22 votes

Pope revises catechism to say death penalty is 'inadmissible'

Current news:

Catholic News Service: Pope revises catechism to say death penalty is 'inadmissible'

British Broadcasting Corporation: Pope Francis declares death penalty inadmissible in all cases

Australian Broadcasting Corporation: Pope Francis changes teachings to oppose death penalty in all cases

New York Times: Pope Declares Death Penalty Inadmissible in All Cases


The lead-up:

CNN (3 years ago): Death penalty showdown: The Pope vs. the Supreme Court

America: The Jesuit Review of Faith & Culture
(1 year ago): Pope Francis: The death penalty is contrary to the Gospel


And... a contrary opinion from The Catholic World Report one year ago: Why the Church Cannot Reverse Past Teaching on Capital Punishment

20 comments

  1. [19]
    Kijafa
    (edited )
    Link
    Pope Francis really getting out there. This is an actual (albeit minor) change in the Catholic dogma. Frankie's out there shaking shit up. I don't imagine the US Catholic community is gonna be...

    Pope Francis really getting out there. This is an actual (albeit minor) change in the Catholic dogma. Frankie's out there shaking shit up.

    I don't imagine the US Catholic community is gonna be thrilled with this one, but guess what he's the pope so they can just sit on it.

    Personally, I'm conflicted when it comes to capital punishment, both in the concept and the way it actually ends up going. But I'm glad to see Francis make some reforms. I'd like to see him make more.

    10 votes
    1. [16]
      Algernon_Asimov
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      They could break away from the Roman Catholic Church. It has been done before. How? Murder is murder is murder. Whether I pull the trigger as a private citizen or as a government executioner, I'm...

      guess what he's the pope so they can just sit on it.

      They could break away from the Roman Catholic Church. It has been done before.

      I'm conflicted when it comes to capital punishment,

      How? Murder is murder is murder. Whether I pull the trigger as a private citizen or as a government executioner, I'm still killing someone.

      9 votes
      1. [11]
        Kijafa
        Link Parent
        They won't though. Not over this. People will just grumble, and the more conservative ones will leave the church. The kind of people who have been bothered by what Pope Francis has been doing have...

        They could break away from the Roman Catholic Church. It has been done before.

        They won't though. Not over this. People will just grumble, and the more conservative ones will leave the church. The kind of people who have been bothered by what Pope Francis has been doing have already had enough to complain about recently anyway. They'll just go find a traditionalist Catholic group to join where they'll talk about how Vatican II was the work of the devil or whatever.

        Do you want to get into the morality of capital punishment and state-sponsored killing? Because I'm on board, I just want to make sure you're committed to this discussion before I start putting a ton of myself into it.

        7 votes
        1. [10]
          Algernon_Asimov
          Link Parent
          And go where? The Catholic Church is already one of the most conservative Christian denominations around. They'll end up having to create The True Catholic Church™. Yes, but not right now. It's...

          the more conservative ones will leave the church.

          And go where? The Catholic Church is already one of the most conservative Christian denominations around. They'll end up having to create The True Catholic Church™.

          Do you want to get into the morality of capital punishment and state-sponsored killing?

          Yes, but not right now. It's midnight here, and past my bedtime.

          3 votes
          1. [4]
            Kijafa
            Link Parent
            That is already an extant thing. Like I said, "Traditionalist" Catholic churches are a thing. They're a splinter sect, not a branch of the capital-C Church. Send me a message when you want to...

            They'll end up having to create The True Catholic Church™.

            That is already an extant thing. Like I said, "Traditionalist" Catholic churches are a thing. They're a splinter sect, not a branch of the capital-C Church.

            Send me a message when you want to bring up capital punishment again. Hell, I think it'd even make a great thread of its own.

            3 votes
            1. [2]
              wise
              Link Parent
              One of my friends went to one of these: latin masses, everything after the second council of the Vatican is anti-pope, anti-catholic, etc. He was ordained there eventually, I think :-(

              One of my friends went to one of these: latin masses, everything after the second council of the Vatican is anti-pope, anti-catholic, etc. He was ordained there eventually, I think :-(

              3 votes
              1. Kijafa
                Link Parent
                I've never been, but growing up with a childhood steeped in Catholicism I've heard of them.

                I've never been, but growing up with a childhood steeped in Catholicism I've heard of them.

            2. Steppenfox
              Link Parent
              If you feel like having that thread, please message me! I've never heard an argument for capital punishment that I've found persuasive, but I'm interested.

              If you feel like having that thread, please message me! I've never heard an argument for capital punishment that I've found persuasive, but I'm interested.

              2 votes
          2. [5]
            Chopincakes
            Link Parent
            Based on what criteria? Have you seen/heard about the Catholic Workers? The works done by Jesuits? The Little Sisters of the Poor that essentially give free health care/food/shelter to the...

            The Catholic Church is already one of the most conservative Christian denominations around

            Based on what criteria? Have you seen/heard about the Catholic Workers? The works done by Jesuits? The Little Sisters of the Poor that essentially give free health care/food/shelter to the elderly? Liberation Theology?

            I'm a staunch socialist & athiest. But I have a mad respect for certain Catholics that are more "liberal" than many of the mainstream democrats. Many are even pro-choice. That said, "Catholicism" in the US is a widely defined term and many Catholics are in-name-only or are just straight up conservative christian cronies.

            1 vote
            1. [4]
              Algernon_Asimov
              Link Parent
              Please note: I did not write "the most conservative Christian denomination", I wrote "one of the most conservative Christian denominations". I fully acknowledge that there are more conservative...

