What do you think about how women are depicted in "The Book of the New Sun" by Gene Wolfe?
It's one of those highly praised series that I've been waiting to read for years. When I finally did (I bought the full set of used and slightly wearied paper books), I bounced off quick. I tried reading it in 2019, so my memory of that book ("The Shadow of the Torturer") is foggy, but I wrote down some notes at the time.
I dropped the book somewhere around the Botanical Gardens, mostly because of very annoying female characters, all of whom were the protagonists so-called love interests. It seemed like every attractive woman he met would fall for him and it was so unnatural. I don't even have a problem with the idea per se, for example I'm buying into how macho-men are getting women in Wilbur Smith's adventure books because it feels organic, in Wolfe's book it was like a teenage boy fantasy.
I don't actually remember it well, but here's an excerpt from what I noted at the time:
I don't understand Severian's actions - he is challenged to a duel using the flower of vengeance - neither he nor the reader knows what's going on. At the same time, he is tasked with reaching Thrax and assuming the position of local executioner there. He interrupts his journey and decides to take up the challenge, of course, with a girl he has just met in some inn. He is convicted and instead of serving his sentence, he engages in some foolishness. I wanted the girl to disappear from the pages of the novel. Then a second woman appears and I feel that there will also be something between her and Severian.
The Polish edition which I read is 326 pages long, I dropped off at page 245, I just couldn't bear it anymore. I occasionally see those books, either on my shelf (I have not given them away) or in stores and keep thinking that maybe I misunderstood it or didn't see their greatness and wondering if it would click if I tried again.
Maybe it is just me?
It gets much worse during the later books. But it is certainly all on purpose - because Severian is an unreliable narrator, and one of the best I have read. It's often subtle, but he frequently omits and lies. So of course he has perfect memory, wins every fight and every woman he meets immediately falls for him. It's his story, after all, and he tells it.
I think its interesting, and every time it happens again you gain some small insight into what really happened. One of his later conquests is almost certainly rape, for example, but only between the lines.
That was my take on the series as well, what's actually happening doesn't always seem to match up with how it's being described on the page, as if things were being left out. Whether it's allegory for something else or an unreliable narrator, I've never been entirely too sure, but it's been awhile since I went through the series. For some reason I stopped after I got to the Book of the Long Sun and couldn't quite get going with that series, but I've gone back through Book of the New Sun once or twice more just because I felt like I had missed some parts of the story the first go round. I don't typically do that with most books.
It happened to me almost exactly in the same part of the book, around the botanical gardens and the subsequent duel bit. I've heard the series being praised for a long time, on Reddit and elsewhere, and even found a great hardcover edition from Folio Society, which I almost bought. Luckily I didn't.
Some passages reminded me of things I've read in r/menwritingwomen. Couldn't finish it.
That's kinda the point though. Of course Gene Wolfe wasn't like that as a person. You can read up about the author if you'd like, as well.
Severian certainly was a terrible person though. Severian is a very unreliable narrator. He's not much of a hero - in fact he's an asshole, a rapist and a lot more. But he is telling the story, so you should doubt much of what he says.
The book/series doesn't tell you outright about a hell of a lot of context. A second read really makes it clear. Or, a close first read with knowledge about the series if you don't mind spoiling yourself on plot points.
For what it's worth I think Severian does have solid character growth in some areas, not ignoring his other worse character aspects of course.
You just have to keep reading, and read between the lines.
Perhaps Severian is unreliable (I didn't read far enough), but I can't imagine it being worth reading further when it's just absolutely eyerolling to read. I don't doubt you that there is plenty of subtext to the series, but if you're meant to parodying a thing, but you dive so deep that you are what you're making fun of, is it really parody?
I can't recall if I finished Shadow of the Torturer and moved on to the next book or not, but the last thing I recall his him riding a horse analogue and killing some flying creature. The entirety of what I read felt like an author self-insert and became tedious to read; I feel like it might have been better if there had been some indication early on that the narrator is unreliable or at least some humility on his part, anything to make him slightly more likable and make the book less cringe-inducing.
Severian is definitely not a self insert.
The book is just written from the perspective of Severian. Maybe more importantly, it's both his point of view and his retelling of the story. It's a kind of propaganda if you take it in the context that he tells you he becomes the Autarch eventually, in the first chapter.
He's a deeply flawed, narcissistic, slightly (maybe more than slightly) insane person.
You're along for the ride of what its like in Severian's mind, not just getting a story to linearly read.
I don't think any of Wolfe's books tell you outright that you're in the narrator's head but that's essentially how he writes his main characters.
If you don't enjoy it, maybe it just isn't for you and that's perfectly fine too. I personally find it captivating and think Wolfe is a fantastic writer.
The majority of them start with "this is someone who is reading a record" and so the record's author is the POV character, and in his world, not infallible. In fact almost always extremely human when it comes to lies, deceit, and re-framing history to make themselves look better.
I got through the series missing most of the "sub story" (because that's what it is, believe me) and still enjoyed it, but it wasn't until I started realizing what was going on that I understood why Wolfe is a once in a generation style author.
