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Comment on Things progressives get wrong in ~society
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Comment on Things progressives get wrong in ~society
post_below Link ParentWish I'd understood this better before I had my first few conversations with my Mom after she started getting sucked into the right wing misinformation machine! I didn't interrupt or shout over...usually when it comes to politics I let her talk without me interrupting cause I feel like too many people want to shout over others when it comes to politics instead of just keeping their mouth shut and listening and understanding and it was a fascinating conversation
Wish I'd understood this better before I had my first few conversations with my Mom after she started getting sucked into the right wing misinformation machine! I didn't interrupt or shout over her but I should have have done a better job of listening and being curious at the beginning. In my mind it was going to be easy to show her how toxic the internet MAGAs are because she was progressive by nature her whole life... Large queer friend group, people from different cultures, she'd had an abortion herself, new agey one love spirituality, etc.. Turns out not so easy after all. Any de-cultification progress I made was quickly reversed by the far right doomscroll.
her response was "I can barely afford to pay my mortgage" and she rattled off other general affordability issues such a medical insurance stuff.
Yes exactly, if Fox news or, in my Mom's case right wing Facebook influencers, are the only place you get your information from then you think the world is on fire (but not the climate) and the right is here to solve all your problems. Especially when...
My mum apparently doesnt even watch the news. For all I know she doesn't even know Trump tried to overthrow the government
I think there are genuinely a lot of voters who either don't know that Trump tried to stage a coup at all or believe only the right wing spin. To them Trump didn't try to overthrow the government, he was defending democracy from the corrupt libs. The right has spin for everything that's wrong with MAGA. It falls apart with even a little rational scrutiny but that doesn't matter if your relationship to it is primarily emotional, mostly based on fear and outrage. Which of course the right excels at triggering.
So yea, I am not necessarily against identity politics
For me it goes farther than that, I think many of the core tenets of progressive identity politics are vital not just for expanding people's rights but for creating a healthy society. I think the strategies need work though. As you say, it's not connecting with a lot of Americans and we'll need a good sized chunk of them in future elections.
If you tell them: your safety and your economic concerns are the top priority, and they believe it, a lot of them are likely to accept the rest of the platform in the same way they have with Trump. After which it will be a lot easier to educate them about what the other parts of the platform actually are.
just means insisting that anything except their corporate capture is the issue
Yep. I just hope there will be enough public support in the nearish future to force the democratic party to give ground to the real progressives. It'll have to be loud and persistent, the old guard's grip on the party has the strength of rigor mortis at this point, waiting for them to age out doesn't seem to be an option.
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Comment on Things progressives get wrong in ~society
post_below Link Parent[...] I'm reading your post as genuine, rather than an attempt to make a foregone verdict sound like something other than what it is. I hope that's true. What I hear is that you've experienced a...I know your post isn't that extreme, but it does contain a lot of 'well, they're not all Nazis', so I'd put it in the same category: Here We Go Again.
[...]
policing whether people who are being targeted by the regime are allowed to feel upset or not.
I'm pretty sure that wasn't the intent of your post, but given how it's developed - and especially, your responses to challenges - I just find it insane that you are surprised people interpret things uncharitably here.
I'm reading your post as genuine, rather than an attempt to make a foregone verdict sound like something other than what it is. I hope that's true.
What I hear is that you've experienced a lot of small mindedness, ignorance and hostility that has left you burnt out on anything that even feels like it leans in that direction.
Likely also the current state of things in the western world, and maybe America in particular, creates a feeling of hostility to your existence that's just sort of always there. Or maybe more of a feeling than there was before would be a better way to say it.
I hope that doesn't come across as presumptuous. I don't claim to know anything about your life and experience, those are just feelings that marginalized people I've known seem to share in common. A lot of relatively non-marginalized people too for that matter.
Putting aside explanations, having tried to clarify more than enough already: I'm sorry for contributing to that.
