I really wish I had questions, or thoughts but your response has already answered all of them. This is the greatest and most cohesive comment I've ever read in my five (?) years on this site. If I...
I really wish I had questions, or thoughts but your response has already answered all of them.
This is the greatest and most cohesive comment I've ever read in my five (?) years on this site.
If I have any thoughts or ideas can I message you? I am deeply interested in this.
One of the best articles I've seen on the subject, and among the best Tildes posts of all time. I respect the interest, expertise, and time you've contributed on a very important topic. I suppose...
One of the best articles I've seen on the subject, and among the best Tildes posts of all time. I respect the interest, expertise, and time you've contributed on a very important topic.
I suppose I could do my own homework on this, but did you happen to see concrete proposals for Japan's hydrogen sourcing? Are they planning on "blue" hydrogen (steam reformation of hydrogen from LNG with capture of the resulting CO2), or "green" hydrogen (direct electrolysis of water with solar or other zero carbon power)?
Fantastic comment. Thanks for all the work you put into it. One of the most thorough comments I've read in years. This is my major concern/wonder with moving hydrogen using existing LNG...
Fantastic comment. Thanks for all the work you put into it. One of the most thorough comments I've read in years.
An aside: hydrogen molecules will leak out of metal tanks over time since hydrogen is such a small molecule.
This is my major concern/wonder with moving hydrogen using existing LNG infrastructure. You mentioned ammonia as a transport carrier though which I hadn't heard about before. This published article is fascinating.
That should be much easier to move and transport. However I am now curious as to whether the technology exists to efficiently convert H2 generated by renewables into NH3? This could potentially be a fantastic way for all countries to build grid scale energy storage to offset the variability in renewables output.
You have all the answers! Thanks so much for sharing such great insight. I'm sure there are still challenges to solve but hydrogen could be the magic bullet we've been hoping for. Hydro storage,...
You have all the answers! Thanks so much for sharing such great insight. I'm sure there are still challenges to solve but hydrogen could be the magic bullet we've been hoping for. Hydro storage, thermal storage, battery storage always seemed a bit pie in the sky for full grid scale storage. They'll certainly be part of the mix, but if hydrogen can make use of all this infrastructure we have lying around it could lead to rapid deployment.
it is necessary to increase the pressure in order to use the Haber-Bosch method. It also consumes energy.
This was my main worry, you lose a lot of the energy you just stored to compress and cool hydrogen. If this low pressure method using the new catalyst pans out we could be in a good spot.
I tried googling around and it looks like it's using ruthenium (and possibly lanthanum? Different sources for catalysts so tricky to tell which one specifically seems viable). AFAIK that's quite a rare rare-earth element. The next issue would be whether we have enough global supply to build and maintain enough synthesisers. Might be time to seriously start thinking about asteroid mining.
I would very much like to get you started on asteroid mining one day! Especially if it's as detailed as this fascinating hydrogen comment. Maybe next time there's big news in the space we can have...
I would very much like to get you started on asteroid mining one day! Especially if it's as detailed as this fascinating hydrogen comment. Maybe next time there's big news in the space we can have a topic on it.
there are a lot of talented people working on it
This is why I generally have a positive outlook on the future. The trick is creating enough economic incentive to solving the problem that you can throw these talented problem solvers at the challenge.
I guess we're quite lucky Japan's grid is so bonkers, as it's providing that incentive to solve this piece of the climate change puzzle! Much like how Germany's grid supply incentives helped get solar to where it is today. If only we could incentivise everything as fully.
I hadn't been keeping too abreast of developments in hydrogen fuel cell vehicles as I didn't know about some of the stuff you had shared and dismissed it as not being viable. That's a nice rabbit hole for me to go down now. Been looking up stuff about the polymer fuel cells which looks very interesting (though what I have initially read suggests they still use platinum to split the oxygen).
"The emperor protects" Huge new deal style projects are easy for United governments or authoritarian regimes. Unfortunately I think it's going to be tricky for democracies to do the same scale...
If I were emperor, all the incentives would be on upgrading grids and dumping the US military budget into fusion research
"The emperor protects"
Huge new deal style projects are easy for United governments or authoritarian regimes. Unfortunately I think it's going to be tricky for democracies to do the same scale projects with the 4 year election cycle. Setting up tax incentives, reducing subsidies on polluting industries, providing research budgets, and other measures to artificially create demand for these solutions is probably going to be the way. The war in Ukraine has certainly been a big wake up call for energy independence.
Give those researchers as much budget as they need and let's get something to market. UK universities are heavily incentivised to produce "impact" from their research so hopefully they can keep up the progress on that technology.
Excellent piece of writing! I enjoyed reading every bit of it! Thank you :-) So here's the thing... I get to the end of that and think to myself "ok, sure, their position on hydrogen and electric...
Excellent piece of writing! I enjoyed reading every bit of it! Thank you :-)
So here's the thing... I get to the end of that and think to myself "ok, sure, their position on hydrogen and electric vehicles totally makes sense to me". But why then don't they just come out and say that? Instead we get "studies" from Toyota which conclude that "well we can show why hybrids are actually better for the environment than battery electric", and other things to try to sell the environmental benefits of hydrogen while completely ignoring the actual source of it, etc etc.