That said, he's not for everyone. I bounced off of the magician knight (or whatever it was) hard, and it more than others I feel doesn't quite handle it's sub story well/believably
Yea, The Wizard Knight was one I really liked because it was so out there in some places. Not that BoTNS isn't as well, it very much is. But that's also a small part of why I enjoy it so much as well, taken as a whole.
I heard The Wizard Knight was targeted more towards young adults/older teens than most of Wolfe's work and I was pretty interested to see what that was like.
I sorta expected it to be a bit more classic fantasy-ish so maybe I went in primed to expect a certain feel through the books - I felt like it delivered pretty well in that regard. It's a shorter read, and pretty poignant in some places.
To me it felt...off? I just didn't buy the concept (kid in adult body)? I felt like I was missing something because it sure seemed like an extremely odd interpretation of a child.
I actually checked Wikipedia this morning to see if Wolfe was married :D (he was)
That explanation makes more sense, but then I dislike the protagonist. I also get a feeling that if the narrator is lying to me, then what's the point of me listening to him..? I don't know. I guess the concept is too difficult for me, maybe.
I totally understand, it's also a dense series in general. A lot of people bounce off of it.
If you wanna try some Gene Wolfe that is more accessible, I'd recommend The Wizard Knight. It's a boy's coming of age story wrapped up in a bit of Norse and Authurian legend-esque ideas, with a dose of mysticism thrown in too.
I don't see many people talking about it, but I personally enjoyed it a lot.
I just recently recommended it in another thread.
One thing that should be made absolutely clear: All of Gene Wolfe's protagonists are highly unreliable first person narrators. He was known for it. You get to be in their heads for a time and experience their world through the lens of their biases, shortcomings and general ignorance.
The Unreliable Narrator is a somewhat common trope that's been used throughout fiction, it can add an unexpected twist to the story. You might get all the way through the story, only to discover that this supposedly objective narrator you've been reading the whole time isn't entirely who they said they were, it then throws everything else into question that's happened up to that point. You have to backtrack to see where they may have been leading you astray. It kind of forces the reader to actually read between the lines, there's like two separate stories going on: what they say happens and what's really happening. I find it interesting and I love when it happens, it makes me feel clever when I piece two and two together and figure out what's happening, or I feel like a jackass when I miss something blindingly obvious and only realize what happened after I read somebody else's explanation of it. It adds another layer of storytelling.
One of the biggest things I think I missed was in A Song of Ice and Fire by GRR Martin (Game of Thrones), a few rather prominent characters are gay (not a big deal in and of itself, but it changes the nature of their relationship), which I somehow completely missed on my read through. I remember all the signs that were mentioned, small talk between characters, symbols, but it never felt like it was explicitly pointed out (ok, the rainbow flags should've been a hint). It was only after watching the Game of Thrones tv series that it became COMPLETELY OBVIOUS what was happening. This isn't really an instance of an unreliable narrator, but it's the same sort of thing that you would see with an unreliable narrator, you have to look for hints to see what's really happening in the story.
GRRM does the whole unreliable narrator thing several times for key important plot points including whether a certain kiss may or may not have happened.
As an aside, I hated how the relationship between
Loras becomes a rather interesting character with a lot going on and Jaime's assessment of him when they talk in the White Tower is layered like an onion. It's fantastic characterization. Some more:
The show on the other hand just treats Loras like a boytoy and a joke. It's infuriating.
Yeah, they completely took out any subtlety with the relationship because apparently HBO contractually requires at least 10 minutes of nudity per episode. In my case it did help me understand what was going on a bit better, as I think I had just assumed that the knight was just really committed to his King... I just didn't realize how committed he was.
I understood that when they were doing the show that some things would have to get cut to be able to fit it all in, I figured there was no way around that, but the infuriating thing was all that they had to cut in order to make way for just these pointless sex scenes in EVERY episode. And I don't consider myself a prude, I don't mind nudity or sex, but it really got in the way of the story in this series (in addition to the actual bad screenwriting). Still so salty about this series and it's been years since it ended, I'll never forgive D&D for how that show turned out.
This book(s) is one of my favorites and I would say that the depiction of women is from Severian's perspective.
This is not necessarily relevant to the thread, but OP's question made me think of a book from the mid-90s called The Fermata, that I bounced off for nearly the same reason.
The story is about a guy who can stop time. What does he do with this? Mischief, naturally, but quite a lot of the book seemed to be concerned with mischief he gets up to with frozen ladies. In its defense, I guess, Wikipedia does describe it as an "erotic novel," but it felt more like a rape fantasy to me. 🤢
I came across it around the same time as the movie Hollow Man released, which has an infamous deleted scene in which the invisible main character rapes a co-worker at her home. Both struck me as being pretty ugly pieces of fiction.
The Fermata was pitched to me as Neil Gaiman-style sci-fi, but it felt more like a novel written by a peeping tom than by someone with the self-awareness of, say, Brett Easton Ellis (whose female victims in American Psycho are part of the unreliable narrator's fantasy patchwork).
I will be honest, this is the very first time I hear of this series or the author.
If I find enough reading time I'll nose around the first book and reply again once I've read it!