After reading this article I really don't have a lot of hope for most democracies and markets to deal with the plastic problem. People don't seem capable of dealing with the inconvenience of...
After reading this article I really don't have a lot of hope for most democracies and markets to deal with the plastic problem. People don't seem capable of dealing with the inconvenience of losing single use plastic. The companies pass on these complaints and governments cave to the pressure.
Even simple things like grocery stores can't change to allow their employees to sit down. Getting them and companies to distribute loose goods, update aisles to store loose goods, and convince people to bring their own containers is barely impossible. It seems like anything in America that would require cultural change is a non-starter.
Plastics have, I imagine, greatly benefited some areas of society. For instance, they allow for cheap & effective single-use items in the medical field. I'm sure there are more examples of...
Plastics have, I imagine, greatly benefited some areas of society. For instance, they allow for cheap & effective single-use items in the medical field. I'm sure there are more examples of industries where they should continue to be available.
With that said, for-profit companies have done a great job at using plastics to extract every last penny from consumers - not only by selling them low-quality versions of goods that were previously produced with metal (ex. any sort of tool or toy with gears in it, like stand-up mixers or power tools) - but also by enabling the production of, for the lack of a better phrase, "shit."
It's everywhere. Walk through a grocery store and see all of the cheap toys hanging from the racks. Receive a new laptop from your employer and everything will come wrapped in plastic. I can only imagine - and it's probably outside of my imagination, even - how much plastic is used by businesses every day to save a dollar, a lot of it mostly unnecessary.
We've been conditioned to expect perfect goods that come tidily wrapped, probably to benefit the plastics industry. We've been taught to want to replace our things quicker, so people don't even get very upset when they break - they've probably already bought a new one!
One way or another, we've been conditioned to want this. Of course it's going to be an uphill battle - and therefore probably never happen - if we try to eliminate plastics and tell consumers that goods will cost more. Not only are people already struggling, but we've very recently seen that prices will go up just because, so how are we to trust that this time it's a necessary price increase (if it even is)? And how will we ever overcome our consumerist society to even tell people to buy less? That they don't need the water bottles, or the ziplock bags, or the thousands of other little trinkets that fill all of our homes. Sure, minimalism is probably healthier, but getting new junk makes us feel good.
Perhaps then the solution is to reduce single use items as much as possible, instead introducing durable, washable versions. Although especially in the medical field where it's important to be...
Perhaps then the solution is to reduce single use items as much as possible, instead introducing durable, washable versions. Although especially in the medical field where it's important to be very hygienic there are many things that are difficult or impossible to replace with many use items.
Yeah I think the medical field is one where it’s totally reasonable to have single use plastic. And if we reduced the rest of our single use plastics the amount from the medical field would be...
Yeah I think the medical field is one where it’s totally reasonable to have single use plastic. And if we reduced the rest of our single use plastics the amount from the medical field would be manageable. I expect there are areas where sanitising would be acceptable/feasible too, but it introduces an extra layer of risk
The problem is not that you need to sanitize stuff. The problem is you need to keep it absolutely sterile for the entire time after you have sanitized it until you use it. That's hard. So the way...
I expect there are areas where sanitising would be acceptable/feasible too, but it introduces an extra layer of risk
The problem is not that you need to sanitize stuff. The problem is you need to keep it absolutely sterile for the entire time after you have sanitized it until you use it. That's hard.
So the way this is done for tons of stuff in hospitals is... single use plastic covers. A steel scalpel is used in hundreds of operations. And after every single one, it is sterilized, welded into a single use vacuum-bag and put back on the shelf.
And really, there is no other way. And there does't need to be. The single use vacuum bags are all the same plastic, they can be recycled.
The thing with metal and glass is that it can cheaply be sterilized. Plastic is certeinly needed. But it'd be interesting to see where it could be reduced in the medical (and science) fields.
The thing with metal and glass is that it can cheaply be sterilized. Plastic is certeinly needed. But it'd be interesting to see where it could be reduced in the medical (and science) fields.
