes other people pop up, but he's always there. I elaborate in the answer to your next question.
This is a perfectly reasonable question.
In my view, my husband and I are very committed to each other. We met in our early 20s and instantly fell for each other. Settling down was the very last thing on our minds at the time, in fact, we met at a music festival where we were frolicking around with bare feet and $3 in our pockets. But ever since the first week we met, there was a feeling that we would be together for a very long time. I come from a very conservative background like you, but I had rejected it by the time I was in my late teens. In our circles, people don't really settle down until they at least approach their 30s. Most people in our world would've moved on, had they met the potential love of their life when they were 21, because that's not what they were looking for at the time. It certainly wasn't what I was looking for, I had only dated 1-2 people by the time we met. But there was no way I was going to let go of this man just because I wasn't done experiencing the rest of the world yet.
Going from being practically kids, to being in our 30s and owning a house and retirement accounts together, has been a long journey of consistently choosing each other. Early on, I helped him financially while he was in college, which didn't worry me because I knew he'd always support me too when he got the chance, and he has. People warned me not to buy a house with him before we were married, but that didn't worry me because I was confident we'd be together years later, and that was 6 years ago. We've stuck with each other through sickness and health, career changes, mental health issues, adopting a dog with severe behavioral problems, and much more. Even when life gets hard, our relationship is always easy. During the most trying times, loving each other has never felt hard, but if it ever did, we'd give it it a long, long try before we'd consider anything else. Conversations about divorce are not something we take lightly, and whenever we have discussed it, it is always in reference to a hypothetical situation many years in the future.
I think that when you and your wife married, you likely agreed to something along the lines of "we will love each other and be only with each other forever, till death do us part," and only very extreme issues like abuse or neglect would be considered the exception to your promise. I think it's an honorable promise and I respect it, especially if it works well for you.
When my husband and I committed to each other (which happened years before marriage,) our agreement was different. "We will love each other, build our lives around each other, and choose each other long-term, and we will do this as long as we both still make each other happy." (And of course, the "be only with each other" part isn't there.)
My personal distaste for the unconditional, permanent commitment of traditional marriage probably has something to do with the fact that my parents are extremely unhappily married. Divorce is just not an option in their minds, and they have truly suffered for it. There isn't abuse present, there's just... nothing. I haven't seen them kiss or hug since I was probably 7 years old.
Of course, we are nothing like my parents, but I think I needed to know that the person I love would never succumb to a life of passionless monotony, just to honor a commitment they made. I needed to know that my husband loves me so much that he would rather see me truly happy with someone else than try to make something work that wasn't working anymore, even though being together forever is what we want most. If, god forbid, I ever changed so much that I wasn't treating him well, I wanted to know for sure that he would leave me if I didn't change. For me, knowing all this makes me feel more at peace and more secure in the quality of our marriage.
This is quite interesting. I would say that monogamous marriages would definitely benefit from some of the communication styles and thought processes that are recommended in ENM. Because "forever" is not a sure thing for me and my husband, we regularly check in to make sure everything is really going well, and no topics are off limits for us. We are really radically honest. I think ENM encourages us to never forget about improving our relationship and keeping things exciting even when it's already going well. I think people can definitely take advantage of that concept without ENM being involved, and I know some monogamous couples do. "Never stop dating your spouse," and all that. I just think that concept is especially easy to remember when your spouse dating other people is literally an option. Our result is that our relationship is just as romantic and electric as the day we met, but with all the long-term benefits.
On the flip side, personally I would not say that ENM pushes you towards healthier relationships. It can certainly lead to a lot of personal growth and discovery, but only when starting with strong relationship skills and doing things very carefully. If anything, I have seen a lot of chaos and pain come as a result of the ENM relationships in my friend's lives and reading stories about relationships online. It really does complicate things. Of course, those stories I've heard are self-selecting - people are more likely to discuss or gossip about a chaotic, dramatic relationship, and we have such a small sample size for examples of ENM relationships vs. traditional ones, even though ENM is common in circles that we run in.
And I shouldn't speak for all people who practice ENM. My husband and I have taken this very slowly, and collectively, there's been more time where it's just the two of us vs. having other people involved. I'm definitely less experienced than other folks who have maintained secondary partners for many years, for example.
I'm in a monogamous-ish marriage1., and our view on commitment is much more closely aligned with yours.