              Please note: I did not write "the most conservative Christian denomination", I wrote "one of the most conservative Christian denominations". I fully acknowledge that there are more conservative Christian denominations than Catholicism but, in the context of there being many thousands of Christian denominations and many of those denominations being Protestant denominations of one kind or another, this puts Catholicism towards the conservative end of the spectrum of Christianity.

              2 votes
              1. [3]
                Chopincakes
                Link Parent
                Good call, I took it as an absolute statement, my bad. I still believe that it's somewhat of a spectrum that's hard to quantify. While there are many who fit the mold of extreme conservative...

                Good call, I took it as an absolute statement, my bad.

                I still believe that it's somewhat of a spectrum that's hard to quantify. While there are many who fit the mold of extreme conservative Christians who are catholic, there are also others who are more akin to the modern day democratic-socialists politically.

                1 vote
                1. [2]
                  Algernon_Asimov
                  Link Parent
                  That's what I figured. :) I'm talking about the official doctrine of each denomination (such as Catholicism), rather than individual personal interpretations of Christianity. I'm also not using...

                  Good call, I took it as an absolute statement, my bad.

                  That's what I figured. :)

                  While there are many who fit the mold of extreme conservative Christians who are catholic, there are also others who are more akin to the modern day democratic-socialists politically.

                  I'm talking about the official doctrine of each denomination (such as Catholicism), rather than individual personal interpretations of Christianity. I'm also not using "conservative" to describe political views, but to describe how closely a denomination tries to conserve the original meaning of the Bible, instead of changing with the times. For example, even though an individual Catholic might use birth control, that doesn't change the Catholic Church's official position that birth control is wrong. While the individual might be a reformative Christian, the Church they belong to is not.

                  I've noticed that many Catholics seem to have this double-think in place: they consider themselves Catholics even while they act against the Catholic Church's teachings.

                  2 votes
                  1. Chopincakes
                    Link Parent
                    Fair point, and I tend to agree, but I also just want to point out that there are a lot of internal theological debates about things things like supporting single-payer healthcare through a...

                    I've noticed that many Catholics seem to have this double-think in place: they consider themselves Catholics even while they act against the Catholic Church's teachings.

                    Fair point, and I tend to agree, but I also just want to point out that there are a lot of internal theological debates about things things like supporting single-payer healthcare through a theological lens, or being pro-choice with justifications from the bible, allowing women to be decons, etc. that kind of push at what is considered the dominate, conservative Catholic dogma. Thus, that can cause a lot of confusion in its practitioners.

                    1 vote
      2. [4]
        Gaywallet
        Link Parent
        Life in prison keeps a murderer away from everyone else, costs significantly less than the court proceedings to try them for capital punishment, and is more punishing than capital punishment...

        How? Murder is murder is murder. Whether I pull the trigger as a private citizen or as a government executioner, I'm still killing someone.

        Life in prison keeps a murderer away from everyone else, costs significantly less than the court proceedings to try them for capital punishment, and is more punishing than capital punishment (would you rather die, or be kept alive as a prisoner for the rest of your life?). Add this to the very real possibility of a trial finding the wrong verdict, and you have a compelling argument against capital punishment.

        After all, we still allow witness testimony, even though it's been proven to be pointless. We still have many corrupt cops who plant evidence, misrepresent facts, rely on imperfect memory, or simply have it out for certain genders, races, or other human features. We still put people on the stand with close to no evidence. We still do a trial by jury (not professional jurors) , which by definition cannot be representative of your peers for many minorities. We still have judges that are often politically biased or at least motivated. All of this is just scratching the surface of what's wrong with our system and you want to put people through this broken, imperfect system and allow it to decide whether people should live or die?

        2 votes
        1. [3]
          Flashynuff
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          I'm not the person you're replying to, but I definitely read the "Murder is murder is murder" statement as one that says state-sponsored killings are still murder -- so, I don't think they're in...

          you want to put people through this broken, imperfect system and allow it to decide whether people should live or die?

          I'm not the person you're replying to, but I definitely read the "Murder is murder is murder" statement as one that says state-sponsored killings are still murder -- so, I don't think they're in support of capital punishment.

          7 votes
          1. [2]
            Gaywallet
            Link Parent
            hmm maybe

            hmm maybe

            1. Algernon_Asimov
              Link Parent
              Hmm... definitely. I'm not quite sure how you got me being in favour of the government murdering people from what I wrote, but that's not the correct interpretation of my comment.

              Hmm... definitely.

              I'm not quite sure how you got me being in favour of the government murdering people from what I wrote, but that's not the correct interpretation of my comment.

              1 vote
    2. [2]
      demifiend
      Link Parent
      So would I. I even have a couple of suggestions: Say that war is murder, and that there is no such thing as a just war. End clerical celibacy Ordain women. Defrock all known or suspected child...

      Personally, I'm conflicted when it comes to capital punishment, both in the concept and the way it actually ends up going. But I'm glad to see Francis make some reforms. I'd like to see him make more.

      So would I. I even have a couple of suggestions:

      1. Say that war is murder, and that there is no such thing as a just war.
      2. End clerical celibacy
      3. Ordain women.
      4. Defrock all known or suspected child molesters and hand their names over to the relevant authorities.
      3 votes
      1. Kijafa
        Link Parent
        That would take an ecumenical council to do. Which I think a lot of Catholics are hoping for.

        That would take an ecumenical council to do. Which I think a lot of Catholics are hoping for.

        3 votes
  2. LordManley
    Link
    I am a huge fan of this.

    I am a huge fan of this.

    1 vote