Sure, I just don’t think it’s the most important place to start. Single use plastics have an actual use in medicine; they don’t in many other places - we should start there
Sure, I just don’t think it’s the most important place to start. Single use plastics have an actual use in medicine; they don’t in many other places - we should start there
I think that there are certain changes that have been shown successful as long as there is a reasonable alternative. For example, many places now ban single use grocery bags. You either bring your...
I think that there are certain changes that have been shown successful as long as there is a reasonable alternative. For example, many places now ban single use grocery bags. You either bring your own or pay $0.05 for a paper one.
Something like selling bulk items and allowing people to being their own containers does have more logistical challenges. First, you have to acquire the containers. There are definitely sanitary issues at play, both with people's dirty containers and the dispensers themselves. Dealing with the tare weights of custom containers is a pain in the ass. Checkouts will take longer. That all represents challenges that the general public will be unwilling to deal with.
I think we have to start with simple things that have minimal end user impact but are still environmentally beneficial.
Could cardboard be used? This is the opposite of my area of expertise, but I imagine that if plastic had always been banned then an alternative would have already existed. In general, it's...
When the 2021 phase went into effect, women across the city were shocked to see tampons with plastic applicators disappear from shelves overnight, with few, if any, alternatives. Many accused lawmakers of ignoring the gender implications of their policies.
Could cardboard be used? This is the opposite of my area of expertise, but I imagine that if plastic had always been banned then an alternative would have already existed.
In general, it's obviously very important to think about the impact legislation can have. But at the same time, nothing is going to change if there is too much focus on thinking and avoiding outcomes. There needs to be a balance, and part of that balance needs to be a willingness to break things and force both companies and consumers to adapt.
What’s missing, says a butcher at one of the vast markets here, is the education of the public. “I don’t know how I can hand over a packet of meat without involving plastic,” he says.
I can't believe this quote made it into the article. Has no one involved in writing and editing this story ever visited a butcher? Butcher's paper has been a staple of the meat industry since before plastic was invented.
Cardboard applicators can be and are used, long before plastic applicators from what I remember. Some tampon brands don't even include applicators, and users apply them using a finger. But,...
Cardboard applicators can be and are used, long before plastic applicators from what I remember. Some tampon brands don't even include applicators, and users apply them using a finger.
But, different people have different comforts and preferences. While I always avoided plastic applicators for environmental reasons (instead opting for cardboard, no-applicator, and then menstrual cup), for a product as personal as a tampon I was hard-pressed to judge others' preferences.
I'm OK with the ban, at some point plastic over-use has to stop. That said, a softer-landing approach by the tampon industry may have helped with comfort / acceptance, and even trust in brand. Eg, companies might have included some sort of PSA notice in plastic applicator tampon boxes, and included free samples of alternatives that would be available post-ban. (maybe they did, I wouldn't know :)
Just to add to this (in case you haven't had your fill of tampon-related details), in my experience, tampons with plastic applicators are much easier and more comfortable to insert. I don't use...
Just to add to this (in case you haven't had your fill of tampon-related details), in my experience, tampons with plastic applicators are much easier and more comfortable to insert.
I don't use tampons a lot (similar to @lackofaname, I've switched to period pants for being more environmentally friendly) but when I do use them they generally have plastic applicators. This also seems to have become the default in the last 10 years or so. When I first got my period, you had to pay more for plastic, but now I'm not sure you can get Tampax that don't have plastic applicators, at least where I am. I bought some organic cardboard ones the other month and I was surprised by just how hard they were to use.
On another note, one of my most embarrassing memories is my very pro-recycling uncle sorting through the contents of the bathroom bin (which included my bloody tampons and pads which I'd carefully wrapped up with toilet paper) in the middle of the kitchen one Christmas when I was 14 or so in order to make sure nothing recyclable had been thrown away.
I guess the moral of that story is that how women deal with their periods is a personal thing and while it may contribute to plastic consumption, that contribution is minor in the grand scheme of things and shouldn't be picked apart as the first line of attack. And women themselves should always be involved in those discussions.
I'm always glad to learn more! And that makes sense, a brand isn't going to risk losing market share because their cardboard product is less comfortable to insert. Do you think that happened here...