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Comment on Things progressives get wrong in ~society
post_below Link ParentThere haven't been conversations about rights being attacked that I've been aware of. Though now I wonder about defnotafay who I made indeed have misread. Some feedback about the way you're coming...It also vaguely strikes me as coming from a position of privilege and fragility. You're repeatedly responding to people in this thread who are raising real concerns about any kind of representation and even responding to people who are directly being targeted by the current administration and dismissing their concerns or redirecting to your feeling about how messaging is too polarizing or violent. Not only does it feel to me like you're seemingly putting yourself in a position of authority as opposed to listening and empathizing, but it also feels to me like it's coming from a place of privilege in that you can tell them what issues are more important when their rights are directly being attacked, right now, and many of them are fearing for their safety.
There haven't been conversations about rights being attacked that I've been aware of. Though now I wonder about defnotafay who I made indeed have misread.
Some feedback about the way you're coming across from my perspective: Your word choice is measured but the content is something else entirely. It's kinda dark.
It feels weird that you're making these bold claims about what I and other posters are experiencing. Like you've appointed yourself to a role. One that isn't appropriate among perfect strangers.
As I write this I'm increasingly leaning toward the conclusion that I'm missing some context here and I've stumbled in good faith into a conversation that maybe has a lot going on that has little to do with me.
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Comment on Things progressives get wrong in ~society
post_below Link ParentBecause they said historically and I remembered the time period I imagined they were referring to. What I've seen on Tildes is largely tolerant and often kind, especially relative to my overall...Because they said historically and I remembered the time period I imagined they were referring to.
What I've seen on Tildes is largely tolerant and often kind, especially relative to my overall experience of the internet. Though of course there are sometimes exceptions.
Caveat: I don't read anywhere near the bulk of what gets posted so no doubt I miss a lot of what happens
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Comment on Things progressives get wrong in ~society
post_below Link ParentApologies for anything I misread. Possibly reading your post in the context of the topic caused me to jump to conclusions. I'll try to get this bit right: No argument that there's lumping...Apologies for anything I misread. Possibly reading your post in the context of the topic caused me to jump to conclusions.
I'll try to get this bit right:
I specifically said we also need to stop judging the left based on what outliers say, because frankly I think posts like this, which have become rather common, are lumping in all progressives with a relatively few outliers.
No argument that there's lumping happening in all directions. My experience, especially since the election, is that it's too many people to be characterized as outliers. I happily accept that I misread you and, for example, you weren't calling the right as a group Nazis, however we can find examples even in this topic of people doing just that.
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Comment on Things progressives get wrong in ~society
post_below Link ParentI'm not sure I could have used any more qualifying language (some, many, etc..) without making my post(s) outright annoying to read. I don't think I said it was too left. I know I don't believe...it's rather strange you're characterizing an entire party of people by the actions of a few
I'm not sure I could have used any more qualifying language (some, many, etc..) without making my post(s) outright annoying to read.
I also find it strange that you think this place is too left or unwelcoming
I don't think I said it was too left. I know I don't believe it's too far left. I'm positive I didn't say it was unwelcoming. Certainly I've seen unwelcoming moments where newer posters appeared to leave and never return as a result, but that's just online forums, overall I'd call Tildes unusually welcoming.
it's a rather center-left space that's historically had issues with pushing out minorities and folks who are further left.
I recall a period, long ago, when you were talking a lot about some people who left. I think I was fairly new to Tildes at the time... I don't remember the posters, I'm not sure I even saw the threads they were involved in. My impression at the time was that it was pretty normal forum turnover but it sounded like you were close with some of them? I'm curious why it's relevant all these years down the road?
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Comment on Things progressives get wrong in ~society
post_below Link ParentOf course we can change. We used to murder each other at much higher rates, for example. The drives and impulses that caused us to do that are still in us, but we've learned to handle them...I really want to stress my rejection of this in particular, because to believe this is to give up on changing it.
Of course we can change. We used to murder each other at much higher rates, for example. The drives and impulses that caused us to do that are still in us, but we've learned to handle them differently. The same is true for tribalism and all manner of other things.