Before we got married, this was something we discussed. I don't want to be married just because divorce would be a pain or Commitment for Commitment's sake. If he does not want to be with me, I want him to leave. Ironically, I think this comes from that fact that my parent's marriage, which seemed extremely happy and affectionate while I was growing up, was my father's second. His relationship with his ex wife was extremely acrimonious. The idea of them staying together in hatred rather than going on to have happy second marriages, just to serve the purpose of commitment, would not only have made them miserable, it would mean that I and my brothers wouldn't exist. (The irony comes from me finding out in my mid twenties that my parents' relationship actually kind of sucks and they are now staying together just because divorce would be hard, but I think the lessons I learned when I was younger remain valid.)
When I think about my commitment to my husband, it feels like being committed to my arms. I can't imagine a life better without them than with them. When I hurt my wrist or break a nail, I don't want to not have that whole arm. It doesn't feel like commitment to the arm is what gets me through that period of injury, it's just obvious that despite those things, I'd still want to have the arm. Still, I can think of a lot of situations where I would see the need to lose the arm. Bone cancer. Frostbite. Bitten by a zombie and it's the only way to keep the virus from spreading to my brain.
It would be painful and life changing, but if suddenly the circumstances of having an arm were less good than the ones where I didn't have that arm, I would get rid of the arm. The circumstances leading to divorce would be different, but the same general idea applies. If having him in my life is worse than not having him, (or if me being in his life is worse than it would be without me) then we should part ways.
The thing that holds us together is that we make our lives and each other better. I love knowing every day that he's with me because being with me is his best case scenario, and being with him is mine. I wouldn't want it any other way.
This is a beautiful way of illustrating the concept I have tried to explain. For me, monogamy feels too definitive. I think we all have endless possibilities of different people who could have made us happy, and for those of us who are open to it, might make us happy in the future. There are so many variables and different paths in life, many of which we don't have a choice in.
I feel exactly this way about my relationship. I like knowing that's the only thing keeping us together. (It's certainly not that we've never experienced challenges or hard days in the past decade, it's that we are always putting effort into each other, and doing that always works very well for us at the end of the day.)
I'm ironically not the audience you are looking for exactly, being non-monogamous myself, but unless I'm missing some context his question about if you have an open relationship might have been for a reason.
Your post is a very well written explanation of your thoughts... Have you considered showing him your post? I suspect if you have as good of a relationship as you indicate, it would survive telling him you are attracted to him and he's not into it. And from my past experience it is far better to say something rather than bottle it up and let that feeling build until it explodes in a weird way.
Either way, good luck!
You are definitely my audience as well, I just wanted everyone to feel invited to respond since my question sort of feels just as much about approaching a friend in general, as it is about non-monogamy. Though, I suppose if I wasn't married I would just assume right away that he wants to date me.
I hadn't considered showing him the post, but that might be a good idea as I communicate fairly well in writing. I tend to ramble during conversations. And believe it or not, my post is edited down from its original length, ha.
I definitely feel this is the case, and that I probably will end up doing or saying something weird if I never let him know. I am uncomfortable when it feels like I'm not being genuine with someone or withholding information from them. I have had crushes on friends before without communicating it, but they faded within a few weeks - this one feels like it's sticking around.
Thank you for the advice.
This is a tough one for me to think about, because I set my own boundaries with my friends such that it doesn't lead to an "emotional relationship" as you've described, because I'm married and in a monogamous relationship. But even if I were single, I'd still be especially careful about avoiding that if they were married. But if a married friend were to tell me that they were interested, I don't think I'd be offended at all. I'd just tell them that non-monogamy just isn't something that I'm interested in and hope that they respect that like I respect their relationship preferences.
I have a gay friend who brought up the possibility of a relationship, and I simply told him that I am not interested in relationships with men. That was the end of the conversation, and we're still friends because he didn't harp on it or make it weird. I think that this type of situation could be similar in your case. In the case of a rejections, the outcome of your friendship is likely dependent on how you handle it going forward.
I just want to start out by saying I think how he would feel largely depends on how open minded he is, and that's why it's hard to give an opinion that could help you, since ultimately you're the one who knows him best.
Now for the disclaimers: I'm pan/bi and monogamous but very sex-positive and don't outright hate the concept of "having fun" with someone else (just not interested in serious/long-term poly relationships), so that's the perspective this is coming from.
In any case, if this happened to me personally, I probably wouldn't outright be put off because I think anyone likes being the target of someone's affection, especially if they're on good terms, but I would probably first need a loooot of explanations. Explanations on how their relationships work, how/why they feel this way towards me, and ultimately what being in such a relationship would bring me in the future.