I can come up with the perhaps cynical answers in my mind, but perhaps you've got one of your own which would be less so haha.
This was an absolutely incredible read! Thanks so much for the complete write up! Since you seem to be quite knowledgeable in this field I wanted to ask, is the extensive public transportation...
This was an absolutely incredible read! Thanks so much for the complete write up!
Since you seem to be quite knowledgeable in this field I wanted to ask, is the extensive public transportation system in anyway affecting these developments? I'd imagine that the urban Japanese family probably does not have the same auto dependence that we have here in the west, so is that one of the reasons that their auto industry is not keen to change too quickly? Especially since EVs (and most novel auto innovations) come with a massive increase in cost...
Fascinating! I absolutely adore reading about japans rail network but that map you sent takes the cake. Genuinely mind boggling how thorough their public transit is. Also, I really liked the idea...
Fascinating! I absolutely adore reading about japans rail network but that map you sent takes the cake. Genuinely mind boggling how thorough their public transit is.
Also, I really liked the idea of these Kei cars. They’d actually suite my lifestyle quite well if available here.
Japan is betting on hydrogen over lithium ion batteries for electric cars. I'm curious to see how that plays out. On the one hand, hydrogen is easier to store at scale. No country on the world has...
Japan is betting on hydrogen over lithium ion batteries for electric cars. I'm curious to see how that plays out.
On the one hand, hydrogen is easier to store at scale. No country on the world has enough batteries to store an hour of energy production. That makes hydrogen appealing when paired with the inconsistency of solar or wind power.
On the other hand, hydrogen is terrifying. Electrolysis isn't very efficient. Battery technology has a pretty substantial head start.
I completely appreciate the logistical issues with batteries for energy storage. My main problem with this as justification for Japan's support for Hydrogen is that it doesn't solve the issue of...
I completely appreciate the logistical issues with batteries for energy storage. My main problem with this as justification for Japan's support for Hydrogen is that it doesn't solve the issue of energy storage either. Barely any of the hydrogen being used is produced through renewable processes, and the issues with lithium supply for battery production we still face with hydrogen production due to platinum supply issues. Most of the hydrogen Japan is using is still being produced from the fossil fuel industry.
I understand that we shouldn't let perfect be the enemy of good enough, but I'm yet to see how, long-term, hydrogen production improves on the challenges faced by battery storage.
Toyota has been heavy on this, they made a statement a while back that the rest of the industry isn't seeing EVs as the future, a pit stop at best, but hydrogen being easy to fill, and quick plus...
Toyota has been heavy on this, they made a statement a while back that the rest of the industry isn't seeing EVs as the future, a pit stop at best, but hydrogen being easy to fill, and quick plus you can travel long distances, it's the most abundant thing in the universe and you can retrofit gas stations to carry it easier than you can setting up EV quick charge stations which require substations near to carry the loads...it makes hydrogen a no brainer.
Toyota bet big on hydrogen, and the Japanese government doesn't want to leave their largest company out to dry. The nuclear phase-out after Fukushima has also made the clean electricity supply...
Toyota bet big on hydrogen, and the Japanese government doesn't want to leave their largest company out to dry. The nuclear phase-out after Fukushima has also made the clean electricity supply much tighter in Japan.
A decade ago, you could argue hydrogen might win out over electrification in some segments like trucking. Now it's really clear that battery electric cars are the dominant technology, but Toyota never moved past the Prius.
This video of someone using the hydrogen powered Mirai in California says enough about the technology's inconveniences.
I really wish I had questions, or thoughts but your response has already answered all of them.
This is the greatest and most cohesive comment I've ever read in my five (?) years on this site.
If I have any thoughts or ideas can I message you? I am deeply interested in this.
One of the best articles I've seen on the subject, and among the best Tildes posts of all time. I respect the interest, expertise, and time you've contributed on a very important topic.
I suppose I could do my own homework on this, but did you happen to see concrete proposals for Japan's hydrogen sourcing? Are they planning on "blue" hydrogen (steam reformation of hydrogen from LNG with capture of the resulting CO2), or "green" hydrogen (direct electrolysis of water with solar or other zero carbon power)?
Fantastic comment. Thanks for all the work you put into it. One of the most thorough comments I've read in years.
This is my major concern/wonder with moving hydrogen using existing LNG infrastructure. You mentioned ammonia as a transport carrier though which I hadn't heard about before. This published article is fascinating.
That should be much easier to move and transport. However I am now curious as to whether the technology exists to efficiently convert H2 generated by renewables into NH3? This could potentially be a fantastic way for all countries to build grid scale energy storage to offset the variability in renewables output.
You have all the answers! Thanks so much for sharing such great insight. I'm sure there are still challenges to solve but hydrogen could be the magic bullet we've been hoping for. Hydro storage, thermal storage, battery storage always seemed a bit pie in the sky for full grid scale storage. They'll certainly be part of the mix, but if hydrogen can make use of all this infrastructure we have lying around it could lead to rapid deployment.