I'm always glad to learn more! And that makes sense, a brand isn't going to risk losing market share because their cardboard product is less comfortable to insert.
I guess the moral of that story is that how women deal with their periods is a personal thing and while it may contribute to plastic consumption, that contribution is minor in the grand scheme of things and shouldn't be picked apart as the first line of attack. And women themselves should always be involved in those discussions.
Do you think that happened here though? To me the article read like it was an ancillary effect of a blanket ban on single use plastics, not a focused first line of attack.
I guess that specific wording is a bit over the top but I was talking generally rather than in reference to this particular article. In general though, I have received a bit too much moralising...
I guess that specific wording is a bit over the top but I was talking generally rather than in reference to this particular article.
In general though, I have received a bit too much moralising from enviromentally-minded men on the topic of period products when imo it should be a personal choice and not every solution works for everyone in terms of cost, comfort or practicality. And, as the article makes clear, there so much disposable plastic usage to address that honing in on these particular products does feel a little attack-y.
That's unfortunate. Yes, honing in specifically on period products would indeed be very strange. Unfortunately even some environmentalists seem to be sexist and shitty.
That's unfortunate. Yes, honing in specifically on period products would indeed be very strange. Unfortunately even some environmentalists seem to be sexist and shitty.
Why should that quote not be in the article, is not saying that is a fact but that it is the perception of the person being interviewed. Should articles not include people's opinions only because...
I can't believe this quote made it into the article. Has no one involved in writing and editing this story ever visited a butcher?
Why should that quote not be in the article, is not saying that is a fact but that it is the perception of the person being interviewed. Should articles not include people's opinions only because they are wrong? Should the reporter fack-checked the person right there in the interview? Or tell the butcher being interviewed "What the hell are you talking about, have you ever visited a butcher?"?
Well, I'm Mexican and I think the quote makes a good point about how prolific the use of plastic is and how alien is the concept of using paper. I'm in my mid-thirties and I think I've only seen...
Well, I'm Mexican and I think the quote makes a good point about how prolific the use of plastic is and how alien is the concept of using paper. I'm in my mid-thirties and I think I've only seen it used once, and I remember thinking how weird it was, but I'm sure I've seen it used plenty of time with dry meat.
What's worse, I saw how taquerías and other fast food stands stopped using paper to keep their plates somewhat clean and started using full plastic bags to cover them in order to not wash them (like this). The use of single used plastic has become really ubiquitous in some places here, probably because is really cheap, and is really hard to enforce any kind of law because a lot of those businesses are not even registered with the government.
The good news is that Mexicans are already used to reusing some materials when buying food, like fabric to wrap tortillas, or Tupperware when buying prepared food but there's still a long long way to go. As the article said, the sale of single-use plastics was banned before the pandemic, but then everything reappeared again.
I think the matter of fact is, it's a dilemma. So long as we need ANYTHING to be stored, we lose. Remember, the big reason plastic was pushed was because prior to it, we were using paper for...
I think the matter of fact is, it's a dilemma. So long as we need ANYTHING to be stored, we lose.
Remember, the big reason plastic was pushed was because prior to it, we were using paper for EVERYTHING. Growing up in the late 90's/early 2000's, everyone was freaking out about the paper use because it meant cutting down trees. Plastic was introduced as "Use this to save the trees"
So plastic hurts the environment. Using paper hurts the environment. That leaves metal, but even metal has plenty of issues- ignoring monetary cost, it's also heavy to transport.
Here's a related article that was recently posted by CSM, they must have a theme going. https://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/From-the-Editors/2023/0710/We-tried-the-no-plastic-challenge
After reading this article I really don't have a lot of hope for most democracies and markets to deal with the plastic problem. People don't seem capable of dealing with the inconvenience of losing single use plastic. The companies pass on these complaints and governments cave to the pressure.
Even simple things like grocery stores can't change to allow their employees to sit down. Getting them and companies to distribute loose goods, update aisles to store loose goods, and convince people to bring their own containers is barely impossible. It seems like anything in America that would require cultural change is a non-starter.
Plastics have, I imagine, greatly benefited some areas of society. For instance, they allow for cheap & effective single-use items in the medical field. I'm sure there are more examples of industries where they should continue to be available.