The point is not that humans are static, it's that humans are humans. Animal drives mitigated by modern forebrains. Accepting the former, rather than wishing it were otherwise, makes the latter easier.
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Comment on Things progressives get wrong in ~society
post_below Link ParentAbsolutely, misinformation is a big factor. How much racism plays a part is debatable. Not whether it plays a part, it definitely does. But I don't think it's fair to lump everyone who voted for...- Exemplary
They're also being lied to about economic reform and who will benefit/be harmed, generally actively inflaming racist/xenophobic tendencies into the full "deportations now" and "welfare queens" rhetoric today. But many people will not vote for economic reform if they think it'll help Black people too not even instead.
Absolutely, misinformation is a big factor.
How much racism plays a part is debatable. Not whether it plays a part, it definitely does. But I don't think it's fair to lump everyone who voted for Trump, and the other conservative representatives that gave them control of both houses, in with the worst of the MAGA crowd.
People of faith will far too often change what they believe their faith teaches rather than show the charity their God demands. People do this, and will keep doing it, but they're choosing it, not being pushed there.
You're right, especially much of modern evangelical leadership. The extent of their hypocrisy and scheming could be its own thread.
We should be real about that situation though, the bible compares believers to a flock. They take pride in going where their authority figures lead. Some are choosing it, others have just been indoctrinated from birth to trust their church. It's another group that I think it's unfair to judge based on their worst examples, despite the societal damage the group has done.
In pre-Nazi Germany
Again, yes, there are Nazis in the MAGA camp, but that doesn't make the whole group of voters Nazis. Voters as a whole are notoriously less informed and less engaged than people who are informed and engaged imagine. That's never been as true as it is now, with so many relying on Fox news (or their people's interpretation of Fox news) or similar for their information.
But if, for arguments sake, we say that they're like the Nazis, then that's it, abandon hope. It turned out the only way to stop the Nazis was to kill them. Is that where we want to go?
I'm not saying it definitely won't all go badly off the rails, there's a lot that's uncertain and a lot that's deeply wrong about what's been happening. But I don't think it's time to give up yet. And if we're not giving up, votes are going to matter a lot. I don't think calling people Nazis is going to help with that.
We don't need to stop talking about equality and civil rights
I did the best I could to avoid this kind of hyperbolic interpretation. I don't think we should stop talking about equality and civil rights, I think we should change how we talk about them. More empathy, more education, less dictation and judgement.
For example, my younger brother is an open minded, live and let live sort of person. He was raised in an environment with positive exposure to people of varying sexual identities and racial backgrounds. He has good reason, from his own life experience, to understand and empathize with people who are pushed to the edges of society by preconceived notions.
Some time ago, during a period where trans issues were getting a lot of attention, he said something implying that he didn't really get why a person would want to be something other than what they were born as. Probably he was going to go on to say something like "why choose a harder life?". I don't know, I responded before he got that far.
I might have said "oh no, not you too!" which a part of me was feeling, or "what's wrong with you, don't you know it's not ok to say that!?" or some other reactionary thing.
Instead I told him that a lot of trans people, after they start living as the gender that feels right to them, say they feel comfortable in their own skin in a way that they never had before.
That made sense to him, like instantly. He just got it, he immediately felt empathy. When I had more to say, he didn't need to hear it because he was no longer confused about trans people.
Which is a pretty singular example that doesn't directly extrapolate to the larger world. We're brothers, there's built in trust and respect. He's inherently a tolerant guy.
But there are two points in the story which I think are important. First, he wasn't coming from a malicious place even though he used words that malicious people sometimes use. Second, I didn't respond like he was an asshole, or direct my frustrations about intolerance at him, I responded like he was exploring something he didn't fully understand in good faith. The conversation could have been very different.
One thing that I think is sometimes easy to forget for people that have been immersed for a long time in social justice, and the self examination and empathy that goes along with it, is that some of these concepts are really foreign to people at first.
