The next of the animated shorts leading up to the Battle for Azeroth (World of Warcraft) launch is out. I enjoy this animation style immensely. Backstory: Sylvanas is the queen of the undead and...
The next of the animated shorts leading up to the Battle for Azeroth (World of Warcraft) launch is out. I enjoy this animation style immensely.
Backstory: Sylvanas is the queen of the undead and the leader of the Horde, the ostensible bad guys. In life, she was one of the Elves, who live in that big tree that she is attacking.
Mm not quite. She was a high elf who lived and died defending her home of Quel'thalas. The high elves are tangentially related to the night elves that migrated to that big tree, but I don't think...
Mm not quite. She was a high elf who lived and died defending her home of Quel'thalas. The high elves are tangentially related to the night elves that migrated to that big tree, but I don't think she even knew of its existence in life.
Edit: Omg I just realized it's /u/aphoenix and you probably already knew all this. Hi!!
I was giving exceptionally broad strokes to sum up for people who have no familiarity at all. I know it's kind of wrong, but it set the scene enough to get into it. And yeah, it's me! How are you...
I was giving exceptionally broad strokes to sum up for people who have no familiarity at all. I know it's kind of wrong, but it set the scene enough to get into it.
While the video was well done, the story aspect of it is abysmal. Pretty sad to see how bad the horde has been treated by the writers the past expansions
While the video was well done, the story aspect of it is abysmal. Pretty sad to see how bad the horde has been treated by the writers the past expansions
So a lot of people are saying this, but I have to say I don't really get it. The horde has always been "the bad guys". There's like one good orc (Thrall) who tries to "humanize" the horde, but...
So a lot of people are saying this, but I have to say I don't really get it. The horde has always been "the bad guys". There's like one good orc (Thrall) who tries to "humanize" the horde, but generally speaking, the Horde is really into killing all the non-horde, with the possible exception of the Tauren.
Sylvanas is a villain. She's been a villain for years, and I think she'll continue to be a villain for years. If you rolled horde, I think you're probably at least somewhat okay with being the nominal villains, so I'm not sure why it's surprising to continue being the villain.
Warcraft has gone through several cycles of re-inventing it's own story. At the base The Horde was only orcs, and they were into killing stuff because they were an ersatz of Warhammer's...
Warcraft has gone through several cycles of re-inventing it's own story. At the base The Horde was only orcs, and they were into killing stuff because they were an ersatz of Warhammer's greenskins, who are characterized by their complete devotion to looting and slaughtering. Then in Warcraft 2 The Horde expanded to Trolls and Goblins and introduced the idea of the Orcs having a homeworld and having been brought under the influence of Demons. Then in Lord of the Clans and later Warcraft 3 Blizzard starting re-writing the Orcs as having been the victims of a demonic plot to use them as cannon fodder, and how they're actually really spiritualistic and honorable people, deep down.
And I want to insist on that: aside from Orcs unaffiliated with The Horde, Blizzard treated The Horde pretty much like misunderstood people with unfortunate pasts (Orcs and the Darkspear trolls) who found common allies with other spiritually inclined people (The Tauren, who are just native americans but cows) and an alliance of convenience with the Forsaken Undead. This whole notion of re-re-branding The Horde as "really the bad guys after all" feels like it was Blizzard's clunky attempt at pushing the reset because otherwise there wouldn't be a central faction conflict.
I've always thought of it as "we're the bad guys, sure, but we have reasons to be bad". Having a reason for wanton murder doesn't make you a good guy, it just fleshes out your backstory. That...
I've always thought of it as "we're the bad guys, sure, but we have reasons to be bad". Having a reason for wanton murder doesn't make you a good guy, it just fleshes out your backstory.
That said, I think that Blizzard has never told a particularly cohesive or good story; it's all just a backdrop for a video game, and it's not literary gold or anything. It's pulp; it's accessible, generally understandable, and not particularly deep, and it's mostly there to beef up gameplay elements. For that reason, I think that your attributing way more depth to the storytelling than is actually there.
I think that there has to be some storytelling beyond "horde bad, alliance good" which is what some of the "grey" parts of the lore are about, but generally we have good guys and bad guys, who occasionally have an uneasy pact to fight worse guys.