With that said, for-profit companies have done a great job at using plastics to extract every last penny from consumers - not only by selling them low-quality versions of goods that were previously produced with metal (ex. any sort of tool or toy with gears in it, like stand-up mixers or power tools) - but also by enabling the production of, for the lack of a better phrase, "shit."
It's everywhere. Walk through a grocery store and see all of the cheap toys hanging from the racks. Receive a new laptop from your employer and everything will come wrapped in plastic. I can only imagine - and it's probably outside of my imagination, even - how much plastic is used by businesses every day to save a dollar, a lot of it mostly unnecessary.
We've been conditioned to expect perfect goods that come tidily wrapped, probably to benefit the plastics industry. We've been taught to want to replace our things quicker, so people don't even get very upset when they break - they've probably already bought a new one!
One way or another, we've been conditioned to want this. Of course it's going to be an uphill battle - and therefore probably never happen - if we try to eliminate plastics and tell consumers that goods will cost more. Not only are people already struggling, but we've very recently seen that prices will go up just because, so how are we to trust that this time it's a necessary price increase (if it even is)? And how will we ever overcome our consumerist society to even tell people to buy less? That they don't need the water bottles, or the ziplock bags, or the thousands of other little trinkets that fill all of our homes. Sure, minimalism is probably healthier, but getting new junk makes us feel good.
Cheap is relative. Imagine the bills if everything was single use metal?!
Perhaps then the solution is to reduce single use items as much as possible, instead introducing durable, washable versions. Although especially in the medical field where it's important to be very hygienic there are many things that are difficult or impossible to replace with many use items.
Yeah I think the medical field is one where it’s totally reasonable to have single use plastic. And if we reduced the rest of our single use plastics the amount from the medical field would be manageable. I expect there are areas where sanitising would be acceptable/feasible too, but it introduces an extra layer of risk
The problem is not that you need to sanitize stuff. The problem is you need to keep it absolutely sterile for the entire time after you have sanitized it until you use it. That's hard.
So the way this is done for tons of stuff in hospitals is... single use plastic covers. A steel scalpel is used in hundreds of operations. And after every single one, it is sterilized, welded into a single use vacuum-bag and put back on the shelf.
And really, there is no other way. And there does't need to be. The single use vacuum bags are all the same plastic, they can be recycled.
The thing with metal and glass is that it can cheaply be sterilized. Plastic is certeinly needed. But it'd be interesting to see where it could be reduced in the medical (and science) fields.
Sure, I just don’t think it’s the most important place to start. Single use plastics have an actual use in medicine; they don’t in many other places - we should start there
I think that there are certain changes that have been shown successful as long as there is a reasonable alternative. For example, many places now ban single use grocery bags. You either bring your own or pay $0.05 for a paper one.
Something like selling bulk items and allowing people to being their own containers does have more logistical challenges. First, you have to acquire the containers. There are definitely sanitary issues at play, both with people's dirty containers and the dispensers themselves. Dealing with the tare weights of custom containers is a pain in the ass. Checkouts will take longer. That all represents challenges that the general public will be unwilling to deal with.
I think we have to start with simple things that have minimal end user impact but are still environmentally beneficial.
Could cardboard be used? This is the opposite of my area of expertise, but I imagine that if plastic had always been banned then an alternative would have already existed.
In general, it's obviously very important to think about the impact legislation can have. But at the same time, nothing is going to change if there is too much focus on thinking and avoiding outcomes. There needs to be a balance, and part of that balance needs to be a willingness to break things and force both companies and consumers to adapt.
I can't believe this quote made it into the article. Has no one involved in writing and editing this story ever visited a butcher? Butcher's paper has been a staple of the meat industry since before plastic was invented.
Cardboard applicators can be and are used, long before plastic applicators from what I remember. Some tampon brands don't even include applicators, and users apply them using a finger.
But, different people have different comforts and preferences. While I always avoided plastic applicators for environmental reasons (instead opting for cardboard, no-applicator, and then menstrual cup), for a product as personal as a tampon I was hard-pressed to judge others' preferences.