The biggest issue for someone like me is just the whole concept of having to permanently "share" their affection with someone else. By that I mean that I'm afraid I would sooner or later grow dissatisfied with having someone I 100% care for not giving me 100% of their time like I would give to them. I don't mean to insult poly relationships or anything, but for someone who's monogamous, those feelings always well up even if subconsciously, at least for me. At the end of the day, knowing I have a partner that's devoted to me and I'm devoted to them feels comforting and reassuring, and I don't know if even the sweetest poly relationship could compete with that. Those types of insecurities and unknown variables are probably what would worry a monogamous person the most, so I'd need them addressed to feel comfortable moving forward.
However, I highly doubt I would outright destroy a friendship over a request like this. Whether I accepted to try a poly relationship or not after hearing their side of things, if we were really on good terms and they weren't trying to cheat on their partner with me, I'd probably just politely decline if I wasn't comfortable with it and see if we could work things out just as friends in the future. I do admit the relationship wouldn't be 100% the same but as an adult I don't feel the need to shut off a good friend from my life over a rejection. But again, this last part reaaaally depends on how your coworker views things. My biggest fear for you would be that your coworker has feelings for you but simply expects you to leave your husband (or worse, be an affair partner), if those were the intentions you would probably be incompatible and things could turn sour, but again, this is impossible to know without talking to him.
In any case, I do hope things work out for all of you.
I have zero experience with non monogomy here, but was thinking one question not thrown out yet was about your friend long term if you are done, become more active with your husband, or you want another partner?
It seems to me a fundamental trait of making non monogomy work is not becoming jealous or possessive. If I were in your friends situation I know I'd jump in feet first but wouldn't really be prepared when you inevitably move on or at least move horizontally.
Some people here also mentioned would it complicate him to move on, but another question is would he be stuck not moving on because he's invested in you 100 percent while for you this is an add on to an already filled out life?
I'd also wonder about how you are growing close now when for a long time he knew you to be married in a monogamous relationship? It is all in the clear now that you mentioned being in an open relationship, but can most people expect thst to be the case, or was he ok to be heading towards being your affair partner? Which then goes on to question how he would feel about your husband and respecting any agreements your husband might have with you about how your partnerships work.
At the end of the day probably you two are close enough to ask about and talk through a lot before taking action. And also your friend won't know how he's gong to feel till he's in it, but then again the result could be he's perfectly happy with it all. You have to live through it to know, so, best you can do is talk it out first and roll the dice.
I hope it works out for all of you really, good luck.
Most likely I would focus on my husband for a while. I don't really seek out partners actively, and I only develop interest in people when I've already gotten to know them as friends, so finding the right fit of an additional partner happens pretty rarely for me.
Good question - no, I don't believe he's that type of person, and it would be a huge turnoff for me if he was. He's pretty good friends with my husband and the three of us spend time together a few times a month, so he knows I don't act any different around him when my husband is around vs. when he isn't. I did tell him about the open marriage only recently, but we have sort of discussed it in more vague terms before. He has asked if my husband minds when we are alone together often, for example, and I told him no, which is true of course.
I have considered this, because unfortunately it's possible. One of the warning signs for me that this might not work out - he told me when he's in a relationship he is very focused on that person and is somewhat intense when it comes to romantic relationships. I would really have to ask him more about what he means by that, because it seems likely to create issues like what you've mentioned.
Thanks for the kind words!
I would be a bit skeptical that a monogamous person with no poly experience could sustain a long term relationship with a partner who is experienced in ENM and already married. Maybe you should ask him why he brought up the status of your open marriage. Was he simply curious about you and your husband? Was ENM something that he was considering, and he might want advice from you in the future? When you asked your friend about polyamory, he only said that he hadn't thought about it much. I feel like exploring a relationship with him would be pretty much you taking on a project.
Without having witnessed anything myself, it is possible that you are the one developing feelings and reading a bit more into things. I wasn't there, so I am not saying this is happening for sure. Complimenting friends' appearances and referencing shared love languages is normal where I'm from. But it's telling that your mutual friends have picked up on it. Perhaps tell him that others have brought it up and ask him if he is comfortable with how you talk to him. You should probably clarify that you were flirting, because he might be afraid of coming off as a creep if you didn't say it first.
You mentioned that this crush wasn't fading. I think that is largely because you are making the most time for him out of all your other friends. Telling him that you have romantic feelings for him seems unavoidable at this point, whether you end up dating him or giving him space so that you can go back to being just friends. It's a tough spot to be in because you clearly value his friendship and respect him as a person. I think framing the "confession" as a thoughtful discussion with your close friend is as tactful as you can get. Good luck!