For a lot of people there's a period of shock, along with big emotions they don't fully understand. Not just with trans issues, but anything that's far enough outside of what they're familiar with.
Slapping them upside the head in those moments doesn't tend to create the desired outcome. For my brother there was refreshingly quick understanding but of course that's rarely the case. People need time, space and often repeated exposure to get used to something new. It helps a lot if they feel safe during the process.
Another point I think is important is that people are a product of their environment to a far greater degree than most of us like to admit. We do change our environments sometimes, but usually reluctantly and usually only if the one we're in is uncomfortable enough, and the alternative inviting enough. People actively choose their worldviews only some of the time, the bulk comes from the people and ideas they're exposed to most often.
I think much of the left could do a better job of creating an environment worth moving to. The same people who shifted right in the last election could very easily shift back left, and even some of the more committed right along with them.
And as far as I can tell, he didn't have to throw trans people under the bus.
This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Who said anything about throwing trans people under the bus?
Do you really believe that's what I meant? Is the idea that I don't have the courage to just come out and say the awful things I think but you can see them when you read between the lines?
Or was someone else talking about throwing trans people under the bus and I missed it?
I'm allowing for the possibility that I'm misreading something in your re-interpretations. And no doubt you have good reasons for your frustration.
But if someone is looking to change up their environment, they're not likely to pick one that looks hostile right out of the gate.
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Comment on Things progressives get wrong in ~society
post_below Link ParentYes it's a bit of both. I wasn't trying to say that the progressive focus is misplaced, or not exactly. Rather that progressives have managed to alienate a bunch of people who would happily vote...Yes it's a bit of both. I wasn't trying to say that the progressive focus is misplaced, or not exactly. Rather that progressives have managed to alienate a bunch of people who would happily vote for economic reform but don't want anything to do with what they perceive the progressive worldview to be.
In a lot of cases I think that's because they misunderstand what that worldview is. Part of that is misinformation (Fox News, the internet, certain religious leaders, Russian disinformation campaigns) but some of it is also that (many) people on the left have been heavy handed, absolutist and intolerant in their discourse.
We're so quick to label based on associations we've made in the past. If someone sounds even a little bit like the enemy, we treat them like the enemy. And that has been turned up to 10 by the last election.
Meanwhile there are signs of growing buyers remorse with this administration and every reason to believe that will continue. I'm hoping we'll take the high road and welcome those people instead of continuing to shout at them. One way to do that indirectly is to go all in on the things they can relate to, while having patience with the things they don't understand yet. As it happens the things they can relate to (economics) are also at the root of all the other problems we want to solve
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Comment on Things progressives get wrong in ~society
post_below Link ParentOr is that, until recently, whenever a candidate focused on those issues people came out of the woodwork to explain that the American dream is still alive and well and people just needed to work...Is it that progressive voters are genuinely more concerned by social issues than broad economic reforms? Is it that the media just makes it seem that way by what they choose to highlight? Or is it that voters have no meaningful option to vote for broad economic reform anyway, so the best they can do is support social progress? If I were to guess I'd say more of the latter two options, with a sprinkling of the first.
Or is that, until recently, whenever a candidate focused on those issues people came out of the woodwork to explain that the American dream is still alive and well and people just needed to work harder and we don't need radical communist ideas so they should get out of the way and let everyone carry on lifting themselves up by their own bootstraps? While meanwhile the corporate media and the political machine would get to work making sure, at the behest of capital, that dangerous ideas like wage growth, regulation, monopoly busting, corporate tax increases and unions didn't stand a chance of making it into a general election.
The second bit is still going to happen, if anything worse than before. But I think we might collectively be close to ready to demand representation that cares about average people. I don't think awareness of the degree of capitalist corruption in government has ever been higher.
I hope you're right that the message can get through, I truly do, but I don't believe it.
This seems to be a popular sentiment, and I get it. You might even be right. But I don't think we should give up hope just yet.