This was my main worry, you lose a lot of the energy you just stored to compress and cool hydrogen. If this low pressure method using the new catalyst pans out we could be in a good spot.
I tried googling around and it looks like it's using ruthenium (and possibly lanthanum? Different sources for catalysts so tricky to tell which one specifically seems viable). AFAIK that's quite a rare rare-earth element. The next issue would be whether we have enough global supply to build and maintain enough synthesisers. Might be time to seriously start thinking about asteroid mining.
I would very much like to get you started on asteroid mining one day! Especially if it's as detailed as this fascinating hydrogen comment. Maybe next time there's big news in the space we can have a topic on it.
This is why I generally have a positive outlook on the future. The trick is creating enough economic incentive to solving the problem that you can throw these talented problem solvers at the challenge.
I guess we're quite lucky Japan's grid is so bonkers, as it's providing that incentive to solve this piece of the climate change puzzle! Much like how Germany's grid supply incentives helped get solar to where it is today. If only we could incentivise everything as fully.
I hadn't been keeping too abreast of developments in hydrogen fuel cell vehicles as I didn't know about some of the stuff you had shared and dismissed it as not being viable. That's a nice rabbit hole for me to go down now. Been looking up stuff about the polymer fuel cells which looks very interesting (though what I have initially read suggests they still use platinum to split the oxygen).
"The emperor protects"
Huge new deal style projects are easy for United governments or authoritarian regimes. Unfortunately I think it's going to be tricky for democracies to do the same scale projects with the 4 year election cycle. Setting up tax incentives, reducing subsidies on polluting industries, providing research budgets, and other measures to artificially create demand for these solutions is probably going to be the way. The war in Ukraine has certainly been a big wake up call for energy independence.
Give those researchers as much budget as they need and let's get something to market. UK universities are heavily incentivised to produce "impact" from their research so hopefully they can keep up the progress on that technology.
Excellent piece of writing! I enjoyed reading every bit of it! Thank you :-)
So here's the thing... I get to the end of that and think to myself "ok, sure, their position on hydrogen and electric vehicles totally makes sense to me". But why then don't they just come out and say that? Instead we get "studies" from Toyota which conclude that "well we can show why hybrids are actually better for the environment than battery electric", and other things to try to sell the environmental benefits of hydrogen while completely ignoring the actual source of it, etc etc.
I can come up with the perhaps cynical answers in my mind, but perhaps you've got one of your own which would be less so haha.
This was an absolutely incredible read! Thanks so much for the complete write up!
Since you seem to be quite knowledgeable in this field I wanted to ask, is the extensive public transportation system in anyway affecting these developments? I'd imagine that the urban Japanese family probably does not have the same auto dependence that we have here in the west, so is that one of the reasons that their auto industry is not keen to change too quickly? Especially since EVs (and most novel auto innovations) come with a massive increase in cost...
Fascinating! I absolutely adore reading about japans rail network but that map you sent takes the cake. Genuinely mind boggling how thorough their public transit is.
Also, I really liked the idea of these Kei cars. They’d actually suite my lifestyle quite well if available here.
Japan is betting on hydrogen over lithium ion batteries for electric cars. I'm curious to see how that plays out.
On the one hand, hydrogen is easier to store at scale. No country on the world has enough batteries to store an hour of energy production. That makes hydrogen appealing when paired with the inconsistency of solar or wind power.
On the other hand, hydrogen is terrifying. Electrolysis isn't very efficient. Battery technology has a pretty substantial head start.
I completely appreciate the logistical issues with batteries for energy storage. My main problem with this as justification for Japan's support for Hydrogen is that it doesn't solve the issue of energy storage either. Barely any of the hydrogen being used is produced through renewable processes, and the issues with lithium supply for battery production we still face with hydrogen production due to platinum supply issues. Most of the hydrogen Japan is using is still being produced from the fossil fuel industry.
I understand that we shouldn't let perfect be the enemy of good enough, but I'm yet to see how, long-term, hydrogen production improves on the challenges faced by battery storage.
Toyota has been heavy on this, they made a statement a while back that the rest of the industry isn't seeing EVs as the future, a pit stop at best, but hydrogen being easy to fill, and quick plus you can travel long distances, it's the most abundant thing in the universe and you can retrofit gas stations to carry it easier than you can setting up EV quick charge stations which require substations near to carry the loads...it makes hydrogen a no brainer.
Toyota bet big on hydrogen, and the Japanese government doesn't want to leave their largest company out to dry. The nuclear phase-out after Fukushima has also made the clean electricity supply much tighter in Japan.
A decade ago, you could argue hydrogen might win out over electrification in some segments like trucking. Now it's really clear that battery electric cars are the dominant technology, but Toyota never moved past the Prius.
This video of someone using the hydrogen powered Mirai in California says enough about the technology's inconveniences.
https://youtu.be/M0_RsqR37-E