Sounds like he already opened the door a bit (or at least peaked through the keyhole) by asking if you have an open marriage. It also sounds like you two talk a lot, so you could always steer one of your conversations back to the subject to probe his feelings and perspectives on open relationships and polyamory without necessarily leaping off the cliff of professing your feelings for him.
To answer your hypothetical scenario from my perspective as a monogamous straight man (I am married, but for the sake of argument in this scenario I'll pretend I'm not (you didn't actually mention if your friend was currently in a romantic relationship with someone else but I'm assuming that's not the case)):
If I had a married female friend who I hung out with a lot, flirted with, and she flirted back, the way my brain is wired it likely means I'm somewhat attracted to her and at least entertain the prospect of what a more-than-friendship relationship with her might be like--even if I had no actual intention or expectation that such a thing would ever happen. In that scenario, if she were to one day tell me she wanted to take our relationship in that direction, and that it was actually OK because she's poly and in an open marriage, I can't imagine myself in any head space where that doesn't immediately poison the friendship for me. I am very firmly non-poly and having a romantic relationship with a woman who has a husband is just not something I could be comfortable with, so I would have to turn her down. As a result, our long conversations, hanging out alone together, casual flirting--now I'd be worried the whole time I'm leading her on or teasing her in some way to a degree that I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it anymore, and it would certainly change how I behave around her, possibly to the point of just not wanting to because the idea that she wants to be with me but my own hangups prevent it would just fuck with my head too much.
Of course, I'm not saying that's how your friend is, but it's an example of why it may be a good reason to broach the subject from a more casual, impersonal angle to get a better feel of how he might react before jumping right in and trying to get his actual reaction.
As a monogamous man, I would feel sad that I had to turn you down, but as long as we were fine platonically otherwise I don't see why it would ruin our friendships. No different than extending any other kind of offer and saying no, right?
For my perspective as someone monogamous who lives with ENM folks I wouldn't say there's any reason not to proceed and see how things go as it certainly seems to be headed in that direction. My only concern would be if things didn't work out not being able to get the friendship back that you currently have at the end of it all. There's definitely something to be said for intentionally broaching the discussion and working out how you both feel instead of just drifting towards it and not having anything laid out.
OK so perhaps this is not too helpful but I feel there's a blindspot in all this that is not being examined.
You're asking monogamous people how they would feel and that's great, however you cannot be certain how this specific individual might react. And the thing is: Are you sure you are equipped to be able to read his reactions correctly?
Monogamy is not a different flavour of ice-cream it is very fundamental to one's character and reinforced by society as the only way things are or can be.
Even within groups (say "monogamous people") expectations, reactions and behaviours vary. I'd expect the differences to be amplified x10 between a monogamous and a non-monogamous person. Like, what holding one's hand means, what flirting means and the weight it carries, how you carry yourself when around a person you've slept with, those are all things that I assume are interpreted differently between monogamous and non-monogamous people. There's a huge difference in how each perceives sex, relationships, bonding, etc. Are you sure you'll be capable of understanding how he's perceiving things?
So, say you talk with your friend, you make your case very clear and very reasonable.
But you're still asking him to come to you in a sense, you're not reaching for monogamy, you're asking him to step into the world of non-monogamy. Something he's not experienced with and might flat-out not be compatible with him as a character.
Are you sure you'll be able to tell when "fine" means "fine" and when it means "but I can't understand why we fuck but you don't want to act like we're dating?" Are you sure things that appear very standard and expected to one of you will not be aggravating to the other and are you sure you'll be able to catch on to that? Are you sure he even understands what he's getting into?
You have to be able to perceive things from his POV as if you were monogamous, that's not an easy feat. He has to be able to perceive things from your POV as if he were non-monogamous, an even harder feat.
To me it sounds like a recipe for disaster, especially since you're talking about a close friend.
Obviously I will have to do a lot of assumption here, and I do hope that an additional perspective isn't going to muddy the waters even more given the large number of comments and ideas already present in the thread.
Given that people that know you both have you seen you two interact and confirmed the chemistry and he did not know you are in an open marriage, my first guess would be that he asked because he felt the same pull you have and was worried he was getting into cheating territory and would have to inform your husband that his wife is flirting with him.
Now since you are in an open marriage, I'd guess that currently he could feel conflicted about his own feelings, wondering if he should dare to leap into your arms and then promptly into bed or not, because it could make interactions with your husband, his friend, weird and strange to him.
You've already identified that the best way to find these things out is to have a conversation with him, and I would very much encourage that. You two seem sensible, and communication is the key to any relationship, be it platonic, romantic, sexual or any combination of the three.
There is a chance though that such a conversation will change things between you. Sometimes people can work through such feelings, and sometimes they cannot.