Edit: I think I was mostly responding to @ThirdSquid here but I think it's relevant to both.
I think the thing about Blizzard's narratives that was always interesting is that they somehow managed to strike a balance between being pulp and having a few elements you could actually root for,...
I think the thing about Blizzard's narratives that was always interesting is that they somehow managed to strike a balance between being pulp and having a few elements you could actually root for, and it never overdid it our outstayed it's welcome. Warcraft III managed to be a pulpy entertaining but semi-serious exploration of what had, up until then, just been an almost parody of Warhammer. Now it's far more sweeping vistas, close-ups of crying people, and one-liners about how terrible or heroic something is, and it all feels... I don't know, unearned I guess would be the best way to describe it?
IMHO It's no longer "pulp, yet somehow effective" but has slipped into the realm of "pulp that tries really hard to convince you it's actually effective", not just Warcraft but also Overwatch and Starcraft.
II just think that they never (or maybe "rarely") really had much substance backing up their pulp. What they do have is incredible animators and storytellers, but the story itself is a mishmash of...
II just think that they never (or maybe "rarely") really had much substance backing up their pulp. What they do have is incredible animators and storytellers, but the story itself is a mishmash of things that they've borrowed from other places; it's unoriginal, straight forward, and not particularly well thought out. That certainly doesn't preclude us from enjoying the story if it's told well, though!
I loved the Jaina short, and I love this short too, despite the fact that the underlying stuff is a bit nonsense because Blizzard shorts and cinematics are almost always glorious moments. Those moments don't all fit in wonderfully into the broader tapestry that is the Blizzard Universe, because it's such a hodge-podge of other stories that it's hard to add things in a way that doesn't conflict with something else.
That's part of the glory of the Warcraft universe to me; it's unpredictable and very silly.
The problem is that the horde is so split in their attitudes and we don't really see them address it in any way. I don't think Baine and the tauren would let burning Teldrassil fly, i don't think...
The problem is that the horde is so split in their attitudes and we don't really see them address it in any way. I don't think Baine and the tauren would let burning Teldrassil fly, i don't think the other races other than the undead would.
And the worst part is that Sylvanas' plan WAS to occupy the tree until the General didn't answer the way Sylvanas' wanted so she acted like a child just to prove a point.
Blizzard has said that they don't want it to be a black and white story, but they are absolutely making it that. The theories about Azshara or someone else doing it, while far fetched, was way better than the story we actually got.
Blizzard has just flip flopped so hard with Sylvanas' attitude over the years it's hard to keep interest in her, especially since her story is looking more and more like kerrigan from starcraft
The problem with Sylvanas is that most of her story was essentially written around two axes: that she really hates Arthas for turning her into a banshee that she and her undead companions were...
The problem with Sylvanas is that most of her story was essentially written around two axes:
that she really hates Arthas for turning her into a banshee
that she and her undead companions were trying to find a place for themselves
With the death of Arthas both of those things vanished. She had her vengeance and the scourge, the largest threat against the Forsaken in Lordearon, were more or less neutered. So her Story had to be rewritten to focus on her consolidating the newfound power of the Forsaken. The invasion of Gilneas made some degree of sense in that context, but her wanton warmongering and promotion as chief of the Horde make zero sense other then as a plot devices. It seems like Blizzard is trying to make it into some kind of "victim becomes the aggressor" story and giving her the reigns of the Horde allows them to keep the two-faction conflict running but they never fully commit to the idea of Sylvanas as a villain. Instead they keep harking back a million times to her tragic past and how much sad feelings she has experienced as a way of hand waving all of her transgressions away.
So the difference between alliance and horde is not that one faction is evil and one is good. The Alliance is about civilization and order and organization whereas the horde is about savagery,...
So the difference between alliance and horde is not that one faction is evil and one is good. The Alliance is about civilization and order and organization whereas the horde is about savagery, tradition, and outcasts.
The alliance isn't the good guys, they're the organized political kingdom that all works together for a common purpose. They have laws, order, and a common understanding between each other to all work together. Often they're linked by their religion, as most of the alliance worships the holy light, which aligns them as more good-ish, but plenty of alliance people have used the light for their own purposes, like real life religion.