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Comment on Things progressives get wrong in ~society
post_below Link ParentThanks for posting your story, it's a great example. I think there's opportunity for people to come in from the cold online too, especially if online spaces were kinder to people who say the...If they had attacked me for having the “wrong” views and shunned me, I would likely be in the same place I was back then.
Thanks for posting your story, it's a great example.
Offline interaction and experiences are the only way to expand someone’s understanding of others’ experiences.
I think there's opportunity for people to come in from the cold online too, especially if online spaces were kinder to people who say the "wrong" things. Easier said than done, of course, but worth trying for. I've read a few stories of people who were deradicalized in online spaces
I agree, though, that there's no substitute for actual in person connection.
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Comment on Things progressives get wrong in ~society
post_below (edited )Link ParentOh me too, especially the extreme ones. The true MAGAs are straight up bigots, or many of them anyway. They just don't represent everyone on the right, or so I like to believe. I think there's...I can actually understand the vitriolic talk and feelings towards Trump supporters
Oh me too, especially the extreme ones. The true MAGAs are straight up bigots, or many of them anyway. They just don't represent everyone on the right, or so I like to believe. I think there's solid evidence for that in the numbers, even if I don't know many of them personally.
I think regardless of how many of them are truly hateful, it's still a mistake to group and judge people.
We had a truck with a 6x10 foot banner parked outside city hall that read "the city manager fletches (which is eating cum out of someone's asshole) for the gay agenda" because we got a rainbow crosswalk in town.
That's fucked up. And judging individual actions is a completely different story.
AOC
She seems to be the heir apparent. I hope she turns out to be as true and unshakeable a believer as Bernie.
Edit: @rosco I just noticed what may be a typo in your post. The term for eating cum out of assholes would be "felches" after "felcher" (looked it up to be sure) but you wrote "fletches" as in "fletcher".
I really hope the typo was on the signboard and not just your post, and I hope the arrows being fletched for the gay agenda are cupid arrows and 10 to 1 odds that at least one of the signboard makers is in deep denial about how badly they want to get hit with one of those arrows.
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Comment on Things progressives get wrong in ~society
post_below (edited )Link ParentBe fair, that was the culmination of a lot of very slow progress, the biggest step of which was going from gay sex being outright illegal to it no longer being a crime. And even now that progress...We went from "It's controversial to support being openly gay in the military" to "gay marriage is legal" inside of 10 years.
Be fair, that was the culmination of a lot of very slow progress, the biggest step of which was going from gay sex being outright illegal to it no longer being a crime. And even now that progress has only happened in some parts of the world.
They started criminalizing homosexuality in Europe in the middle ages (when they would kill you for it) and, using the US as an example, only started decriminalizing it in 60's and 70's, culminating in the supreme court decision in the early 2000's declaring sodomy laws unconstitutional. That's an example of progress that took centuries.
Sometimes apparent change can happen quickly, but the vast majority of the time it takes a lot of time, and work, to reach the critical mass for the flashpoint change to become possible.
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Comment on Things progressives get wrong in ~society
post_below Link ParentI don't think I've read these op-eds so I can't say if I agree with them. But if the sentiment is that the left is too far left, I disagree completely. Moreover, I wouldn't say that progressive...I believe, some of your post aligns with a huge number of op-eds with everyone from Ezra Klein to Andrew Yang to Johnny Harris jumping on the bandwagon. "The lefties in the party are to blame for the Democrats losing the election", "progressive policies are causing our issues"
I don't think I've read these op-eds so I can't say if I agree with them. But if the sentiment is that the left is too far left, I disagree completely.
Moreover, I wouldn't say that progressive policies are a problem. It's the messaging that has backfired.
To clarify, my intent was to talk about our collective approach, and discourse, rather than about politicians on the left. I agree completely that politicians on both sides are working for (largely) the same monied interests.