I'm OK with the ban, at some point plastic over-use has to stop. That said, a softer-landing approach by the tampon industry may have helped with comfort / acceptance, and even trust in brand. Eg, companies might have included some sort of PSA notice in plastic applicator tampon boxes, and included free samples of alternatives that would be available post-ban. (maybe they did, I wouldn't know :)
That makes a lot of sense. Thank you!
Just to add to this (in case you haven't had your fill of tampon-related details), in my experience, tampons with plastic applicators are much easier and more comfortable to insert.
I don't use tampons a lot (similar to @lackofaname, I've switched to period pants for being more environmentally friendly) but when I do use them they generally have plastic applicators. This also seems to have become the default in the last 10 years or so. When I first got my period, you had to pay more for plastic, but now I'm not sure you can get Tampax that don't have plastic applicators, at least where I am. I bought some organic cardboard ones the other month and I was surprised by just how hard they were to use.
On another note, one of my most embarrassing memories is my very pro-recycling uncle sorting through the contents of the bathroom bin (which included my bloody tampons and pads which I'd carefully wrapped up with toilet paper) in the middle of the kitchen one Christmas when I was 14 or so in order to make sure nothing recyclable had been thrown away.
I guess the moral of that story is that how women deal with their periods is a personal thing and while it may contribute to plastic consumption, that contribution is minor in the grand scheme of things and shouldn't be picked apart as the first line of attack. And women themselves should always be involved in those discussions.
I'm always glad to learn more! And that makes sense, a brand isn't going to risk losing market share because their cardboard product is less comfortable to insert.
Do you think that happened here though? To me the article read like it was an ancillary effect of a blanket ban on single use plastics, not a focused first line of attack.
I guess that specific wording is a bit over the top but I was talking generally rather than in reference to this particular article.
In general though, I have received a bit too much moralising from enviromentally-minded men on the topic of period products when imo it should be a personal choice and not every solution works for everyone in terms of cost, comfort or practicality. And, as the article makes clear, there so much disposable plastic usage to address that honing in on these particular products does feel a little attack-y.
That's unfortunate. Yes, honing in specifically on period products would indeed be very strange. Unfortunately even some environmentalists seem to be sexist and shitty.
Why should that quote not be in the article, is not saying that is a fact but that it is the perception of the person being interviewed. Should articles not include people's opinions only because they are wrong? Should the reporter fack-checked the person right there in the interview? Or tell the butcher being interviewed "What the hell are you talking about, have you ever visited a butcher?"?
You ignore the option of simply not using the quote in the article. It does nothing to improve it
Well, I'm Mexican and I think the quote makes a good point about how prolific the use of plastic is and how alien is the concept of using paper. I'm in my mid-thirties and I think I've only seen it used once, and I remember thinking how weird it was, but I'm sure I've seen it used plenty of time with dry meat.
What's worse, I saw how taquerías and other fast food stands stopped using paper to keep their plates somewhat clean and started using full plastic bags to cover them in order to not wash them (like this). The use of single used plastic has become really ubiquitous in some places here, probably because is really cheap, and is really hard to enforce any kind of law because a lot of those businesses are not even registered with the government.
The good news is that Mexicans are already used to reusing some materials when buying food, like fabric to wrap tortillas, or Tupperware when buying prepared food but there's still a long long way to go. As the article said, the sale of single-use plastics was banned before the pandemic, but then everything reappeared again.
I think the matter of fact is, it's a dilemma. So long as we need ANYTHING to be stored, we lose.
Remember, the big reason plastic was pushed was because prior to it, we were using paper for EVERYTHING. Growing up in the late 90's/early 2000's, everyone was freaking out about the paper use because it meant cutting down trees. Plastic was introduced as "Use this to save the trees"
So plastic hurts the environment. Using paper hurts the environment. That leaves metal, but even metal has plenty of issues- ignoring monetary cost, it's also heavy to transport.
I see no way to win this issue, unfortunately.
The commonality between all these things is people. People hurt the environment.
Here's a related article that was recently posted by CSM, they must have a theme going. https://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/From-the-Editors/2023/0710/We-tried-the-no-plastic-challenge