The horde are the savages, the outcasts of the world. Each race has their own distinct culture and traditions and every race has their own wants and needs. The only thing that unites the horde with itself is that the world is against them otherwise. Every race in the horde is an outcast somehow, and by banding all the outcasts together, the horde has become strong. The horde often has lots of internal conflicts coming from its varied cultures, like how the undead are a mostly evil race while the tauren are mostly good. Their views are opposed, but they know they can't survive without the others.
So in general, the alliance are Rome, the organized kingdom that shares its culture among its people and tends to have its enemies be more political, whereas the horde is Gaul, the savage divided people who are all rallied together to survive and tends to have lots of internal issues and clashes.
Both factions are supposed to do both good and bad things and be mostly in the middle. Maybe the alliance leans slightly towards good and the horde leans slightly towards evil, but in general they're both neutral.
The thing that's disappointing is that they've kind of thrown this out with sylvanas and made her basically straight up evil and the horde just does what she says which also then makes the alliance put in the place of straight up good guys. It's very lame for factions that both used to be more neutral.
The next of the animated shorts leading up to the Battle for Azeroth (World of Warcraft) launch is out. I enjoy this animation style immensely.
Backstory: Sylvanas is the queen of the undead and the leader of the Horde, the ostensible bad guys. In life, she was one of the Elves, who live in that big tree that she is attacking.
Mm not quite. She was a high elf who lived and died defending her home of Quel'thalas. The high elves are tangentially related to the night elves that migrated to that big tree, but I don't think she even knew of its existence in life.
Edit: Omg I just realized it's /u/aphoenix and you probably already knew all this. Hi!!
I was giving exceptionally broad strokes to sum up for people who have no familiarity at all. I know it's kind of wrong, but it set the scene enough to get into it.
And yeah, it's me! How are you enjoying ~?
While the video was well done, the story aspect of it is abysmal. Pretty sad to see how bad the horde has been treated by the writers the past expansions
So a lot of people are saying this, but I have to say I don't really get it. The horde has always been "the bad guys". There's like one good orc (Thrall) who tries to "humanize" the horde, but generally speaking, the Horde is really into killing all the non-horde, with the possible exception of the Tauren.
Sylvanas is a villain. She's been a villain for years, and I think she'll continue to be a villain for years. If you rolled horde, I think you're probably at least somewhat okay with being the nominal villains, so I'm not sure why it's surprising to continue being the villain.
I guess... I just don't get it.
Warcraft has gone through several cycles of re-inventing it's own story. At the base The Horde was only orcs, and they were into killing stuff because they were an ersatz of Warhammer's greenskins, who are characterized by their complete devotion to looting and slaughtering. Then in Warcraft 2 The Horde expanded to Trolls and Goblins and introduced the idea of the Orcs having a homeworld and having been brought under the influence of Demons. Then in Lord of the Clans and later Warcraft 3 Blizzard starting re-writing the Orcs as having been the victims of a demonic plot to use them as cannon fodder, and how they're actually really spiritualistic and honorable people, deep down.
And I want to insist on that: aside from Orcs unaffiliated with The Horde, Blizzard treated The Horde pretty much like misunderstood people with unfortunate pasts (Orcs and the Darkspear trolls) who found common allies with other spiritually inclined people (The Tauren, who are just native americans but cows) and an alliance of convenience with the Forsaken Undead. This whole notion of re-re-branding The Horde as "really the bad guys after all" feels like it was Blizzard's clunky attempt at pushing the reset because otherwise there wouldn't be a central faction conflict.
I've always thought of it as "we're the bad guys, sure, but we have reasons to be bad". Having a reason for wanton murder doesn't make you a good guy, it just fleshes out your backstory.
That said, I think that Blizzard has never told a particularly cohesive or good story; it's all just a backdrop for a video game, and it's not literary gold or anything. It's pulp; it's accessible, generally understandable, and not particularly deep, and it's mostly there to beef up gameplay elements. For that reason, I think that your attributing way more depth to the storytelling than is actually there.
I think that there has to be some storytelling beyond "horde bad, alliance good" which is what some of the "grey" parts of the lore are about, but generally we have good guys and bad guys, who occasionally have an uneasy pact to fight worse guys.
Edit: I think I was mostly responding to @ThirdSquid here but I think it's relevant to both.