Your point that the political left kept trying to tell people everything was great while their lived experience said otherwise is exactly right. The fact that the right has been loudly saying things aren't ok, even if it's a cynical ploy rather than a true stance, is enough to motivate a lot of votes when the alternative isn't addressing those concerns at all.
Which is ultimately where I've landed, we need to rally around the one set of issues that are guaranteed to resonate with majority of the population and support any non MAGA candidate who even claims to care. Both locally and nationally.
Right now the republicans, and Musk, are doing a fantastic job of showing the people that they only care about their own socioeconomic class. Meanwhile the democrats are unlikely to put forth candidates who speak to issues like legislative capture and wealth inequality unless the public is very loudly demanding it. Bernie is out there trying to rally support for exactly that, we just have to listen and respond.
Do people actually hear about these things with any regularity?
I don't know, perhaps not specific phrases, like "check your privilege" but I only used the concept of privilege as one example of whole genre of things. It's the vibe of discourse that includes all sorts of ideas that only make sense if you already understand the nuance, along with a lot of overt and implicit judgement.
It's also a lot of vitriolic talk about Trump voters, and conservatives in general, even when the numbers tell us that there's a big chunk of those voters who are not part of the base. People who are more likely to change their support if we stop alienating them.
and bring back my girl Lina Khan!
Amen.
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Things progressives get wrong
Two things to get out of the way in advance... First: Some of this post is US-centric but the issues apply to much of the western world. Second: I'm a progressive. What that means to me is that we...
Two things to get out of the way in advance... First: Some of this post is US-centric but the issues apply to much of the western world. Second: I'm a progressive. What that means to me is that we should strive for tolerance, compassion and equality in culture and in our systems. We should use more of the excess production afforded by technology to take care of people than we currently do. Capitalism should be kept in check by strong state regulation. I'm not a communist, until we come up with a better economic solution which hasn't failed repeatedly in the past I believe capitalism is our best option. It just needs guardrails, some of which are socialist.
I don't mean for that to be an exhaustive description of progressivism, I just want to make it clear where I stand before I say things that, in my experience, often evoke big feelings
Big enough feelings that, somewhat often here at Tildes, I've seen posts interpreted in remarkably uncharitable ways. That's part of the motivation for my disclaimer, but not this whole post. My goal is to talk about things I believe are genuinely important if our aim is to make a better world.
As a whole, Tildes is one of the kindest and most emotionally intelligent forums I've experienced, which is why the areas where that slips are notable and speak to some of the failings of progressives at large.
One of the ideas I've seen repeated here and elsewhere which I believe is a problem:
- In reference to the far right: "Fuck them they need to meet us halfway. Or at least make some sort of good faith effort".
It turns out they don't need to do that. They just needed to vote for Trump and MAGA representatives.
They don't need to check their privilege. That's what we want. They don't really understand what we're even talking about. They don't feel lucky, they feel like their life is hard and no one is going out of their way to give them anything. They've just lived through a couple of decades of progressive social wins culminating in a widespread, ad hoc, campaign to loudly and self righteously shout down any viewpoint that doesn't conform to the new progressive gospel. That left them feeling like there wasn't a place for them in this new culture. It left them feeling marginalized.
At this point some reading this are likely having big feelings. Straight white men can't be marginalized! I don't disagree. But I didn't say they were marginalized, I said they felt marginalized. Their feelings matter. Or they should matter.
And it's not just straight white men, convenient as that would be. We know this from the last election. It's women and brown people too. Immigrants even. There were a lot of surprising demographic shifts to the right. The backlash to progressivism is real and widespread. I believe it's a big part of how we got here, with MAGA in full control of the government.
I know this isn't new information, we've been talking about it since 2016, but I'm not sure it's really sunk in yet.
Because here's the thing: In a way the people that have recently been voting for far right representation actually are marginalized. Many of them are financially insecure. A lot of them are socially insecure. That's a type of marginalization that spans demographics. And yes, groups like LGBTQ+ people, members of disfavored racial and ethnic groups and so on have it much worse. But they don't understand that because, like everyone, they're just trying to survive their own lives.
