22
votes
Pope revises catechism to say death penalty is 'inadmissible'
Current news:
Catholic News Service: Pope revises catechism to say death penalty is 'inadmissible'
British Broadcasting Corporation: Pope Francis declares death penalty inadmissible in all cases
Australian Broadcasting Corporation: Pope Francis changes teachings to oppose death penalty in all cases
New York Times: Pope Declares Death Penalty Inadmissible in All Cases
The lead-up:
CNN (3 years ago): Death penalty showdown: The Pope vs. the Supreme Court
America: The Jesuit Review of Faith & Culture
(1 year ago): Pope Francis: The death penalty is contrary to the Gospel
And... a contrary opinion from The Catholic World Report one year ago: Why the Church Cannot Reverse Past Teaching on Capital Punishment
Pope Francis really getting out there. This is an actual (albeit minor) change in the Catholic dogma. Frankie's out there shaking shit up.
I don't imagine the US Catholic community is gonna be thrilled with this one, but guess what he's the pope so they can just sit on it.
Personally, I'm conflicted when it comes to capital punishment, both in the concept and the way it actually ends up going. But I'm glad to see Francis make some reforms. I'd like to see him make more.
They could break away from the Roman Catholic Church. It has been done before.
How? Murder is murder is murder. Whether I pull the trigger as a private citizen or as a government executioner, I'm still killing someone.
They won't though. Not over this. People will just grumble, and the more conservative ones will leave the church. The kind of people who have been bothered by what Pope Francis has been doing have already had enough to complain about recently anyway. They'll just go find a traditionalist Catholic group to join where they'll talk about how Vatican II was the work of the devil or whatever.
Do you want to get into the morality of capital punishment and state-sponsored killing? Because I'm on board, I just want to make sure you're committed to this discussion before I start putting a ton of myself into it.
And go where? The Catholic Church is already one of the most conservative Christian denominations around. They'll end up having to create The True Catholic Church™.
Yes, but not right now. It's midnight here, and past my bedtime.
That is already an extant thing. Like I said, "Traditionalist" Catholic churches are a thing. They're a splinter sect, not a branch of the capital-C Church.
Send me a message when you want to bring up capital punishment again. Hell, I think it'd even make a great thread of its own.
One of my friends went to one of these: latin masses, everything after the second council of the Vatican is anti-pope, anti-catholic, etc. He was ordained there eventually, I think :-(
I've never been, but growing up with a childhood steeped in Catholicism I've heard of them.
If you feel like having that thread, please message me! I've never heard an argument for capital punishment that I've found persuasive, but I'm interested.
Based on what criteria? Have you seen/heard about the Catholic Workers? The works done by Jesuits? The Little Sisters of the Poor that essentially give free health care/food/shelter to the elderly? Liberation Theology?
I'm a staunch socialist & athiest. But I have a mad respect for certain Catholics that are more "liberal" than many of the mainstream democrats. Many are even pro-choice. That said, "Catholicism" in the US is a widely defined term and many Catholics are in-name-only or are just straight up conservative christian cronies.
Please note: I did not write "the most conservative Christian denomination", I wrote "one of the most conservative Christian denominations". I fully acknowledge that there are more conservative Christian denominations than Catholicism but, in the context of there being many thousands of Christian denominations and many of those denominations being Protestant denominations of one kind or another, this puts Catholicism towards the conservative end of the spectrum of Christianity.
Good call, I took it as an absolute statement, my bad.
I still believe that it's somewhat of a spectrum that's hard to quantify. While there are many who fit the mold of extreme conservative Christians who are catholic, there are also others who are more akin to the modern day democratic-socialists politically.
That's what I figured. :)
I'm talking about the official doctrine of each denomination (such as Catholicism), rather than individual personal interpretations of Christianity. I'm also not using "conservative" to describe political views, but to describe how closely a denomination tries to conserve the original meaning of the Bible, instead of changing with the times. For example, even though an individual Catholic might use birth control, that doesn't change the Catholic Church's official position that birth control is wrong. While the individual might be a reformative Christian, the Church they belong to is not.
I've noticed that many Catholics seem to have this double-think in place: they consider themselves Catholics even while they act against the Catholic Church's teachings.
Fair point, and I tend to agree, but I also just want to point out that there are a lot of internal theological debates about things things like supporting single-payer healthcare through a theological lens, or being pro-choice with justifications from the bible, allowing women to be decons, etc. that kind of push at what is considered the dominate, conservative Catholic dogma. Thus, that can cause a lot of confusion in its practitioners.
Life in prison keeps a murderer away from everyone else, costs significantly less than the court proceedings to try them for capital punishment, and is more punishing than capital punishment (would you rather die, or be kept alive as a prisoner for the rest of your life?). Add this to the very real possibility of a trial finding the wrong verdict, and you have a compelling argument against capital punishment.
After all, we still allow witness testimony, even though it's been proven to be pointless. We still have many corrupt cops who plant evidence, misrepresent facts, rely on imperfect memory, or simply have it out for certain genders, races, or other human features. We still put people on the stand with close to no evidence. We still do a trial by jury (not professional jurors) , which by definition cannot be representative of your peers for many minorities. We still have judges that are often politically biased or at least motivated. All of this is just scratching the surface of what's wrong with our system and you want to put people through this broken, imperfect system and allow it to decide whether people should live or die?
I'm not the person you're replying to, but I definitely read the "Murder is murder is murder" statement as one that says state-sponsored killings are still murder -- so, I don't think they're in support of capital punishment.
hmm maybe
Hmm... definitely.
I'm not quite sure how you got me being in favour of the government murdering people from what I wrote, but that's not the correct interpretation of my comment.
So would I. I even have a couple of suggestions:
That would take an ecumenical council to do. Which I think a lot of Catholics are hoping for.
I am a huge fan of this.