I think the thing about Blizzard's narratives that was always interesting is that they somehow managed to strike a balance between being pulp and having a few elements you could actually root for, and it never overdid it our outstayed it's welcome. Warcraft III managed to be a pulpy entertaining but semi-serious exploration of what had, up until then, just been an almost parody of Warhammer. Now it's far more sweeping vistas, close-ups of crying people, and one-liners about how terrible or heroic something is, and it all feels... I don't know, unearned I guess would be the best way to describe it?
IMHO It's no longer "pulp, yet somehow effective" but has slipped into the realm of "pulp that tries really hard to convince you it's actually effective", not just Warcraft but also Overwatch and Starcraft.
II just think that they never (or maybe "rarely") really had much substance backing up their pulp. What they do have is incredible animators and storytellers, but the story itself is a mishmash of things that they've borrowed from other places; it's unoriginal, straight forward, and not particularly well thought out. That certainly doesn't preclude us from enjoying the story if it's told well, though!
I loved the Jaina short, and I love this short too, despite the fact that the underlying stuff is a bit nonsense because Blizzard shorts and cinematics are almost always glorious moments. Those moments don't all fit in wonderfully into the broader tapestry that is the Blizzard Universe, because it's such a hodge-podge of other stories that it's hard to add things in a way that doesn't conflict with something else.
That's part of the glory of the Warcraft universe to me; it's unpredictable and very silly.
The problem is that the horde is so split in their attitudes and we don't really see them address it in any way. I don't think Baine and the tauren would let burning Teldrassil fly, i don't think the other races other than the undead would.
And the worst part is that Sylvanas' plan WAS to occupy the tree until the General didn't answer the way Sylvanas' wanted so she acted like a child just to prove a point.
Blizzard has said that they don't want it to be a black and white story, but they are absolutely making it that. The theories about Azshara or someone else doing it, while far fetched, was way better than the story we actually got.
Blizzard has just flip flopped so hard with Sylvanas' attitude over the years it's hard to keep interest in her, especially since her story is looking more and more like kerrigan from starcraft
The problem with Sylvanas is that most of her story was essentially written around two axes:
With the death of Arthas both of those things vanished. She had her vengeance and the scourge, the largest threat against the Forsaken in Lordearon, were more or less neutered. So her Story had to be rewritten to focus on her consolidating the newfound power of the Forsaken. The invasion of Gilneas made some degree of sense in that context, but her wanton warmongering and promotion as chief of the Horde make zero sense other then as a plot devices. It seems like Blizzard is trying to make it into some kind of "victim becomes the aggressor" story and giving her the reigns of the Horde allows them to keep the two-faction conflict running but they never fully commit to the idea of Sylvanas as a villain. Instead they keep harking back a million times to her tragic past and how much sad feelings she has experienced as a way of hand waving all of her transgressions away.
So the difference between alliance and horde is not that one faction is evil and one is good. The Alliance is about civilization and order and organization whereas the horde is about savagery, tradition, and outcasts.
The alliance isn't the good guys, they're the organized political kingdom that all works together for a common purpose. They have laws, order, and a common understanding between each other to all work together. Often they're linked by their religion, as most of the alliance worships the holy light, which aligns them as more good-ish, but plenty of alliance people have used the light for their own purposes, like real life religion.
The horde are the savages, the outcasts of the world. Each race has their own distinct culture and traditions and every race has their own wants and needs. The only thing that unites the horde with itself is that the world is against them otherwise. Every race in the horde is an outcast somehow, and by banding all the outcasts together, the horde has become strong. The horde often has lots of internal conflicts coming from its varied cultures, like how the undead are a mostly evil race while the tauren are mostly good. Their views are opposed, but they know they can't survive without the others.
So in general, the alliance are Rome, the organized kingdom that shares its culture among its people and tends to have its enemies be more political, whereas the horde is Gaul, the savage divided people who are all rallied together to survive and tends to have lots of internal issues and clashes.
Both factions are supposed to do both good and bad things and be mostly in the middle. Maybe the alliance leans slightly towards good and the horde leans slightly towards evil, but in general they're both neutral.
The thing that's disappointing is that they've kind of thrown this out with sylvanas and made her basically straight up evil and the horde just does what she says which also then makes the alliance put in the place of straight up good guys. It's very lame for factions that both used to be more neutral.