And we've been telling them, as they go bankrupt trying to keep their sick child alive in a broken medical system, that they need to recognize their privilege. We haven't tried, in any meaningful way, to have compassion and help them understand where we're coming from. We're just throwing these ideas at them, completely failing to understand they they have no context for making sense of them. Historically speaking these are pretty new ideas, they require completely reframing concepts that the western world has taken for granted for decades. That takes time.
They're struggling to pay bills and feed their families while we tell them that it's really important for people who feel like they were born into the wrong body to have support and medical care and use women's bathrooms. Step back and think about how much of a shock that is in a world that has recognized exactly two genders, determined by birth, for all of its history. It takes time for new ideas that big to digest. But, riding the aforementioned wave of progressive cultural wins, not realizing it had already peaked and was about to start receding, despite copious evidence, we just tried to ram it home. And now we lament the results and are reluctant to learn from our mistakes.
We want to create national change. Global change. But we choose niche issues and put them front and center in our messaging. And we do it without even a nod toward empathy for the majority of the population which hasn't had time to consider or digest this new information. We skipped the education step entirely. We're idiots.
I firmly include myself in that we. In 2016 I drew a line. I said, I may not have all the answers but if you can't see Trump for the bigoted, emotionally stunted, narcissist that he is then there is something wrong with your basic understanding of humanity and I have no use for you. I was an idiot.
It's not enough to be morally right, and there putting aside that morality will always be subjective. Politics is about strategy. Population level change is about strategy. Winning hearts and minds across large and varied populations requires easy to digest messaging. The right understands this. It may not be the world that we want to live in, but it's the world that exists. I saw this quote in a blog post, and then again recently on Tildes, no idea where it originally came from:
If your solution to some problem relies on “If everyone would just…” then you do not have a solution. Everyone is not going to just. At no time in the history of the universe has everyone just, and they’re not going to start now.
Change takes time and work and we tried to skip ahead because we were so sure that we were right. And here I want to circle back to my disclaimer: I believe we were right. That we live in a world where we have to fight for the rights of people to live however they choose to live, when they're hurting no one, is maddening. It's just fucking nuts. I wholeheartedly support the rights of marginalized people. I wish the human race wasn't inherently bigoted, that we didn't have this built in tribal impulse to draw us versus them lines, that we didn't recoil from things we don't understand.
But we can't ignore history. The human race has always been like this and it has always taken time to change things. Social change is a slow process. Just like women's rights were a slow process. Just like ending slavery was a slow process. And neither of those fights are over.
We pushed too hard, too fast, and this is the result. Brexit, Trump, Austria’s (Nazi) Freedom Party, far right gains all over Europe.
I don't mean to imply that social justice is the only reason for the rise of the far right. In fact I don't even think it's the core issue. I believe the core issue is unchecked capitalism. The ever-growing wealth gap, the capture of government by wealthy industries, the rise of multibillionaires. We focus on social justice while everyone is worried about taking care of their families and we wonder why our message doesn't resonate.
We tell people that the way they see the world, the way they were raised, is wrong but we don't first help them understand why. We don't like the political reality we're living in and we blame it on half the population rather than the systems. It's easier to be mad at people than systems.
But it's the systems we need to change. Yes we need to change people too, but first we need to take care of them. People that are just trying to survive are not attuned to nuance. They're not going to take it well when you tell them about other people's problems. If you tell them that if you're not on our side, you're against us then they're going to say "fine, I'm against you". Indeed that's exactly what they've been saying lately.
We need to own that. We did that.
In a little under two years (in the US) we're going to have the opportunity to come together and swing the pendulum back the other way. Leading up to that the focus should be on things that unite us, not things that divide us. And the biggest thing that unites us is that we're tired of our capital controlled political systems. We're tired of politicians that are in it for their donors rather than their constituents. We're tired of the top .01% siphoning off more and more of the resources. That's straightforward and easy to understand and it will absolutely resonate.
And, disclaimer once more, I'm not saying we should stop fighting for people's rights, that's a fight that should never end. But the modern far right in power is a monolithic threat to people's rights and, as such, our main focus should be on solving that problem above all others. We can do that by centering our messaging on issues that resonate with everyone and by having some grace when dealing with the people that voted the right into power rather than demonizing them. We need those people as allies. We can't afford to be stubborn or small minded no matter how stubborn and small minded we think the "others" are.
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Comment on What quotes inspire you? in ~talk
post_below Link ParentI think normal is something more than that. It's a result of humanity's innate, evolved, need to fit in. Once upon a time, for a very long time, getting kicked out of the group more often than not...I think normal is something more than that. It's a result of humanity's innate, evolved, need to fit in. Once upon a time, for a very long time, getting kicked out of the group more often than not meant the end of your genetic line. Which is pretty strong selective pressure.
I reject the idea of normal too, but it's not a conspiracy of oppression, it's just an imperfect manifestion of ancient drives that predate our modern forebrains.
There's great comfort (even if it's subconscious) in feeling so well within the lines that there's no danger of accidentally slipping outside of them and into the dark.
I like to think that someday we'll collectively understand the drives which inform our behavior better and, as a result, be more intentional about how we let them manifest.
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Comment on Do topic logs get deleted after a period of time? in ~tildes
post_below (edited )Link ParentIt seems to me that if you don't notice the changes within 30 days, they aren't concerning. Certainly anonymization is well worth the tradeoff. Also the folks who edit titles and whatnot at Tildes...It seems to me that if you don't notice the changes within 30 days, they aren't concerning. Certainly anonymization is well worth the tradeoff.
Also the folks who edit titles and whatnot at Tildes have never done anything questionable as far as I know. Hypotheticals are an endless rabbit hole that doesn't benefit anyone.
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Comment on China executed four Canadians for drug crimes, says Ottawa in ~news
post_below LinkThis paragraph is arguing with itself. According to China these were not foreigners. I wasn't able to find out for sure in my brief searching but statistically they were very likely born in China...China does not recognise dual citizenship and takes a tough stance on drug crimes. However, it's rare for the death penalty to be carried out on foreigners.
This paragraph is arguing with itself. According to China these were not foreigners. I wasn't able to find out for sure in my brief searching but statistically they were very likely born in China and become citizens of Canada later. If that's the case, having been born in China they understood that China would forever consider them Chinese.
Is it unusual for China to execute people it considers Chinese nationals? Not even a little bit, by some accounts China executes more people per year than the rest of the world combined. Which is fucked up and also too interesting a part of the story to leave out entirely. It feels disingenuous.
My only issue is with the journalistic choices, which I found echoed by other western publications. I completely agree with the sentiment that killing people for drug crimes is wrong.
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Comment on Perhaps I should write worse? in ~talk
post_below LinkFrom my perspective it's about intent, if you're writing a certain way to project intelligence or make up for insecurity then it's worth considering changing your writing. If it's just how you...From my perspective it's about intent, if you're writing a certain way to project intelligence or make up for insecurity then it's worth considering changing your writing.
If it's just how you communicate, and the majority of readers understand you, don't worry about it.
You definitely seem to be in the latter group, and I personally appreciate love of language and written communication. Don't change anything!
I sometimes think that it works like a bonus filtration method. People who are intimidated by fluent use of language usually have a particular set of issues that I'm quite happy not to have in my life. When they enthusiastically identify themselves I like to think it's best for everyone concerned!
Note that I'm referring to people who are upset by it, not people who aren't great with language arts, I have nothing against them.
Yeah I definitely had that wrong!
Tildes is accepting and open minded in comparison to my general experience of online spaces. There are more accepting places, but Tildes is well ahead of the general curve. I stand by that. But I didn't intend that to be dismissive of people's experiences here, I think I've mostly managed to miss the worst threads in that area.